1090T CH4F looking for some opinions

[ScrubyMcBubble]

Hey, I'm a new member to the forum and i look forward to learning all i can so that one day i can help others on the forums!
**I am going to give as much details as possible, to prevent a lack of information. If you deem something is irrelevant then by all means ignore it as i can get out of hand in terms of post length and detail.. ( ) Ill set it up in categories somewhat so its easy to navigate my blabbering **

This is my first manual overclock and i have done a fair amount of research before attempting, i have a general knowledge of the process so far. I also keep profiles of every successful overclock i obtain.
_______________BUILD_______________
My build is as follows:
AMD Phenom II X6 1090T BE
Crosshair IV Formula
G.Skill (4x4GB) 1866Mhz 8-9-9-24 F3-14900CL8D-8GBXM
OCZ ModXStream Pro 700W Modular High Performance Power Supply
Noctua NH-D14 Heatsink with Arctic Silver 5
AMD HD Radeon 6970 2GB (reference model)
OCZ Vertex 60GB Sata II (boot drive)
OCZ Revodrive SSD 50GB pci-e (For favorite games)
2 WD 1TB 7200rpm (storage)
Antec Three Hundred Case (all optional fans filled)

_______________GOALS_______________
Pretty common setup of crosshair and 1090t, so now that everyone is familiar with what were working with... My overall goal is to get the processor running at least 4Ghz or more, while fully utilizing the 1866Mhz stock capabilities of my 16gb of ram. In the past my only overclock has been an auto-overclock performed by the TurboV program that brought me to cpu 3.9Ghz ram 1600Mhz, I did not check the timings or voltage or the Mhz of the Cpu-NB an HT but i did save the settings into a bio's profile just for reference if needed.

Before i joined these forums i was exploring numerous ancient posts and forums on overclocking and they lead me in the right direction, but only partially. While i got a good understanding of the FSB and multiplier, i was left in the dark about the CPU-NB and HT. Upon reading the many very useful guides in this overclocking goldmine of a forum, I learned that CPU-NB must be overclocked as the processor is overclocked.
_______________Temps_____________
To get this valuable piece of info out of the way early...
Upon reaching 3.8Ghz my cpu reached max temps of 54c full load.
Because i hate the thought of high temps, i grabbed 3 more 120mm fans from the "Organized mess of computer stuff that has taken half my living room hostage" and filled the remaining fan slots (the door fan, and 2 front HDD bay fans) and it provided the perfect airflow from front to back reducing the overall temp of my case immensely. Under full load 4Ghz the cpu now reaches 44c and the gpu has gone from 58c to 46c

_______________RAM_______________
I'm aware i do not require the FSB to attain a overclock on my CPU with my black edition, but correct me if i am wrong, i do need the FSB modified in order to reach my target of 1866Mhz ram. So i began by finding out which FSB clock i would need for me to be satisfied with my ram.
The FSB clocks i tried were:
225 for 1800Mhz 8-9-9-24 at 1.5v
233 for 1864Mhz 8-9-9-24 at 1.5v
236 for 1888Mhz 8-9-9-24 at 1.5v
As i did this, i reduced the CPU Multi to keep it running between 3.15Ghz - 3.25Ghz and then i proceeded to test the stability of the ram settings using memtest86+ booted from DVD. All 3 separate clocks were passing 12hour tests, and on one of the occasions i even tested 14gb (the amount unused and available) with memtest for windows (complete different program that runs within windows) and i have seen no errors whatsoever with any of my ram settings.

_______________CPU________________
After the ram was clocked and proved stable, i proceeded to increase the multiplier of my cpu. I left the ram at the above speeds for all of my cpu clocks.
While using ram at 1888 and 1864 i could only reach within 3.8-3.9 range on cpu.
With ram at 1800Mhz had no issue getting the cpu to 3.6 then to 3.8 and then with a bit of extra volts 4.05. Upon each successful clock i would prime95 for 30 at 3.6, then 2 hours for 3.8 and because 4Ghz was my target i wanted to insure it was fully stable but it failed after 4 hours. Upon each failed prime95 i would increase the voltage slightly, and eventually after always failing 2-5 hours into the prime95 and increasing the volts i was running 1.42v in bios (which fluctuated to 1.45v under full load via CPU-Z)

_______________The worsened state caused by volting_______________
**This is just a description of the change in how prime would fail after increased volts, feel free to skip if its irrelevant**
After the many increases of volts on the cpu to search for stability the computer was actually running somewhat worse than prior to the additional volts. The failures in prime95 used to only crash the computer to a restart, but now would instead freeze the pc and upon force shutdown and restart the bios would fail to boot unless power was fully shut off which was very annoying because my gpu seems to have some sort of leaf-blower feature to clean out dust before bios boots by going 100% fan speed. Without the bios booting the computer would sit in an unresponsive state of a blank screen and some sort of hurricane within my gpu haha

_______________My Questions/Concerns_______________

Any answers to my questions is greatly appreciated! I don't expect one person to be able to answer all 10 at once, answer what you know.

