It has come to our attention that NVIDIA is making sure that there will be no voltage control for their GK100 line up. In a forum post on EVGA forums, EVGA employee Jacob (EVGA_JacobF), responded to question about why a new GTX 680 Classified shipped without an EVBot port.
Picture Pulled from the Original Post Courtesy Sticky622 @ EVGA Forums
The initial assumption by members was that this was just a manufacturing defect that accidentally passed QA. However, here’s Jacob’s response to the initial question.
“Unfortunately newer 680 Classified cards will not come with the EVBot feature. If any questions or concerns please contact us directly so we can offer a solution.”
Of course, many members were wondering about why EVGA had decided to remove the signature feature of their flagship GTX 680, in which Jacob responded with…
“Unfortunately we are not permitted to include this feature any longer.”
So, they are not permitted by NVIDIA to include the feature. NVIDIA is the only entity that could “not permit” them from doing something on their own product. Then, members asked the “Why?” question once again to try to coax a less vague answer to this situation and they are supplied with…
“It was removed in order to 100% comply with NVIDIA guidelines for selling GeForce GTX products, no voltage control is allowed, even via external device.”
From this quote, it’s obvious that NVIDIA does not want their partners to supply any means of voltage control with the GK100 series of GPUs. This is a slap in the face to many of the enthusiasts and everyday overclockers who enjoy pushing hardware for that extra performance. That leaves the extreme, warranty-voiding modders that hardmod their GPUs with the ability to increase voltage for the Kepler cards and have a stress-free overclocking experience
The only fault of EVGA throughout this process of removing EVBot ports is that there wasn’t an official announcement before cards without EVBot ports were shipped or listed on their site. Also, an EVGA forums member pointed out that the picture of the GTX 680 Classified in their product section seems to have the EVBot port blacked out using something like MS Paint. So, from the outside looking in it looks like EVGA was trying to hide the fact that the GTX 680 Classified will no longer have EVBot support and hoping no one noticed.
From EVGA’s Product Page
We sent an email out to EVGA for some more details about why this happened and some Classified specific questions. Jacob was able to answer the Classified specific questions.
Will you be reducing the price of the GTX 680 Classified?
“No plans at the moment.”
What makes your Classified worth the premium being charged if it is now limited to NVIDIA’s (low) Power Target limits with no additional voltage control?
“Higher power target, better cooling, higher out of box performance, binned GPU, superior voltage/power regulation, 4GB memory.”
Doesn’t that make all the records Vince keeps setting kind of worthless for anybody but him and EVGA? Not that they aren’t astounding and take a ton of skill, but if only he has access to cards that can do it, what’s the point?
“Anybody can do the same, just need to have the expertise like he does to modify the cards manually (this will VOID warranty though)”
Now, there may be ways of getting around even this if you can do it. Will EVGA be willing to supply a diagram / explanation for making your own EVBot port or directly soldering on the EVBot lead?
“Not from EVBot, but there are other documented ways to override voltage, again this will void warranty though.”
The questions that could not be answered were “Why is NVIDIA doing this?” and “Are they [NVIDIA] experiencing an increased level of RMAs? …as in, does real voltage control kill Kepler GPUs excessively fast?” and it would have been nice to to know the answer to these. Only NVIDIA knows exactly why they are holding back the potential of their GPUs by limiting the cards so much.
All this information makes it seem like it’s just a matter of time before NVIDIA snuffs out other voltage control features from other manufacturers. We know MSI and Galaxy have been having trouble getting NVIDIA to budge on allowing voltage control. ASUS has their GPU Hotwire feature, which can control GPU voltage when combined with their high-end motherboards (simliar to EVGA’s EVBot). I haven’t heard or read anything about ASUS removing hotwire for NVIDIA cards, but it looks to be inevitable. We’ve sent an email to our contacts at ASUS asking about this and we’ll update with any information we get from them.
So, the AIB partners are not to blame here, it’s all NVIDIA.
- Matt T. Green (MattNo5ss)
Tags: afterburner, asus, evbot, evga, Galaxy, hotwire, msi, nvidia, voltage control
10-02-12 06:17 PM
If they want to stop us from overclocking, I might aswell stop me from buying their products.
Sadly, if this "no overclocking" policy is nVidia's new way of thinking, these Fermis will be the last green thing I unbox.
10-02-12 06:23 PM
Just reminds me of the old days with chopped surface traces to disable SLI on nv chipsets and drivers that wouldn't allow SLI if certain chipsets were detected.
