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Achieving maximum ZEN 3 Memory performance at 64 GB RAM

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Woomack

Benching Team Leader
Joined
Jan 2, 2005
For fun I would get Ryzen 5000 APU as it should OC like Ryzen 4000 but with ~15-20% higher performance at the same clock and ~300MHz higher OC.
 

Newbi 1 Kenewbi

Registered
Joined
Jun 7, 2021
I have no idea how Hero Dark overclocks higher capacity memory. Pretty much all results I've seen on this motherboard were with 2x8GB used for competitive benching. On other motherboards that I was actually testing, I had big problems to even boot with 2x32GB at more than DDR4-3600 1:1. Including at least 5 different 2x32GB kits (all but one with XMP 3600) and 3 different Ryzen 5000 CPUs. It can be or the fact that Zen 3 IMC is better than Zen 2 only on paper or simply we haven't seen improved AGESA yet. I literally had better results on 3900X and less problems with higher capacity RAM or 4 memory modules than on Ryzen 5900X.
Count that G.Skill doesn't have anything really well binned on other IC than Samsung B or Hynix D (so 8GB modules). Corsair is even worse. In short, if you buy 3600/3800/4000 kit at CL18-22-22 then probably you won't set much tighter timings. The best 2x32GB kits I've seen are Ballistix RGB DDR4-3600 CL16-18-18. From this point it will run at DDR4-3600 CL16 ... or if you are lucky with the CPU, up to 4000 CL16 at a higher voltage. I went up to 4133 CL18 with 4x32GB but I was using Ryzen 4650G as 5900X couldn't handle it even at DDR4-3600.

All popular 2x32GB kits on the market are based on Micron B/E or Hynix M. I haven't seen anything on Samsung IC, even though there are Samsung 32GB OEM modules... which also overclock worse than Hynix or Micron.
If you get Hynix or Micron (not Ballistix) based kit then count on ~3600 CL16-20-20/16-21-21 1.40-1.55V. If you get Micron from Ballistix series then you can count even on something like DDR4-3600 CL14-18-15 1.45-1.50V. This is because they are Micron brand and already optimize IC for dedicated kits while all others are only binning IC that they get. This is funny but it's also what you can read on Ballistix website ;)

So again:
1. you need strong IMC +good BIOS to be able to run at even DDR4-3600 and 1:1 with IF/IMC
2. you can't really count on much tighter timings that what you see in the XMP, it's a bonus but don't count on anything much better
3. 2x32GB overclocks easier than 4x16GB but in both cases nothing is guaranteed

Your advice is valuable but at present would you change anything? since its been almost a yr since (maybe AMD released a better AGESA etc or maybe X570 perform better) . or should I go with it? I just gotten my 5950x and I am deciding or which mobo to get and by extension the RAM that would be supported by it. or from what I,ve read should I choose the RAM 1st and then the mobo that would support it the best.

So, by what you said 32gb sticks don't go well with 5xxx? I was thinking of getting a 2x32gb but you kinda made me doubt my decision.

- - - Auto-Merged Double Post - - -

Please all feel free to contribute any updates!
 

Woomack

Benching Team Leader
Joined
Jan 2, 2005
Your advice is valuable but at present would you change anything? since its been almost a yr since (maybe AMD released a better AGESA etc or maybe X570 perform better) . or should I go with it? I just gotten my 5950x and I am deciding or which mobo to get and by extension the RAM that would be supported by it. or from what I,ve read should I choose the RAM 1st and then the mobo that would support it the best.

So, by what you said 32gb sticks don't go well with 5xxx? I was thinking of getting a 2x32gb but you kinda made me doubt my decision.

- - - Auto-Merged Double Post - - -

Please all feel free to contribute any updates!

