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Achieving maximum ZEN 3 Memory performance at 64 GB RAM

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backintime

Registered
Joined
Sep 30, 2020
Hi there!

Being an amateur when it comes to RAM and tweaking RAM, I've been trying to do my best to read into articles and forums surrounding the latest generation of ZEN 3. To not waste too much of your time, so to speak 😉

I would like to break down what I'm trying to achieve in the order of my priority:

1. I'm looking at 64 GB of RAM
2. I'm looking at 3800 or 4000 MHz
3. I'm hoping to keep the voltage at a maximum of 1.4 V
4. CL 16 would be great, but I might be dealing with CL 18

I'm also looking for a solution where I don't have to physically be upgrading the system with a custom loop or whatever. Just plain and simple by manually entering timings (if needed at all). I don't like to max out things to the degree where it might cause damage. It's a simple 'attempt' to see how far I can get. Not to make a sport out of it. If it turns out that's not possible, I'm still happy to use a set that seems like a proper fit.

CPU/MOBO: AMD Ryzen 9 5950X, ASUS ROG Crosshair VIII Dark Hero

The Dark Hero has 4 DIMM slots. From what I read, two modules are preferred over four modules. In other words: 32x2 GB modules. The alternative would be 16x4 GB B-die modules, but I'm not sure how much that would lower the performance.

I'm really hoping for an answer, other than sticking with 3600/CL16 speeds (unless it's better to overclock from here on?). I know the 3600's are very common and popular, but I was really hoping to get into the range of 3800/4000 MHz.

The recent announced G.Skill Ryzen 5000 (Neo) modules seem like a great solution, but from what I'm reading, some of these might never see the light of day. Especially the 4000CL18 32x2 GB kit. The F4-3800C18D-64GTZN kit does seem to exist. Which would probably be my back-up option.

So with all this information: what would be the best combination to go with which is also compatible with the Dark Hero? For sure G.Skill sounds interesting, but there are other brands as well. However, the 'popular' sets from those brands (such as Corsair) don't seem to be confirmed/working (yet). There are a lot of sets going through my mind right now, but I can't really find benchmarks/reviews/comparisons about the 'drops' in performance in some scenarios. For example, running two identical sets of 16x2 GB (the question would be how the motherboard will deal with two sets). Another scenario would be running 16x4 GB modules, but than the question is how much performance I will lose compared using the preferred amount of two modules (would the B-die tweaking options make up for that?). And than of course the 32x2 GB sets, which don't have B-die options (so basically you're doomed with lower CL anyway).

I hope all of this made sense 😁 Please keep in mind that I really am an amateur when it comes to RAM timings. To spare you some time, I'm not expecting you to explain things in depth.

Thanks for now!
 
Joined
Jun 9, 2010
3800 is likely as high as you can get reliably and keep the Infinity Fabric at 1:1. You should also have an easier time keeping 2 sticks at a higher speed than 4. Go for the 4000 cl18 kit and then you can drop speed to 3800 and tighten timings a bit if you chip can't run 4000 IF 1:1.

I am sure Woomack will be around to give you more detailed and more correct information than I can.
 
OP
B

backintime

Registered
Joined
Sep 30, 2020
3800 is likely as high as you can get reliably and keep the Infinity Fabric at 1:1. You should also have an easier time keeping 2 sticks at a higher speed than 4. Go for the 4000 cl18 kit and then you can drop speed to 3800 and tighten timings a bit if you chip can't run 4000 IF 1:1.

I am sure Woomack will be around to give you more detailed and more correct information than I can.

Thank you for your reply!

For now, I will definitely keep in mind what you said. So what you're basically saying, is that even though a 32GB module can't be a B-die module, I'm still able to bring down the timings from 4000 to 3800?