10-02-12 06:27 PM
Nvidia OC in a nutshell: Increase power limit slider to the highest it will go, increase fan speed to keep temps under 70C, push the core and memory clocks. The voltage is limited and goes to the max regardless. Done. They just limit the voltage that can go to those GPU's.
10-02-12 06:32 PM
my last build i did 2 560ti ing SLI and did a nice (safe) overclock
and the only reason i was only getting ATI was the bitcoins but thats ending soonish so i guess i have another good reason to stay now........
p.s. Nvidia is crazy!
10-02-12 06:33 PM
10-02-12 06:40 PM
I can confirm that other partners went to Nvidia asking for MOAR voltage and, AFAIK, were turned away at the door. MSI was one of them with the 680 Lightning (which I believe needs an unreleased bios and version of AB in order to get past the 1.21v limit).
10-02-12 06:41 PM
10-02-12 06:43 PM
That is all I have to say.
10-02-12 07:01 PM
10-02-12 07:10 PM
The 7970 ROFLstomps it in almost all benchmarks...
Anddd... In the end... That's really who we are talking about here... Benchers.
10-02-12 07:10 PM
NVIDIA sells their GPUs to AIB partners. Then they say 'if you want to use our GPUs, you have to do so as we tell you. If you don't, we just won't sell them to you. Neener neener boo boo.'
Which strategy do you like better?
10-02-12 07:12 PM
As far as the 680 being limited, I'd say that it has to do with the next-gen cards coming out soon and Nvidia wanting people to buy the latest and greatest (that is limited) rather than stick with the older generation card and overclock it.
10-02-12 07:16 PM
The question I would ask is, in the case where one of these 2nd and 3rd party vendors sells a card and it craps out, who is footing the bill in the end? Lets say you buy an MSI lightning with a Nividia chip and it craps out. Of course you would return the card to MSI for a warranty claim, but does MSI in return get their money back from Nividia if the failure is chip related?
10-02-12 07:17 PM
Sure... You could buy a 670 and make it outperform the 680 @ stock clocks... But the 680 when OC'd should be able to reach higher clocks than the 670... Thus the 680 is still superior.
Unless I'm just completely lost in how the new 6 series cards work that is.
10-02-12 07:17 PM
10-02-12 07:18 PM
MSI passes the buck up to NVidia...
10-02-12 07:20 PM
From seeing their past decisions, they are either going to renege on this really fast if there is enough "kick back" or stick with it because they are hard-headed like that. Once ATI drivers for Linux become a bit more mature and easy to deal with, I will probably switch if they want to continue this route.
10-02-12 07:25 PM
Why is MSI changing the voltage a problem for Nvidia? Does MSI get a kickback from NV for returning bad cards? I mean, I see this as MSI should shoulder the cost of making that change, not NV.
10-02-12 07:27 PM
Oh, just wait until this escalates...
10-02-12 07:27 PM
10-02-12 07:27 PM
10-02-12 07:35 PM
AMD goes to 1.2v(right?) and also end up on average mid 1200Mhz range. With 1.3v would it see 1300+? To what end there?
10-02-12 07:42 PM
10-02-12 07:42 PM
10-02-12 07:43 PM
As it stands, for the 99%, with the tools they have available, the overclocked HD 7970 is better than the overclocked GTX 680 simply as a result of these limitations. If they'd give voltage control (and the GPU can take it, which might well be the problem here; I don't know), the GTX 680 could be better.
10-02-12 07:45 PM
Signed,
Devil's Advocate.
All I can say about that is...
10-02-12 07:46 PM
Anddd... If they are truly using the EVBot for what it was DESIGNED for and doing so under air or water cooling... They are idiots and deserve to fry their cards and be out $600.
10-02-12 07:47 PM
10-02-12 08:10 PM
I guess that makes me the ideal Nividia customer, and target audience.
I see comparisons between the 7970 and 680, but what about the 690?
Lets do a comparison of Nividia's and AMD's flagship cards and see who comes out on top. I'm talking best of the best here, with comparable specs such as the same VRam, etc.
I'd be curious to know if that 680 you're running has the EVbot connected
EDIT: I'd also be curious to know what percentage of Nivida sales is related to OCF members. 10%?, 20%?, 50%?
10-02-12 08:15 PM
The 690 has nothing to compare to this second.. its a dual GPU card vs single GPU 7970 (I suppose 2 7970's vs one 690 is valid). The 7990 is supposed to come out soon? Perhaps then it would be a more like comparison.
