Questions regarding 120hz LCD TV/Monitors

Hi. I noticed Newegg is now selling a 32" 120hz LCD TV for a really great price. The response rate is less than 3ms, which is pretty good.

To anybody here that owns a 120hz monitor/hdtv hooked up to their PC, are you able to choose 120hz for the refresh rate?

I've noticed that if you try to play a game with VSYNC enabled, the mouse or crosshair has a noticeable lag. I suspect it has something to do with the framerate being capped at 60fps. If the refresh rate is 120hz and you enable VSYNC, will the framerate be capped at 120fps? Also, will there be any mouse/crosshair lag or is that eliminated due to the high framerate?

If you own a 120hz LCD, can you tell me if it's worth it to buy a 120hz monitor over a 60hz for PC gaming, or does it not really matter?

Anything else I should know?

Thanks,
-Neil

If you can tell the difference hat's off to you, TV runs at 29 FPS

HDTV actually runs @ 60Hz for the most part (either 60 Fields Interlaced for 1080i which basically is 30FPS, or 60 Frames Progressive in 720P and 1080P).

The lag you are seeing is likely related to the TV's input processing (IE - The 120Hz frame rate processing done by fairly intense interpolation). Most TV's should have a "Game Mode" that bypasses any unneeded processing delays for as close to "realtime" as you can get.

The 120Hz panels will generally have a faster/quicker refresh rate - but that is by no means a "be-all end-all" for good looking video performance even when talking motion blur.

I have to admit I'm a bit out of the loop on V-Sync as I'm not a gamer - I just appreciate good true "un-hyped" video from any device that can reproduce it...

wingman99 said:

If you can tell the difference hat's off to you, TV runs at 29 FPS

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Well it's one of those things that requires scrutiny, or exactly the right conditions to notice. For instance, scrolling text from news stations looks WAY better on a 120hz display when you have a 60hz display sitting right next to it to compare.

But if you were watching an action packed movie with lots of motion blur and scene changes, you would have trouble telling them apart.

SDTVs generally are interlaced, which gives the impression of 60fps. The even lines show a slightly different image than the odd lines and when they alternate, it gives the appearance of 60fps. It's when you convert it to progressive scan that it loses half its speed and looks less fluid moving.

Ever since HDTVs first came out, there has been this collective consciousness driving (LCD) HDTVs towards higher refresh rates and it's due to HDTVs looking like they have lower framerate's than SDTVs. This is because HDTVs are generally progressive scan whereas SDTVs are interlaced.

The question is, will I notice a huge difference between a 60hz LCD and a 120hz LCD for PC gaming? I've never actually seen or used a 120hz display in this way so I am curious if the extra hz improves VSYNC / reduces mouse lag/delay.

Well it all depends on the frame buffer if your getting mouse lag. FPS is all depending on the game speed most modern first person shooters are made to run on systems that run 30-60 FPS, the old Quake games you could use near 80-100 FPS if your monitor will refresh at that rate.

QUOTE: The designed frame rates of real-time systems vary depending on the equipment. For a real-time system that is steering an oil tanker, a frame rate of 1 Hz may be sufficient, while a rate of even 100 Hz may not be adequate for steering a guided missile. The designer must choose a frame rate appropriate to the application's requirements.

QUOTE: How many frames per second can the human eye see

However, this question also does not have a single straightforward answer. If the image switches between black and white each frame, the image appears to flicker at frame rates slower than 30 FPS. In other words, the flicker-fusion point, where the eyes see gray instead of flickering tends to be around 60 Hz. However, fast moving objects may require higher frame rates to avoid judder (non-smooth motion) artifacts—and the retinal fusion point can vary in different people, as in different lighting conditions. The flicker-fusion point can only be applied to digital images of absolute values, such as black and white. Where as a more analogous representation can run at lower frame rates, and still be percieved by a viewer. For example, motion blurring in digital games allows the frame rate to be lowered, while the human perception of motion remains unaffected. This would be the equivalent of introducing shades of gray into the black-white flicker.

LINK: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frame_rate

Well it all depends on the frame buffer if your getting mouse lag. FPS is all depending on the game speed most modern first person shooters are made to run on systems that run 30-60 FPS, the old Quake games you could use near 80-100 FPS if your monitor will refresh at that rate.

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The question is, if the hz is 120 and I have VSYNC enabled, would the framerate cap at 120 and would this eliminate any mouse lag/delay? Framebuffer aside, I understand that. A few frames are delayed, but with such a high framerate, would that delay become insignificant?

I am curious if someone actually owns a 120hz monitor and can or has already tested this. I love VSYNC because it prevent screen tearing. I've always assumed the reason there is mouse lag is due to the framerate capping at 60fps. If the framerate was higher, maybe there wouldn't be any mouse lag?

This is something that can't be speculated, it has to be tested by somebody that actually owns a 120hz monitor and has a first person shooter or something similar that requires mouse movement.

