[SteveLord]

http://economyincrisis.org/content/c...-factory-close

After receiving billions in loan guarantees from the federal government and benefiting from high praise from the president himself, a Silicon Valley company that specializes in manufacturing solar panels plans to shutter one of its two factories and lay off hundreds of workers, according to multiple media reports.

Solyndra announced on Wednesday that roughly 190 workers would soon become part of the nation’s millions of unemployed after a factory closing. The company blamed increased competition from low-cost manufacturers in China.

“There is a clear need for more aggressive pricing. This plan allows us to stay very competitive,” the company said in a statement. “We expect this plan will allow us to double shipments next year and take us to cash-flow positive by the end of 2011.”

In May, the company received praise from the president during a tour of a new, state of the art facility partially financed by the federal government through a Department of Energy loan.

"The promise of clean energy isn't just an article of faith," Obama said at the time. "It's not just some abstract possibility for science fiction movies or a distant future or 10 years down the road or 20 years, it's happening right now. The future is here."

When applying for the $535 load, which covered nearly 75 percent of the cost of the new facility, the company said that it had plans to expand its workforce. It also said that it would double its production in the next two years. Now, neither of those will occur. In fact, Solyndra’s production is expected to be around half of what was originally predicted.

According to the company, shuttering the factory and cutting the nearly 200 jobs would save the company $60 million.

The company blames much of its financial troubles on competition from Chinese competitors that have much lower production costs and may even be illegally subsidized.

Last month, the U.S. Trade Representative’s Office announced that it would launch an investigation into the matter after the United Steelworkers filed a trade complaint alleging that China has used illegal tactics under World Trade Organization rules in order to shut foreign competitors out of the rapidly expanding clean energy market. At the same time, China has used similar policies to block the export of raw materials needed to produce the clean energy products.

The complaint says that China has pumped $216 billion worth of subsidies into the green energy sector, displacing countless American workers.
In August, it was announced that China is outpacing America in clean energy production. China currently produces about half of the world’s demand for equipment used in building solar panels and wind turbines. China and its companies, heavily subsidized by their government, invested more than $30 billion in 2009 to produce energy technology designed to lower carbon dioxide emission.

“The USW has raised issues covering a wide array of Chinese government policies affecting trade and investment in green technologies. This is a vitally important sector for the United States. Green technology will be an engine for the jobs of the future, and this Administration is committed to ensuring a level playing field for American workers, businesses and green technology entrepreneurs,” United States Trade Representative Ron Kirk said in a statement.

Well there went a lot of hope and promises....and oh yeah...tax dollars.

[X0d1@k]

Who can afford Solar Panels in this country at a time when 1 in 10 are out of work (VERY-conservative estimate), 1 in 6 dollars spent in the US coming from Government assisted programs (welfare, unemployment, social security), and the foreclosure rates on homes are still free falling?

Something needs to be done thats for sure, but even if a miraculous invention comes about, a big energy giant will just gobble up the technology. Same old song and dance, look at Big Oil, they have been doing that for years. No big industry is just going to say "Oh, you make our industry obsolete, i guess we will just pack up and go home."

Its sick, but true.

[Archer0915]

So much that could be, so much we wont see.
The money writes the rules as the people play the fools.

[xoke]

Originally Posted by X0d1@k

Who can afford Solar Panels in this country at a time when 1 in 10 are out of work (VERY-conservative estimate), 1 in 6 dollars spent in the US coming from Government assisted programs (welfare, unemployment, social security), and the foreclosure rates on homes are still free falling?

Something needs to be done thats for sure, but even if a miraculous invention comes about, a big energy giant will just gobble up the technology. Same old song and dance, look at Big Oil, they have been doing that for years. No big industry is just going to say "Oh, you make our industry obsolete, i guess we will just pack up and go home."

Its sick, but true.

I had a great big rant all typed up to respond to this...but I'm going to try and let it go. Wooosaaaa....wooosaaaa.

If these green business models made money, they wouldn't being going out of business. If these green companies were even remotely feasible, there would be solar panels on every roof and a windmill on every corner. They get big help from the government and they fail. Look at Ethanol. Meanwhile "big evil oil" is the government and the press's industrial whipping boy and it still survives. Weird. It survives and it brings you a gallon of gas at a cheaper price than a gallon of milk.