1. Should I be changing the multiplier of the ram to keep it under 1600Mhz while overclocking the cpu, even though the ram passes all tests flawlessly?

2. I hear that i should be increasing the CPU-NB freq (and volts to accommodate the freq) as i increase the cpu to keep it stable. Would this be why my overclocks keep failing and continuing to increase volts has done nothing to increase stability?

3. I want the most out of everything within reasonable boundaries which includes my ram and with the FSB of 236 my ram is at 1888Mhz and the cpu multi gives great sounding values such as 4012Mhz (x17) or 4130Mhz (x17.5). Should i abandon my current 4hours stable 4.05Ghz 225 FSB and 1800Mhz ram settings and keep trying to get 4Ghz stable on FSB of 236? ( I still have a stable profile of 3.8Ghz FSB 236 1888mhz that i can work from )

4. While testing stability for my ram in memtest86+, memtest would list my ram as 800 (1600mhz) regardless of the speeds i had set in the bios (1800, 1864, 1888) and once in windows CPU-Z indicates the ram is indeed running at the correct bios speeds. Is this an issue with memtest86+, or is it an error with my ram and/or bios?

5. I was originally planning on overclocking RAM -> CPU -> CPU-NB -> GPU depending on answers to question #2 this order may change to keep CPU and CPU-NB within the same step. Is there anything wrong with my order? Or is there anything else i am forgetting?

6. In Dolk's guide http://www.overclockers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=596023 he has a table of suitable CPU-NB clocks for each setting of the Phenom II CPU, although this table is more deneb specific and he has made it apparent that a higher clock will not always be better if it doesnt pair up well with the CPU speeds.. Does anyone know or have experience with which CPU-NB clocks work best with the Thubans when running around 4Ghz - 4.2Ghz?

7. I was read someones guide with the same mobo and cpu and they mentioned to only overclock the pcie freq once everything is absolutely stable, and that going from 100-105mhz always works and to never exceed 120mhz. What are the benefits of overclocking the pcie? Is it safe?

8. I have read to disable the spread spectrum for anything I overclock. I have never had an issue with Electromagnetic interference before, but are the benefits of disabling spread spectrum worth the potential EMI? If i get my rig fully stable, is it worth a try to see if it will remain perfectly stable after turning the spread spectrum back on?

9. Some people say to never disable load line calibration, while one or two others say to turn it off. Input?

10. I have seen a few people using the term (rep) and noticed there is a score of rep (assuming rep means reputation) can i grant people reputation points for being a great help? if so, how?

PS. if you have managed to read through all of my rants and blabbering without skipping, You are a champion.

 

[RGone]

My overall goal is to get the processor running at least 4Ghz or more, while fully utilizing the 1866Mhz stock capabilities of my 16gb of ram. = That is probably why you cannot get a decent stable overclock. Your goal is unrealistic most likely.

You could throw 8 gigs of ram in two sticks and hit 4.1Ghz pretty easy. Then you could put 16 gigs of ram in and do 4.0Ghz pretty easy with the ram at DDR1333 or maybe even DDR1600. When you want to run 16gig of ram at DDR1866 on the IMC of the 1090T cpu, and do 4.0Ghz...then you will have problems and the "doing" can be a no go. The Go/NoGo will be known about an *individual* setup only after probably hours of tweaking.
RGone...

 

[Mandrake4565]

Scrubby, Welcome to the forums, that was a long read but helpful. I cannot answer all of your questions but I'll add what I can.

To start you with your goals taken into consideration you are doing it correctly, as far as trying to OC the ram first and taking the cpu out of the equation. I didn't see a mention of it but were you lowering the multiplier on the Ht Link and NB Freq to keep them at stock speeds when you were raising the FSB?