New higher series motherboards will all support 2x32GB up to 4000+. Most older too. Motherboards with the B550 chipset are generally overclocking better than with the X570 but up to ~4600 should be almost the same.
I don't know from where people are getting all these problems with RAM. As long as the manufacturer cares to release BIOS updates and the motherboard was well-designed then all is fine. I haven't seen any problems with any higher series motherboard from all counting brands. All my ASRock, ASUS, and MSI motherboards were working fine and I tested maybe 12-14 of them (B550 and X570). I wasn't testing Gigabyte for some time so can't say much about their AMD motherboards.
ASUS Strix and higher, ASRock Extreme/PG/Taichi/Steel Legend, MSI Tomahawk or higher, all should work well with 32GB modules at DDR4-3600+. Most will run up to 4266+.

I'm actually looking forward to those too! After seeing the 4 series hitting 2200+ FCLK :D

Should be zesty :)

Officially Ryzen 5000 APU will appear in stores in August. Somehow, I ordered 5700G, a boxed retail version, from a local store today. Not cheap as the price is maybe $30 below the 5800X but should be more fun and for sure will heat up less. Today should arrive Noctua P1 (passive/semi-passive) cooler so I guess I will have fun with both in the next days.
 

freeagent

Member
Joined
Sep 15, 2004
Location
Winnipeg!
New higher series motherboards will all support 2x32GB up to 4000+. Most older too. Motherboards with the B550 chipset are generally overclocking better than with the X570 but up to ~4600 should be almost the same.
I don't know from where people are getting all these problems with RAM. As long as the manufacturer cares to release BIOS updates and the motherboard was well-designed then all is fine. I haven't seen any problems with any higher series motherboard from all counting brands. All my ASRock, ASUS, and MSI motherboards were working fine and I tested maybe 12-14 of them (B550 and X570). I wasn't testing Gigabyte for some time so can't say much about their AMD motherboards.
ASUS Strix and higher, ASRock Extreme/PG/Taichi/Steel Legend, MSI Tomahawk or higher, all should work well with 32GB modules at DDR4-3600+. Most will run up to 4266+.



Officially Ryzen 5000 APU will appear in stores in August. Somehow, I ordered 5700G, a boxed retail version, from a local store today. Not cheap as the price is maybe $30 below the 5800X but should be more fun and for sure will heat up less. Today should arrive Noctua P1 (passive/semi-passive) cooler so I guess I will have fun with both in the next days.


Awesome man! Have fun! Looking forward to the results :thup:

:attn:
 

dejo

Senior Moment Senior Member
Joined
Nov 11, 2001
with PBO enabled to +200mhz my 5700g with a Noctua NH-L12s with an Arctic P12 strapped on, will get up to 85c when running a single loop of Cinebench23, so not just a simple cooling job. This is also basically in an open bench
 

Newbi 1 Kenewbi

Registered
Joined
Jun 7, 2021
"I don't know from where people are getting all these problems with RAM"

So I reckon it is a matter of luck, others may slap a pair on and work/oc like a charm while others may have to return 2 or 3 sticks until they find a perfect pair.

Do I trust each company's RAM compatibility chart or are these general advice? Do they thoroughly test and oc each RAM with their mobos or they are more like " hmm since this Ram is this and that it should theoretically work from 3600 to 4000) ( but when you try it yourself it wont boot 😑)

What are your feeling regarding Gigabyte mobos? Haven't seen anyone mention it.

I am thinking of buying the G.Skill TridentZ 3600 CL 14 15 15 35 1.45V 4x16gb
F4-3600C14Q-64GTZR

Should I liquid cool the RAM?
 

EarthDog

Gulper Nozzle Co-Owner
Joined
Dec 15, 2008
Location
Buckeyes!
Should I liquid cool the RAM?
Dear LAWD, no! No need. :)

RAM compatibility charts are the best thing we have. That doesn't mean your CPU doesn't have a terrible IMC and can't reach the high(est) clocks though. It isn't The Gospel, but plenty good.