As for now (besides the Royal line), these seem to be the only 32x2 4000 modules out there. I included the 3800 Trident Z Neo as well, as this seems to be the only tested Dark Hero compatible one:

Trident Z Neo 64 GB
F4-3800C18D-64GTZN (18-22-22-42 1.40V)

Trident Z RGB 64 GB
F4-4000C18D-64GTZR (18-22-22-42 1.40V)

Ripjaws V 64 GB
F4-4000C18D-64GVK (18-22-22-42 1.40V)

Corsair Vengeance LPX 64 GB
CMK64GX4M2Z4000C18 (18-22-22-42 1.35V)

Basically every one of these would be the same, right? The Corsair's lower voltage does seems interesting. However... waiting for weeks to get my hands on one, only finding out it's not compatible with the Dark Hero... that kind of makes me want to go with the safer option. Being the 3800 Neo 😁
 

Woomack

Benching Team Leader
Joined
Jan 2, 2005
I have no idea how Hero Dark overclocks higher capacity memory. Pretty much all results I've seen on this motherboard were with 2x8GB used for competitive benching. On other motherboards that I was actually testing, I had big problems to even boot with 2x32GB at more than DDR4-3600 1:1. Including at least 5 different 2x32GB kits (all but one with XMP 3600) and 3 different Ryzen 5000 CPUs. It can be or the fact that Zen 3 IMC is better than Zen 2 only on paper or simply we haven't seen improved AGESA yet. I literally had better results on 3900X and less problems with higher capacity RAM or 4 memory modules than on Ryzen 5900X.
Count that G.Skill doesn't have anything really well binned on other IC than Samsung B or Hynix D (so 8GB modules). Corsair is even worse. In short, if you buy 3600/3800/4000 kit at CL18-22-22 then probably you won't set much tighter timings. The best 2x32GB kits I've seen are Ballistix RGB DDR4-3600 CL16-18-18. From this point it will run at DDR4-3600 CL16 ... or if you are lucky with the CPU, up to 4000 CL16 at a higher voltage. I went up to 4133 CL18 with 4x32GB but I was using Ryzen 4650G as 5900X couldn't handle it even at DDR4-3600.

All popular 2x32GB kits on the market are based on Micron B/E or Hynix M. I haven't seen anything on Samsung IC, even though there are Samsung 32GB OEM modules... which also overclock worse than Hynix or Micron.
If you get Hynix or Micron (not Ballistix) based kit then count on ~3600 CL16-20-20/16-21-21 1.40-1.55V. If you get Micron from Ballistix series then you can count even on something like DDR4-3600 CL14-18-15 1.45-1.50V. This is because they are Micron brand and already optimize IC for dedicated kits while all others are only binning IC that they get. This is funny but it's also what you can read on Ballistix website ;)

So again:
1. you need strong IMC +good BIOS to be able to run at even DDR4-3600 and 1:1 with IF/IMC
2. you can't really count on much tighter timings that what you see in the XMP, it's a bonus but don't count on anything much better
3. 2x32GB overclocks easier than 4x16GB but in both cases nothing is guaranteed
 
OP
B

backintime

Registered
Joined
Sep 30, 2020
Thank you for your answer as well!

So, if I cross off all the options, I'd be the smartest going with:

1. Ballistix Micron modules
2. 2x32GB over 4x16GB
3. DDR-4000 CL16-18-18-38 1.35 V (BL2K32G36C16U4B)
4. Which might be tweakable up to 3800/4000MHz at CL14-18-15 1.45-1.50V

OR

Buying a DDR4-3800 CL18 2x32GB kit from Trident Z Neo (Dark Hero listed on the QVL), which would have a slower latency. No guarentee this would getting higher than 3600.

Am I getting this correct?

One would assume the new 'Ryzen 5000 orientated' ASUS ROG Crosshair VIII Dark Hero to have a 'strong IC'. There has been a BIOS update last month regarding the AGESA. Not sure what that's about exactly. I'd like to think it's more than 'just' an update for better support on the Ryzen 5000 CPU's (because the board is supposed to support those CPU's without a BIOS update).
 

Woomack

Benching Team Leader
Joined
Jan 2, 2005
Thank you for your answer as well!

So, if I cross off all the options, I'd be the smartest going with:

1. Ballistix Micron modules
2. 2x32GB over 4x16GB
3. DDR-4000 CL16-18-18-38 1.35 V (BL2K32G36C16U4B) <----This won't work at 1.35V, I think it will need something like 1.40-1.45V and more like 16-20-17 or 16-21-17
4. Which might be tweakable up to 3800/4000MHz at CL14-18-15 1.45-1.50V <--- these timings will work at 3600, not 3800/4000, at 3800/4000 count more like CL16 and nothing less

OR

Buying a DDR4-3800 CL18 2x32GB kit from Trident Z Neo (Dark Hero listed on the QVL), which would have a slower latency. No guarentee this would getting higher than 3600.

Am I getting this correct?

