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Old 04-30-12, 10:31 PM   #161
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Hmmmm, I think you're getting into physics there..... I don't quite get it, but thats ok..... I know you're right.

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Old 04-30-12, 10:32 PM   #162
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Here we go again with the thermodynamics better step out

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Old 04-30-12, 10:34 PM   #163
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Hmmmm, I think you're getting into physics there..... I don't quite get it, but thats ok..... I know you're right.
I think what Mattno5ss is trying to say (in a far more correct and accurate way) is, wattage will dictate how much heat is put into your room. not CPU temps... correct?

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Old 04-30-12, 10:35 PM   #164
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^^^ Lol, I understand. I'll leave that stuff to those smarter than I. In those instances I like the dumbed down answers....

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Old 04-30-12, 10:35 PM   #165
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These guys did a similar test, looks like the core just runs hot period
http://www.overclock.net/t/1249419/p...ed-without-ihs
There are a few problems with that testing, Brolloks. First, they didn't compensate as far as I can tell on the mounting height difference, which might be making for less mounting tension. And mainly, he isn't soldering the heatsink to the die but rather he is just mounting it to the bare die with regular TIM. And I don't know how much experience you have had mounting a large, heavy heatsink to a bare die processor, but when they get as large as something like the NH-D14 on a fairly narrow core such as the IB core, it's a bit of a crapshoot to get it mounted perfectly flush.I wonder what they would have seen if they replaced the paste with something like Indigo Extreme and properly cured it if the temps would look any better. Or use the Indigo Extreme between the core and IHS and re-lid the processor. That wouldn't be nearly as good as Intel's Indium solder job but I would think it would be better than that paste Intel is using.
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Old 04-30-12, 10:37 PM   #166
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Ok, methinks its time for me to Google "Indigo Extreme"

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Old 04-30-12, 10:38 PM   #167
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Very true mudd, thanks for the insight, makes perfect sense

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Old 04-30-12, 10:43 PM   #168
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Yeah, I went through the whole mounting a large heatsink (Zalman 7700) on a bare die Pentium M back in the day of the CT-479 socket adapters. It was real tricky with that large heatsink to get it mounted squarely on that little square core and the Zalman 7700 isn't nearly as massive as a D14. I'm thinking that Intel either had problems with this new core process and the Indium soldering process or they just decided that "just good enough and cheap" would do just fine this time around.
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Old 04-30-12, 10:48 PM   #169
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Hmmmm, how does this Indigo Xtreme stuff work on regular chips? Is there any noticeable drop in temps from my trusty old AS Ceramique?

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Old 04-30-12, 10:51 PM   #170
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I'm not a guru at thermodynamics by any stretch.... I know a little about a lot and a lot about a nothing

Typically, as energy increases, molecular motion increases. However, the rate at which increasing energy increases molecular motion will determine how high temps will get and how fast they will get there.

Here are four theoretical situations:
  • High wattage and slow molecular motion = high heat and low temps
  • High wattage and fast molecular motion = high heat and high temps
  • Low wattage and fast molecular motion = low heat and high temps
  • Low wattage and slow molecular motion = low heat and low temps
I believe Ivy falls into the third situation.

Indigo could be very difficult to impossible to apply to a bare die since the applications are sold in sizes to match specific CPU sizes, and they need to be applied a certain way or it screws it up. I haven't personally dealt with it because of those issues, but maybe someone with experience can chime in

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Old 04-30-12, 10:54 PM   #171
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Hey, you've now given me stuff I understand with those 4 situations. Sweet!

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Old 04-30-12, 11:09 PM   #172
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Yeah, I haven't messed with it either Matt. And I know they come in certain sizes for the particular IHS it is made for too. And I have doubts on it's temp ceiling being a bit low too, since you make it phase change around 90-100 C. But it's the only commercially available product I can think of that comes close to Intel's soldering process.
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Old 04-30-12, 11:12 PM   #173
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I'm just totally dumbstruck why Intel would use such a crappy thermal interface job with a 3rd generation CPU, especially given the fact that with a die shrink you temp to get thermal issues.