Woomack knows where people come up with that idea... AMD has almost always been more finicky than Intel when it comes to RAM. Ryzen 1000 series was rough out of the gate with compatibility. And these days, X570 matured along with B550 and new CPUs... so now, generally, there are a lot fewer issues with AMD and RAM. With intel, you can plug french fries in the slots and they would work. :p
 

Woomack

Benching Team Leader
Joined
Jan 2, 2005
I just see that when everything works fine then no one even mentions it around the web. When something doesn't work then a single person is spamming every possible thread (a problem can be on both, hardware and user side). Later others think there are issues with RAM but in reality, there are barely any compatibility issues ... as long as it's not the cheapest motherboard and the manufacturer cares to deliver good BIOS after release. In the last years, problems were mainly with cheaper motherboards because after the initial BIOS, there were barely any updates other than new CPU support.

Most AMD related issues (at least from my point of view) were:
1. Problems with the IMC - or too weak or couldn't OC at all. Like 2 of my Ryzens couldn't even boot past DDR4-3200. One of them was Ryzen 5600X. Early X570 motherboards had BIOS fix that was helping in some cases but not all. It's possible to make an RMA and get a CPU replacement if it can't run stable at DDR4-3600+.
2. Problems with BIOS tunning - brands like Gigabyte are releasing so many various versions that they don't care to provide enough updates for lower series or something that isn't popular.
3. Gigabyte + Corsair issue - mainly Vengeance LPX RAM that couldn't work at XMP and couldn't work at 3000+. Gigabyte provided BIOS updates for some, but not all motherboards and it took them 6-12 months to do that. I don't remember problems with most other RAM brands. This issue was coming back every new chipset generation.
4. 400 series motherboards had an AGESA issue that was AMD's fault, most brands fixed it later but early motherboards had sometimes problems running above DDR4-3200.

Early Ryzens had one more problem. The mass market didn't believe in the success so they were not investing additional time and money in BIOS updates or better designs for motherboards. RAM brands were not delivering products tested on AMD chipsets. Everything had XMP compatibility while on AMD some single timings had to be different. Now AMD and Intel motherboards have about the same support.
 

Newbi 1 Kenewbi

Registered
Joined
Jun 7, 2021
I just see that when everything works fine then no one even mentions it around the web. When something doesn't work then a single person is spamming every possible thread (a problem can be on both, hardware and user side). Later others think there are issues with RAM but in reality, there are barely any compatibility issues ... as long as it's not the cheapest motherboard and the manufacturer cares to deliver good BIOS after release. In the last years, problems were mainly with cheaper motherboards because after the initial BIOS, there were barely any updates other than new CPU support.

Most AMD related issues (at least from my point of view) were:
1. Problems with the IMC - or too weak or couldn't OC at all. Like 2 of my Ryzens couldn't even boot past DDR4-3200. One of them was Ryzen 5600X. Early X570 motherboards had BIOS fix that was helping in some cases but not all. It's possible to make an RMA and get a CPU replacement if it can't run stable at DDR4-3600+.
2. Problems with BIOS tunning - brands like Gigabyte are releasing so many various versions that they don't care to provide enough updates for lower series or something that isn't popular.
3. Gigabyte + Corsair issue - mainly Vengeance LPX RAM that couldn't work at XMP and couldn't work at 3000+. Gigabyte provided BIOS updates for some, but not all motherboards and it took them 6-12 months to do that. I don't remember problems with most other RAM brands. This issue was coming back every new chipset generation.
4. 400 series motherboards had an AGESA issue that was AMD's fault, most brands fixed it later but early motherboards had sometimes problems running above DDR4-3200.

Early Ryzens had one more problem. The mass market didn't believe in the success so they were not investing additional time and money in BIOS updates or better designs for motherboards. RAM brands were not delivering products tested on AMD chipsets. Everything had XMP compatibility while on AMD some single timings had to be different. Now AMD and Intel motherboards have about the same support.


An absolutely fantastic sup up and reassurance!
Be careful with cheap mobos, check if they care to update bios often, do not get carried away by whinny ppl that forget to post positive results. Got it.:salute:
Ah, stay away from cheap Gigabyte.
 

Woomack

Benching Team Leader
Joined
Jan 2, 2005
An absolutely fantastic sup up and reassurance!
Be careful with cheap mobos, check if they care to update bios often, do not get carried away by whinny ppl that forget to post positive results. Got it.:salute:
Ah, stay away from cheap Gigabyte.