When I am tring to find the limits of my cpu or ram I try to only test 1 thing at a time. So I will try to find my ram limit first if that is your priority and then set it to stock then test the cpu Oc. After you find your limits I would then try to find a stable combination of both. With that said, I don't know if there is a difference in the IMC of the Phenom II X6 vs the Phenom II X4 but sometimes the IMC's can't handle better then 1333mhz on the Phenom X4. I have had my 955be at 1700mhz stable but just an FYI some cannot. Yours seems to be able to reach the speeds you want so that is good. Though when you push the Cpu mhz higher it may put a greater strain on the IMC, therefore you may not be able to run the combination as high. Have you increased the Dram Voltage or the Cpu NB Voltage? This may help you find a stable OC, though raising the Cpu NB Freq will increase your temps. So yes to question #2, try bumping the CPU NB Voltage to 1.2 or 1.25. Also you may want to try and remove 2 sticks of ram if running 4
3. Stability is a grey area, I myself have found that if I can run prime stable for 2 hours, with what I use the pc for, it is stable. Some people find that it isn't enough and run longer. Speaking for myself, my 24/7 Oc is prime 2 hours stable at 4.7 on the rig in my signature. I used a program for 10 days 24/7 called Folding at Home, which uses 100% load on the cpu and the pc never crashed, that is stable enough for me.

As far as memtest I believe that is just the way it is, I ran it on my machine with it set at 1866 and it also read 800mhz.

For question #5 you may want to try and raise the Cpu NB freq to see if it helps stabilize it.

6. As mentioned before I do not have much experience with the X6 so I'll let someone else answer that.

7. I don't believe there is much benefit to raising the Pci mhz.

8 I disable SS as well as cool and quiet C1e and any other power saving features.

9 LLC I'm not sure if you can even disable it on that board. What you should do is test the different levels and find the one that doesn't allow the CPU V to droop too much lower then the selected Cpu Voltage without overshooting it by too much also.

10 I don't think there is a rep score so don't worry about it.

11. Do this so we can see whats going on under the hood, download Hwmonitor open it and run prime for 20 minutes. Then post a SS of Hwmonitor as well as the following tabs in Cpu-z, cpu, spd and memory. Use the in forum attachment tool to do it.

 

[storm-chaser]

Responses in bold:

While using ram at 1888 and 1864 i could only reach within 3.8-3.9 range on cpu.
With ram at 1800Mhz had no issue getting the cpu to 3.6 then to 3.8 and then with a bit of extra volts 4.05. Upon each successful clock i would prime95 for 30 at 3.6, then 2 hours for 3.8 and because 4Ghz was my target i wanted to insure it was fully stable but it failed after 4 hours. Upon each failed prime95 i would increase the voltage slightly, and eventually after always failing 2-5 hours into the prime95 and increasing the volts i was running 1.42v in bios (which fluctuated to 1.45v under full load via CPU-Z)

Usually, 1 hour on prime95 is enough to prove stability in the real world, so I wouldn't get that worried about failing after 4 hours. I'm all for maximum memory speed, but make sure you can run tight enough timings at 1800MHZ. Sometimes its more beneficial to run the memory at 1600MHz with tighter timings. Download HWMonitor to measure voltages and monitor temps.

**This is just a description of the change in how prime would fail after increased volts, feel free to skip if its irrelevant**
After the many increases of volts on the cpu to search for stability the computer was actually running somewhat worse than prior to the additional volts. The failures in prime95 used to only crash the computer to a restart, but now would instead freeze the pc and upon force shutdown and restart the bios would fail to boot unless power was fully shut off which was very annoying because my gpu seems to have some sort of leaf-blower feature to clean out dust before bios boots by going 100% fan speed. Without the bios booting the computer would sit in an unresponsive state of a blank screen and some sort of hurricane within my gpu haha

Sometimes the failure-to-restart-issue can be caused by insufficient CPU-NB voltage or less than adequate NB voltage. I'd start by bumping up the CPU NB to 1.25 or 1.3. Max you really want to go on air is 1.4 Most of the times, it is the CPU NB that will bolster reliability and solve that problem. But if not, you can go a couple notches higher on your NB voltage, say 1.25ish.

1. Should I be changing the multiplier of the ram to keep it under 1600Mhz while overclocking the cpu, even though the ram passes all tests flawlessly?

The Memory Controller on the Thuban based Phenom IIs is stout and easily handles 1600MHz in most cases. Especially since you are passing all tests, go for it. Make sure you set your timings properly in the bios. Download CPUz to check and confirm you are running the right voltage and XMP timings, and to check relevant clock speeds.

2. I hear that i should be increasing the CPU-NB freq (and volts to accommodate the freq) as i increase the cpu to keep it stable. Would this be why my overclocks keep failing and continuing to increase volts has done nothing to increase stability?

