Alder Lake CPUs: Overclocking and general ADL memory/motherboard discussion

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EarthDog

Gulper Nozzle Co-Owner
 
 
 
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Dec 15, 2008
Location
Buckeyes!
Good call, and ty. :)

I've got a 12900K and been having just a little bit of fun with it across a few boards (Hero, Unify, Aorus Pro). I haven't really pushed it overclocking but ended up at 5.1/4.1 GHz. I'm pretty sure there's a lot left in the tank as far as the e-cores go.

I need more time to play with the RAM and see what I can get out of it...but I only have two kits (5200 CL40 and 5600 CL36). The easy button in me just wants DDR5 6000 CL36 or less to drop in and XMP.
 

PolRoger

Member
 
Joined
Jul 31, 2005
I started out using my old NH-12UP cooler. It was fine for stock auto/defaults settings and up to 48x all core. At 49x all core the temps were getting a little high. There are issues getting new cooling adapters/blocks/coolers for LGA 1700. So while I wait for more availability... I found that I could use the new Noctua 1700 bottom bracket parts to mount my Corsair XC7 waterblock and top bracket to my motherboard. :thup: Currently, I'm using a thin 240 rad. The cooling potential should be similar to a 240 AIO. My thin 240 rad was originally intended for my NCase SFF box but I never got around to installing it. I also have a thick 360 on hand if I decide to modify the loop.

P49/E38 all core with XMP 3733C17 (Gear 1) RealBench stress:

i5-12600K 49x38x 3733C17 Gear 1 RealBench load 2.PNG

i5-12600K 49x38x 3733C17 Gear 1 RealBench.PNG
 

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Johan45

Benching Team Leader Super Moderator
 
 
 
Joined
Dec 19, 2012
A little bit of OC, 5.1 P-Cpres and 4.1 E-Cores. Haven't gotten 5.2 stable in AIDA FPU yet.

R23 29002 5.1 4.1.jpg
 

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Woomack

Benching Team Leader
 
 
 
 
Joined
Jan 2, 2005
I started out using my old NH-12UP cooler. It was fine for stock auto/defaults settings and up to 48x all core. At 49x all core the temps were getting a little high. There are issues getting new cooling adapters/blocks/coolers for LGA 1700.

Most AIO will work fine with one additional washer (or even without it if springs provide enough pressure) as the main difference is a thinner IHS. Most mounting kits are already designed for a bit wider socket mount (1366/2011 and others). The problem can be with coolers like Noctua or other higher air coolers as higher-quality series have more precise mounting kits. Noctua can send you an LGA1700 kit. Some other brands are not even offering it.
Back to AIO. Some brands are not releasing LGA1700 kits because they're not required. Check the news and manuals of some brands like Enermax. Their AIO should still fit.

Considering what Johan said and some others, no matter if you have a high series tower cooler or 360 AIO, you can expect ~100C and throttling under a high load. Undervolting is the way to go or it will always hit the throttling point. Check Johan's results at a lowered voltage.

So far I couldn't make my DDR5 kit to boot past 5600. I have no idea if it's a matter of motherboard or RAM. For sure there are issues with the motherboard.
It's a Micron A based kit and so far I could stabilize it at 5400 CL40-42-42 1.30V or 5600 44-44-44 1.35V. I will post some screenshots when I finish the tests.
 

EarthDog

Gulper Nozzle Co-Owner
 
 
 
Joined
Dec 15, 2008
Location
Buckeyes!
as the main difference is a thinner IHS.
Ironically, the IHS is thicker (but not taller). They thinned out the die layer and TIM layer yielding shorter overall package/Z height (iirc by almost a mm).
 

PolRoger

Member
 
Joined
Jul 31, 2005
I will be looking forward to new BIOS updates for this Gigabyte Z690i Ultra (DDR4). My LAN sometimes cuts out when pushing overclocks/memory etc. and the only way get it back working normally is to clear the CMOS jumper back to BIOS defaults. :(

It is my understanding that DDR5 only runs with Gear 2 but DDR4 benefits from running in Gear 1 just like Ryzen does when running sync'd 1/1 memory speeds.

