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A64 - CG mobile or CG desktop ?

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SunTzu69

Member
Joined
Apr 30, 2004
Location
Canada
What difference in overclocking capability are we really talking about according to what you've read, seen or experienced yourselves?

Is it really worth the extra few dollars for the mobile and trouble of finding a mobo that will support your mobile?

Also, will a mobile (say 1.4v) handle the same voltage level as a desktop if you crank it up some? Should it last as long at the same level? (1.7v-1.8v)

Thanks
 

d]g[ts

Member
Joined
Jul 30, 2003
Location
pittsburgh
So far i have owned a CO desktop and a CG DTR. for what the difference in OC was not worth the hastle of the DTR chip. but then again it was a nice clocker.

Later tonight I will have some results from a desktop CG clawhammer. for a sort of CG to CG comparison. As for the voltages I ran that DTR chip pretty high with no ill effects, however I'll never know how long it would last like that since i get rid of em pretty quick. Not to mention they havent been around long enough to see what voltage takes from the chips lifetime. unless your talking High V-dimm thats a different animal.
 

Gautam

Senior Benchmark Addict
Joined
Feb 4, 2003
Location
SF Bay Area
CG desktop if you've got the choice between the two. At this point I might even lean towards a C0 desktop, as every board seems to have it's own problems with them.

Mobiles and desktops are the same core, really, the mobiles are hand-picked though, so they may oc a little bit nicer in some cases.

EDIT: oooh, another CG, maybe you'll get one of those 2.8GHz wonder chips this time ;)
 
OP
SunTzu69

SunTzu69

Member
Joined
Apr 30, 2004
Location
Canada
So from your post Gautam, I figure the fuss about the mobiles is to guarantee a CG ?

Thanks
 

Bar81

Disabled
Joined
Mar 23, 2004
Location
SoCal
Mostly. For some people like myself who run quiet comps the lack of IHS allows much more efficient cooling allowing low cfm fans to be used. Also, since the mobiles tend to clock higher at a lower voltage (for instance my 3200+ 1.4v mobile hits 2.3Ghz at just 1.45v) there is *much* less heat from the CPU. If you don't care about heat and quiet then there's not much point in going mobile unless you're really trying to hit 2.6Ghz+
 

hitechjb1

Senior Member
Joined
Feb 2, 2003
I look at the current lack of "perfect" motherboard working in combination of a mixture of A64 CPU like this:

At this time, there is no "perfect, best" motherboards like the NF-S rev 2, DFI Infinity Ultra as in the Nforce2, AXP situation for the A64. Each board from EPOX, MSI, ABIT, ... has its own minor problems of bios, voltage adjustment, certain overclocking adjustment ease, software overclocking, CPU recognition, lack of certain features such as RAID feature, IEEE 1394, ....

IMO mobile A64 CG ClawHammer and NewCastle are still the better choice for CPU for its lower voltage/power rating for the same frequency, and potentially better overclocking.

The lack of motherboard and mature bios may be just temporary and hopefully can be resolved soon. This is like during around Nov 02 - Mar 03 for Nforce2, where the rev 1 Nforce2 chipset and bios limited FSB to only 180 - 210 MHz, and also available CPU was only Tbred A (overclockers were so happy to get the unlock Tbred A compared to the locked Palomino). For those did not get the boards and CPU during that 4-5 month period, were able to get a perfect combination of Nforce2 rev 2 board and Tbred B DLT3C 1700+ after that period of time.

For most of us who already have some systems (mostly nforce2 + mobile barton/Tbred B) running, I would suggest waiting for more mature and better hardwares (e.g. PCI-e), bios revision, CPU (e.g. cheaper A64 or eventual 939), .... before jumping into upgrade.

Of course, if you are someone who likes trying and testing new hardwares, if not perfect, and moves on to something else, then it is a different story.

Of course, if there are situations that a completely new system needed to be built immediately, there would be no choice but to get the most reasonable available combination of motherboard and CPU, which would be
- MSI K8N Neo Platinum + CG mobile A64 ClawHammer/NewCastle or
- EPOX 8KDA3+/8KDA3J + CG A64 NewCastle (or CG Mobile A64 ClawHammer/NewCastle if willing to deal with bios update later)
 
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Bar81

Disabled
Joined
Mar 23, 2004
Location
SoCal
hitechjb1 said:
I look at the current lack of "perfect" motherboard working in combination of a mixture of A64 CPU like this:

At this time, there is no "perfect, best" motherboards like the NF-S rev 2, DFI Infinity Ultra as in the Nforce2, AXP situation for the A64. Each board from EPOX, MSI, ABIT, ... has its own minor problems of bios, voltage adjustment, certain overclocking adjustment ease, software overclocking, CPU recognition, lack of certain features such as RAID feature, IEEE 1394, ....