My 680 CANT have an Evbot because its not an EVGA brand 680.
Im just not sure what that has to do with this thread though...LOL! I think we are a bit off the path here.
Id imagine WELL less than .001%...not that many members here compared to other sites, and between ALL sites, OEM's rule. That number is WAY WAY WAY smaller than you think.
10-02-12 08:17 PM
I run an nvidia daily, a 660ti I was sent for review.
It replaced (for 24/7 stuff) a GTX580 I bought (used) for benching purposes, as it's the top card for 3d01.
EDIT:
I wouldn't say Pro Mod is modified in the slightest. Every piece in that thing is specifically built for racing, there's no "stock" there to start with :P
10-02-12 08:20 PM
according to a couple benches out there but idk
http://www.hardwareheaven.com/review...rclocking.html
10-02-12 08:24 PM
Considering GPU Hotwire required soldering anyway and they're just blank solder points on the PCB (albeit very handily labeled), I think that might mean they plan on keeping it. Is that how you guys read that?
10-02-12 08:27 PM
10-02-12 08:30 PM
No turbocharger (overclocking), nitros oxide (LN2), yet all engine. Just a metaphor.
A top fuel dragster would be more like your typically overclocked, water loop rig maxed out.
Yep, you baited me, hook, line, and sinker
Has a Nividia card ever been reviewed here? Like the latest 660Ti? or better yet, the 680?
10-02-12 08:34 PM
http://www.overclockers.com/asus-gtx...cs-card-review
top fuel dragster would be more like LN/2 not water.
10-02-12 08:36 PM
Lots of Nvidia reviews here. Plenty of AMD reviews too. OCF does pretty much everything.
10-02-12 08:36 PM
My point is this. I don't think discrete graphics cards make up the kind of numbers, such as 365 million, that should get NV or ATI excited about in the big scheme of things. The point about bragging rights is valid. I'd think that any card manufacturer would like to see enthusiasts smoke 'em, bend 'em, and break 'em while doing a double back flip. And include it in pictures on the box. So why NV would limit an enthusiast's fun and potential seems to be a marketing mistake to me.
Certainly there are limits which a puff of smoke will certainly sort out. Kind of like any hobby that pushes the limits. Stuff breaks. What do they care ? They just sell another one. They actually don't have to honor any warranty related to abuse. Ask your insurance company about it the next time you try to jump the Grand Canyon in a stock mini-van; both they and the manufacturer will teil your widow it's not their problem.
10-02-12 08:38 PM
10-02-12 08:41 PM
EVGA GTX 660 Ti Superclocked SLI Scaling
EVGA GTX 660 Superclocked Graphics Card Review
Galaxy GTX 660 GC 2GB GPU Review
ASUS GTX 660 Ti DirectCU II TOP Graphics Card Review
EVGA GTX 660 Ti Superclocked Video Card Review
MSI GTX 660 Ti Power Edition Graphics Card review
MSI GTX 680 Lightning GPU Review
ASUS GTX 670 DirectCU II TOP Graphics Card Review
Is that enough for your tastes?
10-02-12 08:41 PM
How can one hate Nividia so much when they've given you a $600 graphics card? I can certainly understand why you'd want to switch in the future though, as that is the direction I'm leaning towards as well come Christmas, when maybe I can get a 7970 on sale or some special.
10-02-12 08:43 PM
10-02-12 08:49 PM
Even when you get to keep it you have to remain impartial. If the fact that they send you something sways your viewpoint you are a crap reviewer. It's as simple as that.
I really do not like Nvidia nor Nvidia's practices. The end for me was the GTX480's "launch" where the Head Dude held up a "Fermi" that was a chop-sawed PCB (right through some stickers) attached to a heatsink with wood screws. They haven't improved since then.
They make some fantastic cards, my personal feelings about the company doesn't change the fact that the 660Ti is a hell of a card.
If there's even the slightest hint that maybe we're biased we get jumped on by everybody for being a terrible reviewer.
To answer the previous question, as stated, maybe 0.00001%.
10-02-12 08:50 PM
If you don't see, don't respond.
10-02-12 08:51 PM
Nvidia hasn't sent me anything and is not likely to, they'd far prefer that it go to someone that will give it a biased review due to it being free :P
10-02-12 08:54 PM
10-02-12 09:55 PM
I'm sure Nividia also has a research and development department where they put cards through all sorts of stress tests and abuse to see what the limits are, and perhaps they'd rather not use that as a marketing ploy to encourage others to follow suit. They don't need consumers to do that for obvious reasons, that primarily being RMAs and profit loss. With electronics, it can often be hard to tell abuse from just plain ol failure. When someone drives off into the Grand Canyon, thats pretty obvious and intentional.