My motherboard BIOS defaults VCCSA @ .0910/.0913v for 2133C15 (stock) and the Auto settings with the current F3 BIOS increase SA up to a max of .0975v. If you want to run higher memory speeds in Gear 1 you will need to manually bump up the SA voltage as you increase your memory speed(s).

I was testing with HyperPi 32M 6C/6T with the E-cores disabled and Hyper threading turned off @ 16-16-16-32 everything else on Auto. Dram voltage was from ~1.340v up to ~1.400v with 1R (single-sided) Samsung B-die 2x8GB kit. If using 2R (doubled-sided) 2x16GB kits you will likely need more VCCSA voltage. I don't have any 2R 2x16GB kits at this time.

3200C16 Gear 1 VCCSA: .0975v (Auto)
3466C16 Gear 1 VCCSA: .0975v (Auto)
3600C16 Gear 1 VCCSA: 1.000v
3733C16 Gear 1 VCCSA: 1.080v
3800C16 Gear 1 VCCSA: 1.140v
3866C16 Gear 1 VCCSA: 1.200v

HyperPi (32M*6) 3866C16 (6C/6T) Hyper threading disabled... SA 1.200v, DRAM 1.400v:

i5-12600K 3866C16 Gear 1 HyperPi 32M 1.200v VCCSA.PNG
 

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Woomack

Benching Team Leader
 
 
 
 
Joined
Jan 2, 2005
DDR5 has Gear 2 and Gear 4. However, my mobo doesn't boot at Gear 4 with RAM up to DDR4-5600. I assume that the IMC frequency would be too low as it would give 700MHz and the lowest clock for CPU is 800MHz. This is just a guess but maybe I'm right.

You may see a better performance at Gear 2 and a higher memory clock. The memory bandwidth is going significantly up with frequency. I think you can set something like 4600-4800 at still quite tight timings.
Intel is not losing as much as AMD because of Gear 2. You may compare results but when I was checking that on Z590 then higher frequency with Gear 2 was always better.

Btw. it's nice to see you can set 3866 at Gear 1. I wasn't checking it on Z690 but almost every Z590 mobo couldn't run at much more than 3600.
 

PolRoger

Member
 
Joined
Jul 31, 2005
I haven't gone beyond 3900 Gear 1 (with just booting into windows and not 32M stable).
I'll try to push/test a little higher with both Gear 1 and Gear 2...
It would be nice to get new a BIOS released with improved memory performance.
With Gear 2 @4000... A quick AIDA memory benchmark was showing worse latency results then @3900 Gear 1.

I've been running lately (as a daily) at P49/E39 3800C16 Gear 1.

Ring/cache/NB on auto runs 45x on the P-cores and 36x on the E-cores. If the E-cores are active Ring will drop down to 36x. With the E-cores disabled... Ring on Auto runs at 45x.

P49/E39 (HT enabled) HyperPi 32M*16 3800C16 VCCSA 1.140v DRAM 1.380v:

i5-12600K P49 E39 HT enabled 3800C16 Gear 1 HyperPi  32Mx16 1.140v VCCSA DRAM 1.380v.140v VCCSA .png

P49/E39 AIDA Memory Benchmark:

i5-12600K P49 E38 3800C16 Gear 1 AIDA memory benchmark.PNG
 

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PolRoger

Member
 
Joined
Jul 31, 2005
I was testing some higher memory clocks today. The BIOS for the Z690i Ultra (DDR4) needs further work where there are a few settings that are not working correctly.

3900/1950 Gear 1 (Yes)
4000/2000 Gear 1 (Yes)
4000 Gear 2 (Yes) 4100/4133 both boot @4000.
4200 Gear 2 (Yes) 4300 boots @4200.
4266 Gear 2 (Yes)
4400 Gear 2 (Yes) 4500 boots @4400.
4533 Gear 2 (Yes) 4666 boots @4533 and Windows BSOD @4533 with no further testing at this time.
4600 Gear 2 (No) Clear CMOS jumper but 4700 boots @4600 (Yes) Did not load Windows at this time.
4800 Gear 2 (No) Clear CMOS jumper.