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Old 04-30-12, 11:14 PM   #174
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Nah, I think its simple. The chip will run at the speeds they set without hurting them and will perform better than AMD's current best. There's absolutely no reason for them to improve on this right now. It's simply a case of what happens when there's no competition.

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Old 04-30-12, 11:25 PM   #175
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Solder keeps temps under TJmax and is expensive.
TIM keeps temps under TJmax and is cheap.

So both work perfectly fine for the CPU, which means they will go the cheaper route.

It would be fun trying to come up with a way to get Indigo installed on a bare die. It's just a little expensive for trial and error though...lol.

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Old 05-01-12, 12:38 AM   #176
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Hi guys,

What seems to be the average oc range of IB and temps? I was thinking of going with a 2600/2700k and hoping for 4.8ghz, currently I have a 2500k at 4.8ghz 1.408v. BUT since temps dont seem sooooo (not great but anyways) bad with ivy I would really want at least a 4.6ghz If I switch, just curious if most of you guys are getting stable there and what the temps are. Current cooling setup keeps my 2500k @ 1.408v prime stable at 69C with ambient around 74F right now.

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Old 05-01-12, 07:13 AM   #177
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Hi guys,

What seems to be the average oc range of IB and temps? I was thinking of going with a 2600/2700k and hoping for 4.8ghz, currently I have a 2500k at 4.8ghz 1.408v. BUT since temps dont seem sooooo (not great but anyways) bad with ivy I would really want at least a 4.6ghz If I switch, just curious if most of you guys are getting stable there and what the temps are. Current cooling setup keeps my 2500k @ 1.408v prime stable at 69C with ambient around 74F right now.
The temps can be very high depending on the chip. Last night I booted up my system running at stock volts and speeds and was idling in the mid-40s. That was with only 1.1v. Now some people have managed to get 4.5ghz out of just 1.2v, it took 1.23 for me to be able to boot and it wasn't stable up to 1.25v (haven't tried higher yet) and was hitting temps in the low 80s. Now this is with a venomous-x cooler (which I attached two higher powered panaflo fans that I normally used on my 2600k) and not your modded kuhler, but just to give you an idea.

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Old 05-01-12, 07:31 AM   #178
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what I havent seen mentioned at all is the fact that using just the core to pump heat away with a tim rated at around 5w/mK may very well be much less efficient than that same core surface with 80w/mK to the IHS (much more mass and surface area) to get heat out. Seems would work much like a great pot with mass vs a cheap pot without much mass.

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Old 05-01-12, 08:39 AM   #179
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Cant we just solder the heatsink to the core already and call it a day?

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Thanks!
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Old 05-01-12, 10:45 AM   #180
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what I havent seen mentioned at all is the fact that using just the core to pump heat away with a tim rated at around 5w/mK may very well be much less efficient than that same core surface with 80w/mK to the IHS (much more mass and surface area) to get heat out. Seems would work much like a great pot with mass vs a cheap pot without much mass.
Yep, if they had soldered the IHS to the core as they did with SB and most earlier Core-based lines, the IHS would definitely add significantly more area to dissipate heat. The solder junction is so much more effective at helping transfer the heat than regular TIM, it helped lower power density quite a bit. And even though IB has a 160 mm˛ core, I imagine at least half of that is dedicated to the GPU part of it and isn't part of heat transference directly unless you are using the built-in GPU. So effectively, you are trying to transfer the heat from just 80 mm˛ of active core. I think this is another reason why the people who have delidded IB aren't having much luck with getting cooler temps too. Only if you could actually do a solder junction between the IHS and core slug and keep an IHS on top of it would we be seeing decent temps.

This time around, it looks like Intel stuck it to ambient overclocking by using a less less efficient process to connect the IHS to the core. But using TIM instead of solder won't hold back max overclocks from the benchmarking crowd since they deal with cooling systems that can beat the inefficiencies of the TIM, so Intel can still proudly crow about how bad-ass their new lineup is with the marketing flacks.

I can't wait to get my new IB procs myself just to see how much of a step backwards IB will be as compared to SB. I.M.O.G. was supposed to pick me up a 3770k at MC Sunday and I ordered a 3570K from TD. Since I have their SB counterparts, it shouldn't be too hard to do some comparisons on cooling at various overclocks.
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