Yes and no. Yes, your overclock may be failing because of the lack of CPUNB voltage, but NO in that you don't need to increase the CPU NB freq to improve the reliability of your overclock as you increase CPU clocks. But you will want to increase CPU-NB freq to improve the performance of your overclock. Some of the older overclock guides recommend increasing CPU-NB speed as you increase your CPU clock, but in reality this is not necessary on the Thubans. You can have a reliable overclock with a 2000Mhz NB or a 3000MHz NB and its all in the config, has nothing to do with 'pairing' both the NB clock to the CPU clock. keep the HT as near to stock as possible. In this case its likely 2200MHz or so. Then go ahead and slowly increase the multiplier on your NB, which incrementally adding voltage to your CPU-NB at the same time. Most cases you can go to about 3000MHz NB on air, and that will really decrease memory latency and is absolutely essential for a good-all-around-overclock. Usually your stock CPU-NB is about 1.175, and then I work up from there, go to 1.25-1.28, and in some cases you will need 1.3-1.35 for a 3000MHz NB. Try not to go over 1.4 on air cooling.

3. I want the most out of everything within reasonable boundaries which includes my ram and with the FSB of 236 my ram is at 1888Mhz and the cpu multi gives great sounding values such as 4012Mhz (x17) or 4130Mhz (x17.5). Should i abandon my current 4hours stable 4.05Ghz 225 FSB and 1800Mhz ram settings and keep trying to get 4Ghz stable on FSB of 236? ( I still have a stable profile of 3.8Ghz FSB 236 1888mhz that i can work from )

I would recommend the multiplier overclock since you have a black edition processor, but if you can get things stable on the FSB overclock, you can capitalize on your memory speed. Still, don't underestimate 1600MHz memory with tight timings. I would do some tests and benchmarks to see which configuration suites your needs.

5. I was originally planning on overclocking RAM -> CPU -> CPU-NB -> GPU depending on answers to question #2 this order may change to keep CPU and CPU-NB within the same step. Is there anything wrong with my order? Or is there anything else i am forgetting?

I would go: CPU > CPU-NB > RAM > GPU. Generally, your processor yields the most results, then a highly clocked NB, then ram with tight timings. Your GPU can run most games on high without needing overclock.

6. In Dolk's guide http://www.overclockers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=596023 he has a table of suitable CPU-NB clocks for each setting of the Phenom II CPU, although this table is more deneb specific and he has made it apparent that a higher clock will not always be better if it doesnt pair up well with the CPU speeds.. Does anyone know or have experience with which CPU-NB clocks work best with the Thubans when running around 4Ghz - 4.2Ghz?

While the guide is of the highest standard, its an early overclocking guide and that chart is not relevant to the Thuban. Again, no need to pair the CPUNB clocks to your CPU clock. Just remember, the higher you go on the NB, the better your overclock will be. Just keep the HT at close to stock speeds, as no performance improvements result from overclocking that, just adds heat which is not recommended

7. I was read someones guide with the same mobo and cpu and they mentioned to only overclock the pcie freq once everything is absolutely stable, and that going from 100-105mhz always works and to never exceed 120mhz. What are the benefits of overclocking the pcie? Is it safe?

Not really applicable in some cases will brick your system and you'll have to pull the MB battery to recover. You've got a pretty stout video card there, plus a revodrive, no need OC or mess with the PCIe bus

8. I have read to disable the spread spectrum for anything I overclock. I have never had an issue with Electromagnetic interference before, but are the benefits of disabling spread spectrum worth the potential EMI? If i get my rig fully stable, is it worth a try to see if it will remain perfectly stable after turning the spread spectrum back on?

There is a very low chance of EMI in most cases in most situations. Disable spread spectrum for best OC results.

PS. if you have managed to read through all of my rants and blabbering without skipping, You are a champion.

Welcome to the forum!

 

[ScrubyMcBubble]

Thanks for all the replies!

Rgone, I actually had an option that was 10$ cheaper for 2 sticks of 8GB but the timings were 9-10-9-28 and i thought i might be able to reach tighter timings out of the 8-9-9-24 i purchased. I forgot all about the reduced stability of pairing ram together..

Mandrake, I did not actually lower the multi on the HT and NB while increasing the FSB, nor did i add any voltages to anything but the cpu. Now that you point it out, this could be why my overclock with 225 FSB reached much further clocks then the 236 and 233 FSB's. I will try increasing the volts on the CPU-NB Thanks a bunch! oh and i already got all those programs so ill get some screenies, an i know most programs like folding@home, i used to mine bitcoins for a while, but ill probably start folding once my rigs where i want it. (i would rather donate calculations to something with a point then be paid meager sums of online currency)

Storm-chaser, Thanks for answering as many as you did I shall try to get my CPU stable with your advice. Also this may seem like a noob question, but if you run 1866mhz ram at 1600mhz can it run even lower timings then the stock 1866 timings? Currently i have my ram stable at their advertised 8-9-9-24 with 1888mhz, but i will definately make another oc profile and try for equivalent cpu clocks with 1600mhz and benchmark some results!