I work for Wind Companies and Oil Companies. I'm not going to name them, but that is what I do. One gets taxed to death at every turn and treated like crap, one gets a subsidy and good press...but won't start a new project until the government forces yet another evil energy company to built them infrastructure. It is insanity.

When the technology is there...I'm sure the green companies will soon follow. We aren't there yet. I know the idea of a solar panel or a windmill makes everyone feel all warm and fuzzy inside...but there is still that little thing called reality. As soon as the federal government starts living in it...everything will get better for everyone.

Green Jobs in Spain...

After the government of Jose Luis Rodriguez Zapatero demonized a study by various experts on the economic downsides of renewable energies, it just leaked an internal document from the Spanish cabinet which is even more negative.
Among the findings, paraphrased from the right sidebar:
* Green energy is 120 percent more expensive, simply due to the extra costs of solar and wind, and the evolution of the market is not going to bring down those costs any time soon.
* The clean energy sector is slated to receive 126 billion euros in the next 25 years, but no one knows where the money is going to come from . In 2009, the subsidies were worth 5 billion euros.
* Photovoltaic solar power accounts for 53 percent of the extra cost of renewables, whereas it produces only 11 percent of Spain's renewable energy.
* Each "green job" comes at the expense of 2.2 traditional jobs.

Wooosaaa...

For the record, I'm not saying solar or wind is a bad idea. I'm saying that once its feasible the government won't have to subsidize or mandate it.

[SteveLord]

Haven't we been fed the last 2 years that we need to spend and spend on GREEN? And that GREEN jobs were the future of the job market?

Well...I guess technically the term "future" could be either a second or a century.

[X0d1@k]

xokeman:

I didnt know "Big Evil Oil" created the infrastructure for the "Green" companies.I honestly didnt. Do they do that for a tax-write off? Im sure they do not do it out of the kindness of their hearts right?

What I was saying is that, there have been many inventions/ technologies, where modified cars get much better gas mileage, and these technologies never see the light of day, gimmie that will ya? "Big Evil Oil" will not benefit if they release technologies that makes gas more efficient, would they?

Much of the Green Movement seems to be centered around taxing the planet, and for whom? It will not do squat for the environment, if the technology is not there, which i agree. Even if the tech was there, someone Big Corporation will scoop it up, as another revenue stream right?

I guess i might have opened my mouth and inserted my foot, but i hope this better explains my stance. Its actually helping me develop a clearer understanding of it all.

Thanks for your info.

[SteveLord]

Originally Posted by X0d1@k

xokeman:

I didnt know "Big Evil Oil" created the infrastructure for the "Green" companies.I honestly didnt. Do they do that for a tax-write off? Im sure they do not do it out of the kindness of their hearts right?

What I was saying is that, there have been many inventions/ technologies, where modified cars get much better gas mileage, and these technologies never see the light of day, gimmie that will ya? "Big Evil Oil" will not benefit if they release technologies that makes gas more efficient, would they?

Well...it DID take the collapse of GM and Chrysler for them to realize "Omg...we REALLY need to start making cars that aren't junk and can actually get 30+ mpg like Toyota and Honda!" All of the sudden, they magically appear!

Except Chrysler cars are still junk (minus maybe the Dodge Ram).

[Archer0915]

Originally Posted by xokeman

I had a great big rant all typed up to respond to this...but I'm going to try and let it go. Wooosaaaa....wooosaaaa.

If these green business models made money, they wouldn't being going out of business. If these green companies were even remotely feasible, there would be solar panels on every roof and a windmill on every corner. They get big help from the government and they fail. Look at Ethanol. Meanwhile "big evil oil" is the government and the press's industrial whipping boy and it still survives. Weird. It survives and it brings you a gallon of gas at a cheaper price than a gallon of milk.

I work for Wind Companies and Oil Companies. I'm not going to name them, but that is what I do. One gets taxed to death at every turn and treated like crap, one gets a subsidy and good press...but won't start a new project until the government forces yet another evil energy company to built them infrastructure. It is insanity.

When the technology is there...I'm sure the green companies will soon follow. We aren't there yet. I know the idea of a solar panel or a windmill makes everyone feel all warm and fuzzy inside...but there is still that little thing called reality. As soon as the federal government starts living in it...everything will get better for everyone.

Green Jobs in Spain...