One would assume the new 'Ryzen 5000 orientated' ASUS ROG Crosshair VIII Dark Hero to have a 'strong IC'. There has been a BIOS update last month regarding the AGESA. Not sure what that's about exactly. I'd like to think it's more than 'just' an update for better support on the Ryzen 5000 CPU's (because the board is supposed to support those CPU's without a BIOS update).

Added some comments.

I have ASUS Strix B550-I Gaming, ASUS Crosshair VIII Impact and MSI MEG X570 Unify. All of them are top OC motherboards. The best memory OC results are on Strix B550-I Gaming. I assume that the Hero Dark mobo will be a bit worse with 2 modules, like 1-2 ratios less from max clock (I'm talking about 5000+ clock) but at 1:1 ratio with IF it will be about the same so ~3800-3866 with current CPUs and AGESA. On this ASUS mobo I still had problems to pass DDR4-3600 with 2x32GB modules. I was also checking CHVIII Impact on the latest BIOS which was released maybe a week ago and it's even worse than the Strix.
There was simply no new AGESA from AMD with expected memory clock improvements so motherboard manufacturers couldn't deliver any better BIOS. I'm not even sure if there will be a new AGESA that improves memory clock and IF clock at 1:1 ratio. So far all brands were fighting with problems that wouldn't let memory work above DDR4-3200, some released fixes just after Ryzen 5000 premiere, some a bit later but all these fixes were made on 1.1.0.0 AGESA with B/C patches.
 
OP
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backintime

Registered
Joined
Sep 30, 2020
Thank you so much for your information!

I will definitely go with the BL2K32G36C16U4B for now. Hopefully it will let me overclock the speed a little towards 3800MHz. If not, I will just have to deal with 3600 (in my case it's not really worth trying different sets) 😉
I might be back if I find out more regarding this set up.

Thanks again!
 

thenixhex311

New Member
Joined
Apr 9, 2021
Thank you so much for your information!

I will definitely go with the BL2K32G36C16U4B for now. Hopefully it will let me overclock the speed a little towards 3800MHz. If not, I will just have to deal with 3600 (in my case it's not really worth trying different sets) 😉
I might be back if I find out more regarding this set up.

Thanks again!


hello! did you end up going with that ram? I was going to get the RGB version and wanted to see how your success was with it!
 

D_ylli

New Member
Joined
Jun 10, 2021
Hi everybody!

In the same boat as OP :(

Was super excited to get the Asus Crosshair VIII impact for my Ncase and my first AMD CPU in over a decade - the 5950x.

...only to realize that my RAM is stuck at 2133Mhz (at least with my limited abilities)


I regrettably don't really understand the dozens of RAM variables in Bios and all I had to do in my baords before (Intel CPUs) was select X.M.P and everything was fine...

So I thought I could do the same with Zen3.
Selected DOCP -> saved -> does not boot, organge RAM LED lights up and stays lit.

I have tried two different sets that I had (Trident Z 3200 and Corsair Vengeance LPX 3200) both would not boot with DOCP neither on Bios Version 3402 nor on Version 3501.
I have also tried increasen DRAM voltage up to 1.45v ...still no success.

Now I have ordered the BL2K32G36C16U4B after reading this thread.
Hoping to be able to run those at 3600 CL16

Dear Woomack,

i would be super greatful if you could provide a hint of what I might try given that you have the same board and the same ram?

Thanks a lot in advance!

Cheers!
 

Woomack

Benching Team Leader
Joined
Jan 2, 2005
I have 2 kits of Ballistix 64GB DDR4-3600 CL16-18-18 1.35V. They run at XMP on every single motherboard that I was testing, AMD and Intel. They also OC up to DDR4-4200 CL18-24-24 1.50-1.55V. You won't be able to tighten the timings much but at XMP they perform well.
Because of high density, you probably won't be able to run it at more than DDR4-3600/3733 1:1. 3733 should still work at 16-18-18 1.35-1.40V.

Right now I'm using one of these kits in my gaming ITX box. I'm using 64GB just because I set a 45GB RAM disk and copied there one game that I'm playing. MSI RAM disk works on all motherboards. ASUS one is good too but it works only on ASUS motherboards.
 

D_ylli

New Member
Joined
Jun 10, 2021
They came today, DOCP worked like a charm.
Once click -> DOCP. ALL SET!

Thank you so much!!!