10-02-12 10:03 PM
AFAIK - You buy an XXXXXX brand card, you return the card to XXXXXX and they take the hit. Can someone in the know shed light on this?
10-02-12 10:19 PM
NVidia sells GPU Core to "X GPU CARD Manufacturer"...
X GPU CARD Manufacturer Puts said GPU Core on GPU card and sells to consumer.
GPU CARD Craps out...
X GPU Card Manufacturer looks card over upon return... If GPU CORE is found faulty... A note is sent to NVidia... You owe us one GPU Core.
Next shipment of stuff from NVidia comes with a credit for that faulty core on the bill.
ETA: This is the short version... AND... Note the difference between a GPU CORE... And a GPU CARD.
10-02-12 11:27 PM
Nividia however, should take a page out of the Intel business model. That is, provide both overclocking capability chipsets (k models) and fixed models. That way, they satisfy all parties and don't find themselves losing market share down the road.
10-02-12 11:38 PM
Regardless, makes sense to me to let the aib's float their own warranty on the cards they want to do that and absolve nvidia of all liability.
10-03-12 12:19 AM
10-03-12 12:45 AM
So much for a next generation MSI lightning w/Nividia. That will probably only be available in the AMD form.
10-03-12 12:45 AM
10-03-12 06:40 AM
I overvolted my 1st 6950 in 2 games early on, but then stopped since I gained very little, then once I CFed I didn't need to OC
10-03-12 10:08 AM
BTW, I have only used Nvidia, my whole life.
If they wanna mess with us our lives, we might as well mess with their goddamn lives. Just dont buy Nvidia anymore.
Hopes that the next gen AMD Radeons just leave the Nvidia card in the dust
10-03-12 02:40 PM
10-03-12 08:11 PM
Source: Brightsideofnews
So it looks like the its the companies that are choosing to be in warranty with Nvidia and not sticking their neck out and supporting the returns themselves. Understandable from a business perspective. Well, I mean take that side and AIB's side and Im guessing the truth lay in the middle?
10-03-12 08:42 PM
Lets just hope this doesn't become a trend among all the super chip makers
What impact would that have on enthusiasts?
10-03-12 08:48 PM
10-03-12 08:54 PM
Well, the same effect this has on extreme clockers already...they went to AMD to get the 'globals' off the 7970 since its a lot easier to push that card with software voltage than to hard mod a 680 for most extreme overclockers.
Quite frankly, I wish the AIB's would 'man up' and on their top of the line cards, offer these things. Perhaps pass the additional cost on to the consumer? That doesnt make great business sense, as it segregates the tiny TINY extreme cooling market further and most of us cant afford a premium on top of the top end cards in the first place so... not sure. I wish that but at the same time the wallet Im sitting on is screaming Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!
10-03-12 08:58 PM
10-03-12 08:59 PM
10-03-12 09:02 PM
$20 wont cover it (not knowing a darn thing about failure rates of the cards locked, then with extra voltage control).
10-03-12 09:03 PM
Excluding the EVBot, all the software voltage controllable cards have had limits on the core voltage. Some in software, some in hardware. Even including the EVBot, as you needed a special EVBot firmware to EVBot the GTX580 classy over 1.3v.
Manufacturers with access to the Volterra / CHiL / Digi+ / IR datasheets could make special NDA software that could go higher, but it was just that: Special NDA software.
The Fermis had a bios lock on normal voltage control, you could edit the bios to get up to 1.21v but if you wanted higher you had to hardmod the card or use very special software.
I'd say benchers use the 7970 because the 680 is junk for HWBot benchmarking in all benchmarks but 3d11, and not that much better for 3d11 either.
Recently the AIB companies have been more open with their software, allowing higher limits before the NDA bits are required. This probably concerned Nvidia, so it was time for some incentive towards new limits.
It's also possible that over the long term Keplers are fragile to voltage where Fermi and older were not. This wouldn't surprise me at all really and would be an excellent reason for Nvidia to limit voltage controls.
A card that dies slowly due to voltage will kill the core, the part that Nvidia has to warranty. A card that dies quickly generally kills the ram or detonates a MOSFET, those are AIB problems (except reference, I don't know whos problem it is in that case. Foxconn's maybe) rather than Nvidia problems.