Wooosaaa...

For the record, I'm not saying solar or wind is a bad idea. I'm saying that once its feasible the government won't have to subsidize or mandate it.

Alternative power does work but it is costly. ~70G to take my house off the grid and feed back a little.

As far as "big evil oil" well there is some truth to that but like every other truth it gets twisted so much that it becomes more than it is. I think one thing people need to remember is that these are businesses out to make a profit not a charity.

I still don't like the record profits at time when we are supposedly having a crisis of sorts though.

Note: Denmark gets ~20% of its power from the wind and solar does work but it is not the cats meow.

[xoke]

Originally Posted by X0d1@k

xokeman:

I didnt know "Big Evil Oil" created the infrastructure for the "Green" companies.I honestly didnt. Do they do that for a tax-write off? Im sure they do not do it out of the kindness of their hearts right?

What I was saying is that, there have been many inventions/ technologies, where modified cars get much better gas mileage, and these technologies never see the light of day, gimmie that will ya? "Big Evil Oil" will not benefit if they release technologies that makes gas more efficient, would they?

Much of the Green Movement seems to be centered around taxing the planet, and for whom? It will not do squat for the environment, if the technology is not there, which i agree. Even if the tech was there, someone Big Corporation will scoop it up, as another revenue stream right?

I guess i might have opened my mouth and inserted my foot, but i hope this better explains my stance. Its actually helping me develop a clearer understanding of it all.

Thanks for your info.

Not exactly. Sorry I snapped, I work for "small oil" and it simply amazes me how misunderstood my industry is. If I came across overly rude that was not my intention.

First off wind farms. There are two of them within 15 miles of my house. I live in Kansas. My company actually landed the contract (we do legal work concerning land ownership/leasing for wind and oil) to double the amount of mills on the north one. It got delayed for two years...know why? About 50 miles away another company wanted to build a coal power electric plant. The state of Kansas under Kathleen Sebilius (now our heath care "zar") stopped the plants construction until the "evil" dirty coal company agreed to spend their money to add infrastructure (transmission lines, big ones) and basically help out the wind farm.

Thats just an example...it's slightly more complicated than that...but the point is that solar and wind are not economically feasible enough to work without government intervention.


As to your idea stealing. I will be the first to admit that big oil, hell, big anything buys ideas...or patents on new technology. That is where the intentions are lost. Bear with me...I have to give you a hypothetical...

Lets say you dream up the next revolutionary thing in solar power. You develop the idea for a "widget" that makes solar power very efficient. You patent said idea. Some rich guy from big oil thinks you might be on to something...so they offer to buy your patent. They give you a million dollars.

Now, they have two options...

They can sit on that patent, not develop the idea and keep raking in cash from oil, and keep on doing what they are doing. Understand, that I, them, nor Exxon, nor BP, none of the "free market" oil companies have a rat's ass say in what the price of oil is. OPEC sets the price of oil. It's a global market. A single oil company has no more effect on the price of oil then you would have an effect on the price of a given CPU if you bought 100 of them to effect the market...supply is supply, demand is demand...a single oil company is small beans. A national oil company, Venezuela, Russia, Saudi Arabia...those are the cats that can change the cost of oil. (Non nationalized oil companies are less than 10% of global oil production. Exxon, while huge...isn't a drop in the bucket compared to Saudi Arabia. Exxon could turn off every well they have tomorrow and the price (actual not speculated) of a barrel might go up $5...maybe.)

The other possibility is they would develop your new technology and revolutionize the world solar industry making billions of dollars to boot. They could monopolize the entire world solar industry with your widget...and still make money on oil for many years...and you think they would sit on it? Imagine how much money is on the table there, a complete solar monopoly..no company would pass that up. Even while pushing this new product they still be selling oil for centuries. We like money, and profits, and I'm pretty sure we would develop pig poop if there was tons of money in it.


Anyways, sorry I snapped. I just hear it all the time and it gets old. I wish we could go to solar and wind completely, would be nice to break our dependency on foreign countries that for the most part really don't care for us. It just isn't going to happen with out some kind of revolution in the green industry.