Gear 2 does give increased bandwidth improvements at higher memory speeds while Latency remains better in Gear 1.

i5-12600K P49 E disabled 3200C14 Gear 1 AIDA memory benchmark:

i5-12600K P49 E disabled 3200C14 Gear 1 AIDA memory benchmark.PNG

i5-12600K P49 E disabled 4400C17 Gear 2 AIDA memory benchmark:

i5-12600K P49 E disabled 4400C17 Gear 2 AIDA memory benchmark.PNG



4000 Gear 1 vs. 4000 Gear 2 comparison below...



i5-12600K P49 E-Disabled 4000C17 Gear 2 AIDA memory benchmark:

i5-12600K P49 E-Disabled 4000C17 Gear 2 AIDA memory benchmark.PNG

i5-12600K P49 E disabled 4000C18 Gear 1 AIDA memory benchmark:

i5-12600K P49 E disabled 4000C18 Gear 1 AIDA memory benchmark.PNG
 

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Woomack

Benching Team Leader
 
 
 
 
Joined
Jan 2, 2005
I wasn't comparing it directly on Z690 but on Z590 it was like Gear 2 was already better at DDR4-4600 and my RAM could go up to 5000+. Latency was still a bit worse but the much higher copy bandwidth was helping in almost everything. Memory copy is about how OS sees memory "performance" so even though latency can be worse then results suppose to be the same or better. I'm also talking about not very relaxed timings at 4600+.
I don't know if you can compare single and dual rank as in general, dual-rank will give you a couple of % performance at the same clock, and then you may find gear 2 and dual-rank a better option at lower than expected clock. In the end, the best DDR4 seems high binned dual-rank Hynix that can run at 4600+, even at more relaxed timings. Samsung B dual-rank, barely ever runs at more than 4266.
Either way, the difference in performance can be visible if you add all the factors so higher clock, tighter timings, gear, dual-rank, ... For sure there is no point to run gear 2 at anything below ~4266 and if you have RAM that can make 4000 gear 1 then gear 2 has some point at about 4600-4800.

Back to memory copy/latency, DDR5 at ~5200 will give you 75GB/s memory copy and about 75ns latency. DDR4-4000 Gear 1 will give you (as in the last screenshots) ~57GB/s memory copy and 55ns latency. Still, DDR5 will be as fast or a bit faster. In the same way, high DDR4 Gear 2 (that runs at significantly lower timings than DDR5) will be as fast or a bit faster than the Gear 1 at a lower clock. The difference isn't very significant but in some benchmarks based on games, I see between 0-5FPS better results on DDR5 when the average is 70-100FPS. I mean Assassin's Creed, FarCry, Tomb Raider, and similar game benchmarks.

Btw. do you know if there is any Gigabyte website/FTP with beta BIOS releases? I know there used to be but I wasn't using higher Gigabyte motherboards for some longer.
I see there is still old TT forum thread but no beta BIOS for Z690 - click
 

darknud3soup

New Member
Joined
Nov 17, 2021
Hi, im new to the Forum.
Hope this is not off topic, but you guys seem very competent :D

I recently got a 12600k on a gigabyte z690 gaming x and running 2x 8GB Ballistix 3600 cl 16 on it.
I've used this exact kit on my old (skylake) Build before and it run fine on xmp settings.

When i enable XMP on my z690 board it will run in Gear 2 by default and will not boot in Gear 1 without increasing VCCSA manually to something like 0.97v because auto is using just 0.938v

Im super careful with my new pc and dont feel very confident changing settings manually.

I actually checked the intel Technical Documentation (huge pdf) to see what the default VCCSA for the 12600k is but could not find it and there aren't any Alderlake DDR4 OC guides yet that say what voltage is safe for 27/7 use.

Can i be assured that running System Agent Voltage at 1v will not destroy my IMC in a few months? Is there any chance that a bios Update will change the VCCSA "auto" voltage when using xmp?
 

Johan45

Benching Team Leader Super Moderator
 
 
 
Joined
Dec 19, 2012
Hi, im new to the Forum.
Hope this is not off topic, but you guys seem very competent :D

I recently got a 12600k on a gigabyte z690 gaming x and running 2x 8GB Ballistix 3600 cl 16 on it.
I've used this exact kit on my old (skylake) Build before and it run fine on xmp settings.