I think it's probably more along the lines of "If you allow more voltage one one (1) card, you get no warranties on ANY card".
That fits with how the companies are acting and also fits with what the PR flunky said.
In any case this should be a boost for AMD, which AMD will hopefully plow right back into R&D.
10-03-12 09:03 PM
10-04-12 12:50 AM
10-04-12 10:39 AM
10-04-12 10:42 AM
10-04-12 09:16 PM
http://techreport.com/news/23678/nvi...voltage-limits
10-06-12 04:41 AM
The emphasis is mine. That tells me any voltage above what they set causes serious damage. If they're as high as they can without physically damaging the GPU relatively quickly, I think I'm ok with this answer.
It certainly doesn't seem like a CPU, where Intel will even warranty the thing for $25. If it was as simple as that, I think they might actually allow overclocking. Seems they needed to already push the GPUs as far as they could go, likely so they would beat AMD. At stock, of course.
Because AMD can apply more voltage, they can overclock farther and end up coming out ahead. There isn't enough headroom left in Kepler GPUs without causing damage it would seem.
10-06-12 04:44 AM
Thanks to Nelly @ XS for posting that one. Now you have both sides.
10-08-12 12:30 PM
10-08-12 12:37 PM
10-08-12 01:55 PM
Personally, this won't affect my personal purchases much since I run my GTX 680 at stock...
It is more than enough for any game on the market without overclocking. I will continue to buy whoever has the best performance out of the box for my daily use. so it remains completely clear with my conscience if it ever dies. my benching stuff doesn't stand a chance in
EDIT: just to be clear, this post isn't singling you out for your opinion. just the one I responded to is all.
10-08-12 02:29 PM
p.s. we need a smaller version of that smiley lol
10-08-12 02:37 PM
Most times my GPUs are stock too.
10-08-12 04:05 PM
I continue to remind everybody that there was no software voltage for Fermis over 1.21v if you didn't have the (very) special, restricted use, software.
Many generations didn't have any software voltage control at all!
10-08-12 04:08 PM
And...
The fact of the matter is... This affects NOBODY but us Extreme Benchers... Or approximately .0000000002% of nVidia's market.
Otherwise there is PLENTY of voltage available for normal people to blow up their GPU's on air... Or even water.
It's just that us Extreme Benchers have to go to the old school methods of volt modding the hard way.
10-08-12 04:32 PM
However, (you knew that was coming, didn't you?) the scope of this discussion has gone beyond the reason this article was written in the first place - the removal of EVBot. EVBot != software voltage control. IIRC, you could exceed 1.21V with EVBot on a Fermi GPU, no?
Yes, software was mentioned but the reason this is upsetting (to me, anyway) is that they've forced removal of EVBot as an option. Well, that and EVGA is keeping the price the same.
10-08-12 04:47 PM
It could be said that there is software on the EVBot that interfaces with software on the GPU
I think that Nvidia forcing the removal of the EVBot is rather rude, I also think that EVGA leaving the price high is rather rude as well.
If we're believing Nvidia to an extent and believing that they really do warranty the cores they sell (lease?) to manufacturers this move makes sense to me. At least it makes sense if the Kepler core is very weak to sustained voltage.
It looks to me like Nvidia knows that the core will die if over-volted for any meaningful length of time and is trying to prevent that from happening. Ideally while hiding it.
10-09-12 01:23 AM
10-15-12 05:38 PM
Warning: it is not for the faint of heart.
10-15-12 05:50 PM
Jacob says you can't just solder an EVBot connector in the empty spot, then TiN does it and it works
Also, the GPU Flasher is awesome! No more EVGA EVBot supported mobo required for flashing
10-15-12 06:11 PM
10-15-12 06:58 PM
Looks promising...
10-20-12 06:52 PM
starts temp comp
adds over volting support
NV tells me to stop
tell then to kiss my butt I bought the gpus, they don't stop comps from making non reff cards
10-20-12 07:07 PM
10-20-12 07:19 PM
most warrantys prohibit overclocking
so whats to lose. the owner broke the card, not the aib
10-20-12 08:02 PM
10-20-12 09:59 PM
+1 How can they blame the customer if they don't tell that they overclocked the card.
10-21-12 01:03 AM
10-24-12 11:23 PM
http://vr-zone.com/articles/nvidia-s...ons/17318.html
10-29-12 01:37 AM