All that isn't really the root of my frustration....This where I get really pissy. The government doesn't come up with ideas. They can't buy them, they can't implement them, and they cant poop them out of thin air. People come up with ideas...Bill Gates, that Facebook dude, Howard Hughes (it was actually an oil well drill bit that made his family rich...they didn't sell the patent, they rented it out...genius)...those people make ideas...not the government. Look at the OP...we all paid out the butt for that, your dollars and mine...for what? Nothing! A good idea doesn't need help. Popular things are popular, because they are by definition...not because government says it should be.

The government gives us great stuff like USPS, Ethanol, and Amtrak, etc...all of which are in the red.

Individuals give us Fed Ex, Exxon, and Ford...all of which turn a profit an a return on investment.


Think about this for a second...I'm of the age where cell phones existed, but where not popular when I was in high school. Think Zach Morris phones, lol. Well those phones costed $500-$600 dollars back in the day and they were the size of a brick. I didn't have one...go figure.

What if the government had come along and said "hey...cell phones are a good idea, we think everyone should have a cell phone. Well, $500 dollars is a bit much for the average American...and since cell phones are so important companies making them are only allowed to charge $200 dollars for them and can only make a very tiny profit."

Short Term: Great! Now cell phones are only $250 and lots of people are rushing out to get them. Good job government. Short term win...somebody got elected on that POS idea.

Long Term: Since there is no real market incentive to make cell phones not many companies are doing this. Without profit they lose motivation for R&D. They just keep trudging along making the same damn Zack Morris phones. We would still be using them today...and that big crappy phone would still cost the mandated $250...prolly more with inflation.


^^^Thank goodness that didn't happen. Thank goodness the government stayed out. Since there was profit to be made hundreds of companies jumped into the mobile market! Some charged less....some charged more for a superior product. Hundreds of cell phones of all shapes and sizes flooded the market and the competition has been fierce ever since. Sure, some phones still cost $500...but with the free market you can also go to Wal-Mart and buy a working cellular phone for $17.95.

Think about that. You can buy a working cellular phone, for $17. Speaking for my generation, we couldn't have imagined buying a cell phone for that.

I'm just grumpy. When did profit and success become dirty words in this country?

/rant, lol

[Omsion]

Just wanted to point out that while it's definitely true that most green energy (one exception being Brazilian sugarcane ethanol) is not competitive on a price basis with fossil fuels at this current point in time, it's slightly unfair to paint a picture where only greens are getting subsidized. The energy market is stuffed with all kinds of subsidies all over the place (especially globally). This doesn't change the overall picture any, and green would still be more expensive, but you have to be fair(ish).


Also, in this particular case, Solyndra's customer's aren't even looking at fossil fuels. Their problem isn't that solar is more expensive than fossil fuels - their customers are already willing to take the higher cost - but rather the fact that the Chinese are doing it cheaper.


EDIT:

Originally Posted by xokeman

All that isn't really the root of my frustration....This where I get really pissy. The government doesn't come up with ideas. They can't buy them, they can't implement them, and they cant poop them out of thin air. People come up with ideas...Bill Gates, that Facebook dude, Howard Hughes (it was actually an oil well drill bit that made his family rich...they didn't sell the patent, they rented it out...genius)...those people make ideas...not the government. Look at the OP...we all paid out the butt for that, your dollars and mine...for what? Nothing! A good idea doesn't need help. Popular things are popular, because they are by definition...not because government says it should be.

That is true - people come up with ideas. But research costs money. Sometimes the private sector funds the research. Sometimes the government ends up footing the bill. Sometimes you want the government to nudge research in an area the private sector is uninterested in.

And again, the problem in this case isn't that Solyndra's research/tech/ideas are crap. Their goal was to make cheaper solar tech on a new process. Unfortunately for them, they're being undercut by even bigger subsidies on more traditional manufacturing processes in China.

I certainly agree that green isn't going to get bigger until they become more competitive (or far more likely fossil fuels get much more expensive). But if the US wants development of these technologies to happen in the US and not elsewhere, it's only going to happen at this time with government help for that exact reason.

[xoke]

Originally Posted by Omsion

Just wanted to point out that while it's definitely true that most green energy (one exception being Brazilian sugarcane ethanol) is not competitive on a price basis with fossil fuels at this current point in time, it's slightly unfair to paint a picture where only greens are getting subsidized. The energy market is stuffed with all kinds of subsidies all over the place (especially globally). This doesn't change the overall picture any, and green would still be more expensive, but you have to be fair(ish).