IMO mobile A64 CG ClawHammer and NewCastle are still the better choice for CPU for its lower voltage/power rating for the same frequency, and potentially better overclocking.

The lack of motherboard and mature bios may be just temporary and hopefully can be resolved soon. This is like during around Nov 02 - Mar 03 for Nforce2, where the rev 1 Nforce2 chipset and bios limited FSB to only 180 - 210 MHz, and also available CPU was only Tbred A (overclockers were so happy to get the unlock Tbred A compared to the locked Palomino). For those did not get the boards and CPU during that 4-5 month period, were able to get a perfect combination of Nforce2 rev 2 board and Tbred B DLT3C 1700+ after that period of time.

For most of us who already have some systems (mostly nforce2 + mobile barton/Tbred B) running, I would suggest waiting for more mature and better hardwares (e.g. PCI-e), bios revision, CPU (e.g. cheaper A64 or eventual 939), .... before jumping into upgrade.

Of course, if you are someone who likes trying and testing new hardwares, if not perfect, and moves on to something else, then it is a different story.

Of course, if there are situations that a completely new system needed to be built immediately, there would be no choice but to get the most reasonable available combination of motherboard and CPU, which would be
- MSI K8N Neo Platinum + CG mobile A64 ClawHammer/NewCastle or
- EPOX 8KDA3+/8KDA3J + CG A64 NewCastle (or CG Mobile A64 ClawHammer/NewCastle if willing to deal with bios update later)

The problem with your two recommendations are that they aren't even good combinations right now. The MSI has caused many people to pull their hair out with mobiles. It's got a laundry list of problems and not just with mobiles. MSI is reknowned for their poor quality and they don't seem to be doing anything to hurt that reputation with the K8N Neo. Whether that's due to poor MSI quality/QC remains to be seen but there's some major problems. Also, with the Epox there has been no indication of mobile support and you're doing potential purchasers a disservice to imply that a bios update will correct this, as that's simply unfounded speculation. It's perfectly possible that the Epox boards will *never* support mobiles.

What you do have right is that there isn't a perfect board out there yet. For example, while the new nForce3-250 boards overclock great they still have room for improvement in SATA speed, IDE speed, and proper working of the embedded firewall. For mobiles, I view the Asus K8N-E as the last best hope for an overclockable no-issue good quality board for mobiles from the current round of boards, but that's simply my feeling based upon the K8V's support of mobiles.

Mobiles are obviously not desktop chips and as such require an investment of time and patience to use on desktop boards. Unless a user has a specific reason(s) to use a mobile (heat, noise, or 2.6Ghz+ overclocking) there is no reason to use the mobiles. A desktop chip with good aircooling that is a CG stepping will give you ~2.5Ghz. The only concern I personally would have re the desktop chips and overclocking is regarding the longevity of the chip at 1.65v+ Then again the people who are pushing these chips don't tend to hold onto them for very long so that it may not be an issue at all in the end.
 

hitechjb1

Senior Member
Joined
Feb 2, 2003
The main point I made (with Nforce2 + Tbred B example) is to point out, for most of us who already have a good system is to wait. I have tried to make this point, not in just this post, in quite a few posts also.

The MSI + mobile A64, EPOX + desktop A64 are only the least, last resort for those who has to build a complete system immediately (today/yesterday) for whatever reason, if you read the post, and have to make a choice. What other choice do we have currently, beside MSI and EPOX?

I later added the EPOX + mobile A64 suggestion (in bracket for completeness) is for those who are willing to wait for potential bios, for those who like to play and try things out and may have/keep multiple CPU's. It is an option not a disservice. Most active members for A64 here are aware of EPOX not working with mobile A64, from reading the many posts. Thinking EPOX will never support mobiles, is pure speculation, ....

CG is referred to revision officially in AMD terms, not stepping. I have pointed this out many times. There are many posts recently discussing this distinction between stepping and revision, please take a note.
 

Bar81

Disabled
Joined
Mar 23, 2004
Location
SoCal
PLEASE. Get over yourself. Epox does NOT support mobiles and so the baseline is that they will NOT support mobiles. Your fantasies are the speculation, not the other way around. Second there are plenty of choices for the Athlon64 mobile as I point in my thread on Anandtech. Do yourself a favor and read it before you comment on mobiles, you obviously don't know as much as you think you know. Finally, I know CG is a revision dumbass, look at my sig. I have pointed out many things before you could even fathom them but I don't make it a point to be a prick and point them out like it makes me more knowledgeable on the issue like you seem want to do.

Waiting is fine, but it never ends, then again neither do your pointless responses.
 