 

[storm-chaser]

Thanks for all the replies!

Storm-chaser, Thanks for answering as many as you did I shall try to get my CPU stable with your advice. Also this may seem like a noob question, but if you run 1866mhz ram at 1600mhz can it run even lower timings then the stock 1866 timings? Currently i have my ram stable at their advertised 8-9-9-24 with 1888mhz, but i will definately make another oc profile and try for equivalent cpu clocks with 1600mhz and benchmark some results!

Yes you should be able to run lower than advertised stock 1866 timings.
I would do some research online on that particular RAM to get feedback potential timings. Try something like: 7-8-8-20 for 1600. Just be prepared.

 

[DustyWolfe]

spd tab in cpuz tells you timings for different speeds.

 

[ScrubyMcBubble]

Alright, so because of the suggestions to try 1600Mhz and that 1800's with 4Ghz can be unstable, I decided to clock the ram at 1600. The best part is that 1600Mhz is available at my stock FSB of 200 so I am now utilizing my BE cpu and overclocking with the multiplier.
My current results are great! I have my CPU running 4Ghz on the dot, and have prime95 tested it flawlessly for 15hours at which point I was satisfied with the stability. I then memtest86+ tested my ram for 14hours at 1600Mhz 8-8-8-24 fully stable.
I am now trying to find my limits on the tightest timings i can manage, and currently stresstesting the ram at 7-8-8-20 so far 2 hours no errors

Any advice as to which timings i should attempt next? I was thinking of trying either 7-7-7-18 or possibly the current 7-8-8-20 but try a command rate of 1T instead of 2T. Which would benefit performance more?

 

[storm-chaser]

my limits on the tightest timings i can manage, and currently stresstesting the ram at 7-8-8-20 so far 2 hours no errors

Any advice as to which timings i should attempt next? I was thinking of trying either 7-7-7-18 or possibly the current 7-8-8-20 but try a command rate of 1T instead of 2T. Which would benefit performance more?

I would start with 1T command right with your current 7-8-8-20 and then if its stable maybe try a little lower, still those timings are great. Glad to hear its working out for you.

 

[ScrubyMcBubble]

Last night I tried 7-7-7-18 and received errors, then I bumped it to 7-7-7-20 and still got errors. I proceeded with plan B and went with a command rate of 1T on 7-8-8-20 and so far it has run memtest86+ 6 hours error free which is actually only 2 passes (if there is a reason to hate overclocking 16gb of ram this is it) so once i reach 4-5 passes I will deem it 100%.

As another question, Will increasing the voltage of the ram allow for even tighter stable timings? Or is that only relevant to overclocking cpu and cpu-nb? Currently i am running the ram 7-8-8-20-1T at 1.5v (stock volts)
Thanks again for the help on the ram.

 

[storm-chaser]

As another question, Will increasing the voltage of the ram allow for even tighter stable timings? Or is that only relevant to overclocking cpu and cpu-nb? Currently i am running the ram 7-8-8-20-1T at 1.5v (stock volts)
Thanks again for the help on the ram.

Yes, in some cases a little more voltage can add stability at the tighter timings. For example, my stock memory voltage is 1.650 at 7-8-7-20 but I can run tighter 7-8-7-15 @ 1.680v. Just use care to stay within voltage limits.

 

[ScrubyMcBubble]

I noticed my computers default plugnplay for the ram ran it at 1.65v, which was the most common ram voltage around the market when CH4F came out so it makes sense.
Would the lifetime of my ram be reduced or in danger if i ran it less than or equal to 1.65v when default recommended is 1.5v?

 

[storm-chaser]

I noticed my computers default plugnplay for the ram ran it at 1.65v, which was the most common ram voltage around the market when CH4F came out so it makes sense.
Would the lifetime of my ram be reduced or in danger if i ran it less than or equal to 1.65v when default recommended is 1.5v?

Typically ddr3 ram has a lower voltage for the standard JEDEC timings and then slightly higher for the XMP-1600 profile. This makes it versatile within that voltage range, and perhaps just a hair higher if needed. Best thing to do is download cpu-z and click the SPD tab to obtain voltages and make sure you are within limits. Also google the ram part # and see what other folks with that ram have been running.