Stay away from cheap everything as ASRock, ASUS or MSI had bad series too. In the price are included possible support, RMA cost, BIOS updates, and everything else. If it's not a regular office PC then it's sometimes good to pay some more.
For example, expect that ASUS ROG motherboards will have at least 6-8 months longer full BIOS support (like OC improvements, etc.) and updates will be still released up to 3 years after release. Standard motherboards have ~3 months for updates and later you get only something like new CPU support and nothing else. ASRock has that for their top motherboards which are less than for other brands. MSI keeps that almost only for the OC series like Unify and higher. Gigabyte releases too many models and later replaces them with various revisions so don't expect many significant updates other than new CPU support after ~6 months after a motherboard release.

Just my experience over the years and somehow also info from some manufacturers.
 

Newbi 1 Kenewbi

Registered
Joined
Jun 7, 2021
So I am leaning towards the G.Skill Neo 3600 or 3800 Cl14 crossing fingers my 5950x will pull through.

But I've noticed 3600 is 1.35V and 3800 is 1.5V.

So the question is : Is it like the cpus? where 5800, 5900, 5950 are the same chip but depending on the chip lottery the ones able to pull the highest stable freq during factory testing are called "5950s" and other that can't are called "5900s" and "5800s" respectively?

So in this case Gskill 3600 and 3800 are exactly the same batch but 3800 can keep it stable at 1.5V. BUT this means it will runner hotter as well. In other words they have oced their stuff for us leaving us less margin for personal oc.
 

Johan45

Benching Team Leader Super Moderator
Joined
Dec 19, 2012
I'd go for the 3600, probably a bit cheaper, you can OC it yourself and the biggest issue..... your 5950 has no guarantee of running the IMC at 3800 in 1:1 ratio. Maybe only reach 3600 or 3733
 

zerostrykerx

New Member
Joined
Aug 16, 2021
i know this post is couple months old but just wanted to say i can confirm 5950x and dark hero doesnt work well with 4 sticks x16g memory im got trident z neo memory and its f4-4000c16d 32gtzn kits bought 2 kits and with the first kit i can get 4000 with fclk and infinity @2000 but my games were crashing so i went 3800 with 14-14-14 basicly tighter timming and its great but now i added the other kit which i dont think i can send back now i opened it :( but i cant get it to work for the life of me im up now @2133 but anything i try will not boot i though 4 sticks are better than 2 so i fig i try it and have more memory for doing vids

anyhow anyone can help with any timings or set up to get even 3600 working or 3800 would be rocking but i tried everything from 15-15-15 all the way up to 22-22-22 just wont boot i even tried all the way up to 1.8 v lol the only D.O.C.D profile for me is 4000 and wont work..not to sure what i should try next lol just going to keep searching

ty for all you help
 

dejo

Senior Moment Senior Member
Joined
Nov 11, 2001
I seem to remember that some boards/cpu's dont like 1t cmd at high speeds. You could try 2t to see if that helps
 

Woomack

Benching Team Leader
Joined
Jan 2, 2005
@ zerostrykerx
4x16GB rarely works above DDR4-3600 because of motherboards and IMC. It would work up to ~4200 with Ryzen 4000/5000 APU or Intel 11th gen. That's why these kits are sold as 2x16GB. It's easier to set 2x32GB than 4x16GB but Samsung has no good 32GB modules and stuck with Samsung B as everything else is pretty bad for OC.
3600 should work at 16-16-16-36 1.35V 1:1 and everything else at auto as this is how pretty much every Ryzen 5000 works. Problems are starting at 3733. From this point, you can adjust sub-timings as auto settings are not the best but first have to stabilize the frequency. You can try to manually set twCL (or wCL) = CL or manually bump SOC voltage like 1.2-1.3V. As dejo said, you may try command rate 2T as some motherboards are acting weird with 1T and high capacity RAM.
I have no other ideas as 3600 is a pretty standard setting and it almost always works while problems are starting at about 3733+. I could run 4x32GB at 3600 on Strix B550-XE which is quite average so I don't think that the Hero couldn't do the same.