Also, in this particular case, Solyndra's customer's aren't even looking at fossil fuels. Their problem isn't that solar is more expensive than fossil fuels - their customers are already willing to take the higher cost - but rather the fact that the Chinese are doing it cheaper.


EDIT:
That is true - people come up with ideas. But research costs money. Sometimes the private sector funds the research. Sometimes the government ends up footing the bill. Sometimes you want the government to nudge research in an area the private sector is uninterested in.

And again, the problem in this case isn't that Solyndra's research/tech/ideas are crap. Their goal was to make cheaper solar tech on a new process. Unfortunately for them, they're being undercut by even bigger subsidies on more traditional manufacturing processes in China.

I certainly agree that green isn't going to get bigger until they become more competitive (or far more likely fossil fuels get much more expensive). But if the US wants development of these technologies to happen in the US and not elsewhere, it's only going to happen with government help for that exact reason.

I agree with most of that except the nudge. The free market needs no nudging. If there is money to be made at something...someone will figure out a way to capitalize on it and bring it to market. Whatever it may be. The cheaper labor overseas is an issue of it's self. Tons of our industry is gone...and I have my own personal opinions on that. I'll give you the short answer though...the government chased a lot of them out.

I don't like government nudges. They never end well...see the OP^^^. There was a time when the only heating lighting oil we had was from whales. Whales got short in supply...prices went up...and some red neck in Pennsylvania found some black goop in his backyard. He lit it on fire and said holy cow...I have an idea. That company was Standard Oil.

The free market always works if you leave it alone. No nudging!


I need to add a caveat to that last statement...the free market always works in a society where contract law is enforced. Didn't want anyone thinking I'm for corporate anarchy or something, lol.

[Bobnova]

Originally Posted by Archer0915

Alternative power does work but it is costly. ~70G to take my house off the grid and feed back a little.

This is an excellent example of the main problem with "green power".
How much money are you saving per year?



My big issue with it, personally, is that it's not especially green. Solar panels are an environmental disaster to make, especially the made in china flavors given china's track record of environmental stuff.

Wind power requires constant maintenance and oil changes and such.

Hydro dams trash the river something fierce.

And it goes on and on and on.
The least damaging to the environment IMO is nuclear, especially given use of the reactors that burn "spent" fuel rods and/or thorium. Hell at this point they'd make for a cleaner environment by burning up the old spent fuel!

[madhatter256]

solar panels work half of the time, they are not a true replacement or a reliable source. also, battery technology is just not there yet

[xoke]

Originally Posted by Bobnova

This is an excellent example of the main problem with "green power".
How much money are you saving per year?



My big issue with it, personally, is that it's not especially green. Solar panels are an environmental disaster to make, especially the made in china flavors given china's track record of environmental stuff.

Wind power requires constant maintenance and oil changes and such.

Hydro dams trash the river something fierce.

And it goes on and on and on.
The least damaging to the environment IMO is nuclear, especially given use of the reactors that burn "spent" fuel rods and/or thorium. Hell at this point they'd make for a cleaner environment by burning up the old spent fuel!

Slightly on topic...slightly off topic... what do you all suppose the environmental impact is going to be from the hundreds of thousands of pounds of spent lithium batteries that are eventually going to start dying in all of these Hybrid (read as: pregnant roller skate) cars.

I really have no clue...but I can't imagine it will be pretty.

[Archer0915]

Originally Posted by xokeman

Slightly on topic...slightly off topic... what do you all suppose the environmental impact is going to be from the hundreds of thousands of pounds of spent lithium batteries that are eventually going to start dying in all of these Hybrid (read as: pregnant roller skate) cars.

I really have no clue...but I can't imagine it will be pretty.

IDK When I said off grid I meant basically a hybrid thing. Generate enough power (I calculated 40% of the time) to feed my home and sell back during the day to offset usage at night. I never really considered batteries and that would ass a chunk to that 70.

I pay ~350 a month so taking my house completely off grid would cost me about 600 per month for about 15 years. Now all of this is without any incentives. I could get the full treatment for less that half out of pocket.

So in actuality we are looking at low additional monthly cost if I could have a surplus.

[Bobnova]

Originally Posted by xokeman

Hybrid (read as: pregnant roller skate) cars.

Oh man, that's the funniest thing i've heard/read all day.