CandymanCan

Disabled
Joined
Aug 14, 2003
Location
Woodbridge, Va
Think of it it this way guys... Anyboard that supports the mobiles still has some problsm with the mobiles some are major some are minor. The MSI board, mobiles boot @ a 4 multi and voltage adjustment has no affect. So the bios is usless for overclocking, people need to use that clockgen thig, Im getting all this info from people o nthe MSI forums.

The Chaintech board you have to have a desktop cpu to flash to the latets bios first then mobiles will work but the board will still have major problems. I personally think buying a mobile or DTR is a waist because even tho boards support it they still have thier problems
 
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hitechjb1

Senior Member
Joined
Feb 2, 2003
Bar81 said:
... Finally, I know CG is a revision dumbass, look at my sig. I have pointed out many things before you could even fathom them but I don't make it a point to be a prick and point them out like it makes me more knowledgeable on the issue like you seem want to do.
...

I brought up the point about the CG revision, not stepping, is not just the post here, is that I have read your post in anandtech about the A64 CPU. But all along, it has still been using the terms CO stepping, CG stepping, ... and I would like to point that out since the term "stepping" for CO and CG is different than the term "revision" used in the AMD technical documents and specification. It would be more consistent to use the right terminology.

E.g. 2nd paragraph, as well as the rest of the post, all CO, CG are referred to as stepping instead of revision.

Bar81 (anandtech post) said:
...
(a) The 1.5v DTR CPUs come in three flavors currently, a 3400+ model with a clock speed of 2.2Ghz and 1MB of L2 cache with the older C0 stepping core (there are plans to transition the 3400+ to the CG core but as of yet no reliable reports have surfaced that this has occured,) a 3200+ model with a clock speed of 2.0Ghz and 1MB L2 cache with the improved CG stepping core, and a 3000+ model with a clock speed of 1.8Ghz and 1MB L2 cache with the improved CG stepping core.
...
 
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CandymanCan

Disabled
Joined
Aug 14, 2003
Location
Woodbridge, Va
Yes alot ofp eople are being confused here, the CG and CO are mearly reivision's not steppings. The stepping are just like the Socket A cpu's exsamples are CAABC, CBASC ect. Thier is still the week and year it was built also the 4 digit code like UMPW or XPMW.

As for right now people think the steppings have no affect i noverclock only revisions. I made a thread on a bunch of forums including this one to get overclocking results from everyone who is using the A64's and to post thier steppings hopefully we will have an Idea if steppings really do anything on these cpus
 

oc_byagi

Member
Joined
Apr 28, 2004
Location
Sunnyvale, CA
crap, I FKed my epox up (8KDA3+), I'm being forced to use MSI K8N now..... sighs.....
is there any known issues/problems with MSI-Newcastle (desktop) combination?
 

CandymanCan

Disabled
Joined
Aug 14, 2003
Location
Woodbridge, Va
Only the temps being reported wrong from what i understand.

More info here http://forum.msi.com.tw/board.php?boardid=28&sid=


Im getting my Epox EP-8KDA3J and 3000+ newcastle CG revision today. People on this epox forum said that Samsung ram works very well with the epox board and this one guy manadged to get 320HTT max on his system. So im crossing my fingers when the fed ex truck arrives that I'll be getting some good overclocks.

Btw is that 20k in youre sig stock ? Cuss if its overclocked...
 
OP
SunTzu69

SunTzu69

Member
Joined
Apr 30, 2004
Location
Canada
Bar81 said:
Do yourself a favor and read it before you comment on mobiles, you obviously don't know as much as you think you know. Finally, I know CG is a revision dumbass, look at my sig. I have pointed out many things before you could even fathom them but I don't make it a point to be a prick and point them out like it makes me more knowledgeable on the issue like you seem want to do.

Waiting is fine, but it never ends, then again neither do your pointless responses.

Umm... I resent the fact that you call him a dumbass. He has contributed ALOT to A64 knowledge and conversation here and he never tried to flame you. Disagree with him, but try to tone down your responses.. he's just trying to help in answering my questions...

And I also think his two options are what is out there right now for us wanting to build a great OC'ing system... it's the present reality.
 

Silver

Senior Citizen (aka old fart)
Joined
Nov 24, 2001
Location
Dallas, Georgia
SunTzu69 said:
Umm... I resent the fact that you call him a dumbass. He has contributed ALOT to A64 knowledge and conversation here and he never tried to flame you. Disagree with him, but try to tone down your responses.. he's just trying to help in answering my questions...

And I also think his two options are what is out there right now for us wanting to build a great OC'ing system... it's the present reality.

Yes, that was maybe a little on the strong side and not called for. Annandtech does however have a pretty good thread going on this and would be worth a read if you are interested in going this route.
 

namanut

Registered
Joined
May 8, 2004
I dont see any sights with CG or CO listed in the descriptions...How do you know what you're getting?