Any value in playing qround with CPU settings infinity fabric etc.?
Or can I just trust the baord to leave everything on auto?

Thanks so much again for recommending these!
Really really thank you!!!!
 

Woomack

Benching Team Leader
Joined
Jan 2, 2005
Check if cpu-z (or BIOS) is showing IF/NB running at 1800MHz, if it does then all is fine. You can try 3733/1866MHz or 3800/1900MHz but you won't see any difference in performance (out of synthetic benchmarks).
 

freeagent

Member
Joined
Sep 15, 2004
Location
Winnipeg!
Nice to hear everything worked right off the bat. I feel bad when I read posts about a fresh frustration box build. Not being able to run @ 4K is not the end of the world. I have a 5600X that is stable at 2K FCLK, and can bench at 2100FCLK but my 5900X is not so lucky. My 5900X handles 4 sticks much nicer than my 5600X did. I can run 1900 1:1, but surprisingly my fastest SuperPi 32m time came from mems at 1833.
 

dejo

Senior Moment Senior Member
Joined
Nov 11, 2001
I have an R7 5700g in a mini ITX board (Asus b550i) and if the memory isnt dual rank- I cant make up for the speed difference with ram clocks. The ram that I have is EVGA 2x8Gb 3200mhz 16-18-18-39 dual rank dimms. At 3200mhz in Geekbench5 I scored 10307. With just a change to Corsair Vengeance LPX 3200 16-18-18-38 my Geekbench 5 score was 9362
I am not sure if the non APU Ryzen 5xxx react similarly to this
 

D_ylli

New Member
Joined
Jun 10, 2021
Check if cpu-z (or BIOS) is showing IF/NB running at 1800MHz, if it does then all is fine. You can try 3733/1866MHz or 3800/1900MHz but you won't see any difference in performance (out of synthetic benchmarks).

Done, all fine then. Super happy with 3600 DOCP :)
Any way I can tip you for the highly appreciated help (PayPal etc.)?

Cheers!
 

freeagent

Member
Joined
Sep 15, 2004
Location
Winnipeg!
Thats what I saw too. I cannot make up the difference. On the 5600X it was a little easier to make it up by running high fclk 1:1 with really tight timings. But it appears not all Zen 3 can do that.. I can run my 5900X that high with 2 sticks, but I get an error in OCCT. But it passes everything else.. I question that program sometimes.

Edit:

Whoops forgot to quote.
 

dejo

Senior Moment Senior Member
Joined
Nov 11, 2001
Thats what I saw too. I cannot make up the difference. On the 5600X it was a little easier to make it up by running high fclk 1:1 with really tight timings. But it appears not all Zen 3 can do that.. I can run my 5900X that high with 2 sticks, but I get an error in OCCT. But it passes everything else.. I question that program sometimes.

Edit:

Whoops forgot to quote.

For me even at 4133 1:1 its about 70% of the difference from 3200. Sadly, that is all I can manage with the ram that I have
 

freeagent

Member
Joined
Sep 15, 2004
Location
Winnipeg!
For me even at 4133 1:1 its about 70% of the difference from 3200. Sadly, that is all I can manage with the ram that I have

Yeah I know it sucks a little. But really its not that big of a deal.. it is pretty easy to get snobby but I still remember when I booted my 3600XT for the first time.. I didn't even set DOCP I just installed and went. It honestly felt fine at 2133 21-21- something something, probably more 21s lol.. That 3600XT was pretty sweet, I should have kept it. Now of course I am used to the speed, but I was blown away coming from a 3770K and tight ddr3..

These Ryzen's are pretty sweet.. gotta hit brakes I am rambling.
 

Woomack

Benching Team Leader
Joined
Jan 2, 2005
I feel like my 5900X is degrading but I'm not sure yet. It doesn't even work at 3800 1:1 anymore (like no boot). When I got it, it could make 3866 1:1 with 2x8GB sticks, 3800 with 2x16GB, and 3733 with 2x32GB. Now it works at max 3733 with 2x8GB and 3600 with 2x16/32GB. It also has problems with higher memory clocks like 4600+ while it used to run at 5000.
Let's say I have much more fun with memory overclocking on Intel... or Ryzen 4000.
 

freeagent

Member
Joined
Sep 15, 2004
Location
Winnipeg!
My 5600X was way more fun than my 5900X. Its a nice CPU and all.. but.. I dunno. maybe should have bought an Intel :D