If they're recycled and the recycling process is good, it shouldn't be too bad, but i imagine it is, yet again, in china.

[Shiggity]

Solyndra had a very specialized product that didn't work in most places. Their whole thing was a very custom made cylindrical solar cell that was way too expensive to make with the benefit of being that it was really 'cheap' to install. (Installation is a major cost of solar).

It just didn't pan out for them, and not every company the government invests in with loan guarentees will hit a home run, that's just common sense.

As far as solar being viable, it's only economically viable in places with net metering that get over ~280 days of solid sunshine a year. But saying it's not viable anywhere is silly. California, Nevada, Colorado, New Mexico, Texas, Arizona, and New Jersey are the main states where solar works. (New Jersey because they have crazy tax breaks and benefits for it and a suprisingly large amount of sunny days a year).


As far as all renewables go, Geothermal is the most underrated of them all. WAY cheaper than nuke and 24/7 baseload while being considerably safer. Yeah it won't work everywhere, but it will work in a lot more places than people think with new tech being developed.

Southwest = solar, Midwest = wind/biomass, Northeast = offshore wind, Northwest = offshore wind and on land wind.


The ability to be free from your utility is worth a lot more to some people that just pure economics of solar vs. coal or natural gas. The ability to 'lock' in your price over 20 years through certain programs is very enticing, you don't have to worry about your utility 'lol increasing rates yet again'.

[QuietIce]

Originally Posted by Omsion

Also, in this particular case, Solyndra's customer's aren't even looking at fossil fuels. Their problem isn't that solar is more expensive than fossil fuels - their customers are already willing to take the higher cost - but rather the fact that the Chinese are doing it cheaper.

And that's the biggest point that everyone seems to be skipping around. The company is having problems because of (possibly illegal) competition from China, not from lack of interest in solar. And if the Chinese government is investing heavily in solar and passing that on to the world market then it's against international trade laws.

Instead of arguing over the issue of solar v other energy sources why not ask yourself why the Chinese government is investing money in this stuff? You think they're just tossing money out the window, too? Considering some of their other "green energy" investments of the past few years I highly doubt it. (They recently finished building the largest hydro-electric dam in the world.) Regardless of what you may think of China one thing seems clear. Their politicians aren't out to make votes by their actions and Chinese industry isn't wasting their time on pie-in-the-sky projects. To ignore what China is doing is like ignoring Japan 40 years ago.

Originally Posted by xoke

Tons of our industry is gone...and I have my own personal opinions on that. I'll give you the short answer though...the government chased a lot of them out.

I don't want to get started on what I think THAT topic is about but let me give you a hint. I grew up within a mile of a steel plant and we were usually downwind. If that's where your thoughts were headed I invite you to experience the same environment I did the first 20 years of my life before you go off half-cocked about the EPA ...

[Archer0915]

China, China, China. Americans want good jobs paying top dollar yet they are so cheap that they won't buy products to support their own greed (American products). Jobs go out and cheap products come in.

The majority in this country deserves what they get. Low paying jobs in retail selling products to the unemployed welfare recipients that cant find a job.

[hafa]

Solar energy is a viable technology in those geographic areas where it's practical (Alaska is NOT a candidate). We've been off-grid for years and although we bought in when it was expensive (see below) it will eventually pay for itself.

There was massive demand and little supply of panels as recently as three years ago. The Chinese, understanding/predicting these market dynamics developed/ramped up their production with astonishing speed, saturating the market with cheap panels. As a result, panels from US, Japanese, European and Korean manufacturers have dropped in price by 55% in only 3 years, making them competitive with those from China.

In the retail market, availability of Chinese panels is now very good (~30% of market vs < 3% 3 years ago), while some companies such as Evergreen (US) and Kyocera (Korea) have dropped out of the retail market entirely, preferring to supply orders to those states and municipalities that place orders in excess of 10,000 panels.

While significantly cheaper panels are making the technology more available to consumers, it's also putting pressure on those companies whose lack of foresight/good management put them in unsupportable financial situations.

Storage remains the weak spot in the realm of alternative home energy (current lead acid battery technology costs about $20 /KWH). One bright note pertaining to this is the recent announcement of a breakthrough in solid sodium ion batteries that promise 20KWH of storage at a measly 3 cents/KWH. My fingers are crossed on this one...