I'm assuming you are referring to TRUE 120Hz panels that support 120Hz INPUTS - so you're not asking about an LCD TV that accepts 1080P/60 but then interpolates to 120Hz (like most 120Hz LCD TV's that aren't "3D TV's" do today). You're basically talking about a 3D TV IIRC, as I don't kow of any other LCD's that accept 120Hz inputs...

The lag will be caused by the TV's processing - "Game Mode" will disable any post-processing and frame-rate interpolation to give you less lag time (latency).

Also - OT - HDTV's are actually 60Hz - as 720P is not intelaced - it is 60FPS Progressive - and BluRay is 1080P 60FPS Progressive (or 24P). No interlacing going on then - and even 1080i signals are generally de-interlaced and displayed as 30-FPS progressive images on the panel (you'll still see interlacing artifacts if the material was shot interlaced). LCD's generally don't display interlaced images - they must be de-interlaced proir to being sent to the panel via the TV's internal processing and scaling...

Neillithan said:

The question is, if the hz is 120 and I have VSYNC enabled, would the framerate cap at 120 and would this eliminate any mouse lag/delay? Framebuffer aside, I understand that. A few frames are delayed, but with such a high framerate, would that delay become insignificant?

I am curious if someone actually owns a 120hz monitor and can or has already tested this. I love VSYNC because it prevent screen tearing. I've always assumed the reason there is mouse lag is due to the framerate capping at 60fps. If the framerate was higher, maybe there wouldn't be any mouse lag?

This is something that can't be speculated, it has to be tested by somebody that actually owns a 120hz monitor and has a first person shooter or something similar that requires mouse movement.

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Yep, a true 120hz monitor will let you select 120hz with vsync on, and yes, it does noticeably reduce tearing and lag. So far there are only a few panels that'll work this way, but more are coming soon. A bargain 32" '120hz' TV won't do it.

Personally I'm very curious if the http://www.samsung.com/us/consumer/...R2FXZA/index.idx?pagetype=prd_detail&tab=spec will support a 120hz input signal even during 2D use.

Neillithan said:

The question is, if the hz is 120 and I have VSYNC enabled, would the framerate cap at 120 and would this eliminate any mouse lag/delay? Framebuffer aside, I understand that. A few frames are delayed, but with such a high framerate, would that delay become insignificant?

I am curious if someone actually owns a 120hz monitor and can or has already tested this. I love VSYNC because it prevent screen tearing. I've always assumed the reason there is mouse lag is due to the framerate capping at 60fps. If the framerate was higher, maybe there wouldn't be any mouse lag?

This is something that can't be speculated, it has to be tested by somebody that actually owns a 120hz monitor and has a first person shooter or something similar that requires mouse movement.

Click to expand...

No I have a CRT monitor that does 85Hz and I don't receive mouse lag at 30 FPS and 85 FPS, I play is first person shooters and racing games that are more demanding than first person shooters at the controllers.

The only time I have ever had mouse lag, is when using a greatly under powered CPU or Video card or ATI drivers were messed up.

There is a easy way to test if you are having driver problems or hardware or FPS problems. Just lower all you settings in the game to minim and see if you have mouse lag.

Since 120Hz is not an "official" 2D HDTV standard - I'd doubt any 3D TV's will run 120Hz in 2D mode - but it is certainly a possibility if it becomes a standard.

The CRT didn't have any digital front-end circuitry needed to re-scale and interpolate the signal to fit a pre-defined digital panel resolution. Every LCD monitor will have a certain amount of latency - the ones that won't allow disabling this "enhancement/Interpolaton" circuitry WILL introduce noticable lag - it's the nature of the scaling and interpolation of digital panels (analog CRT's did not have any of this digital processing as the CRT itself is analog). The ones that do allow you to defeat this processing will still have a tiny lag as it's digitial (likely imperceptible - but present none the less)...

Man. When are people going to realize that 60hz input simply isn't enough for PC gaming with a mouse?

If the only true 120hz monitors are 3D and they do not allow you to choose 120hz for 2D needs, then that would be the biggest oversight/ripoff. It's like a conspiracy. lol

Your the only one I ever seen with a mouse lag problem around the hole world, blaming it on 60 FPS LOL. I think you need to check your system over.

wingman99 said:

Your the only one I ever seen with a mouse lag problem around the hole world, blaming it on 60 FPS LOL. I think you need to check your system over.

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Ask ANYBODY who plays a first person shooter competitively if they use VSYNC and they will say NO. It's because VSYNC creates a small, yet annoying delay for aiming.

This happens on CRTS and LCDs...

CRTs generally only go up to 85hz... LCDs up to 60... but now with the advent of 120hz lcds, that issue may go away. MAYBE.

Input lag - the problem monitor manufacturers won't mention

LINK:
If it's not your monitor try triple buffered frame with Vsync will be a maximum of 3.3ms of input latency.