When i enable XMP on my z690 board it will run in Gear 2 by default and will not boot in Gear 1 without increasing VCCSA manually to something like 0.97v because auto is using just 0.938v

Im super careful with my new pc and dont feel very confident changing settings manually.

I actually checked the intel Technical Documentation (huge pdf) to see what the default VCCSA for the 12600k is but could not find it and there aren't any Alderlake DDR4 OC guides yet that say what voltage is safe for 27/7 use.

Can i be assured that running System Agent Voltage at 1v will not destroy my IMC in a few months? Is there any chance that a bios Update will change the VCCSA "auto" voltage when using xmp?

You'll be fine upping the VCCSA as the speed increases that voltage will rise and running in gear one has a higher demand on the system agent so it needs a bit more juice.. You'll be fine up to 1.2V
 

Woomack

Benching Team Leader
 
 
 
 
Joined
Jan 2, 2005
Temps are slightly better than on 11th gen Intels but not so much. When you leave 12900K at auto and load it to the max, then it will pass 250W (max supposed to be 241W but it still goes a bit higher). Expect that no matter if you use the best air cooler or 360 AIO, then the CPU will throttle. AIDA64 shows about 15% throttling on both types of coolers. On the other hand, the 12th gen is not dropping clocks on all cores when any throttling occurs. It drops only "overheating" cores. In the previous gens, all cores were going down by 400-500MHz. So even though there is some throttling then the performance is still not so much worse.
The throttling point is 100°C.

Re SA, auto is still ~0.95V but it may go up to 1.35V when you set higher memory clock. It should be still safe up to at least 1.35-1.40V. The same as in earlier generations, there is no clear info what would be max safe voltage. Memory controller in the case of DDR4 isn't much different than it was in the 11th gen and then even 1.5V+ was fine. I'm not saying it's for sure safe for longer 24/7 work as 11th gen wasn't even properly tested by Intel and was on the market barely a couple of months. No one will guarantee anything but auto settings on motherboards usually suggest where is the "safe" limit.
 

darknud3soup

New Member
Joined
Nov 17, 2021
Cannot find the "thank you" button in this forum, so thank you Johan45 and Woomack.

Very strange that some Gigabyte boards dont seem to adjust SA at all by enabling XMP, while PolRogers Gigabyte Z690i Ultra at least goes up to 0.975V.
Maybe because the "cheaper" boards will go to Gear 2 by default for everything faster than 3200 so the bios would not need to increase voltage.

Product Reviews of the Z690 AORUS ELITE suggest that it also fails to boot 3600 XMP in gear 1 by default.
 

Johan45

Benching Team Leader Super Moderator
 
 
 
Joined
Dec 19, 2012
Cannot find the "thank you" button in this forum, so thank you Johan45 and Woomack.

Very strange that some Gigabyte boards dont seem to adjust SA at all by enabling XMP, while PolRogers Gigabyte Z690i Ultra at least goes up to 0.975V.
Maybe because the "cheaper" boards will go to Gear 2 by default for everything faster than 3200 so the bios would not need to increase voltage.

Product Reviews of the Z690 AORUS ELITE suggest that it also fails to boot 3600 XMP in gear 1 by default.

3200 is Intels "official" compatibility for Gear1 on 12th gen CPUs
 

PolRoger

Member
 
Joined
Jul 31, 2005
Product Reviews of the Z690 AORUS ELITE suggest that it also fails to boot 3600 XMP in gear 1 by default.

My motherboard also defaults to Gear 2 with memory speeds above Intel's official 3200 compatibility/support setting for Gear 1.

It is still quite early in the ADL support/release cycle. I've been checking most everyday for a new BIOS release and today there is a new F5a BIOS on the Gigabyte website. :thup:

BTW... There is also a new F6a BIOS for the Z690 Aorus Elite.
 

Voodoo Rufus

Powder Junkie Moderator
 
 
 
Joined
Sep 20, 2001
Temps are slightly better than on 11th gen Intels but not so much. When you leave 12900K at auto and load it to the max, then it will pass 250W (max supposed to be 241W but it still goes a bit higher). Expect that no matter if you use the best air cooler or 360 AIO, then the CPU will throttle. AIDA64 shows about 15% throttling on both types of coolers. On the other hand, the 12th gen is not dropping clocks on all cores when any throttling occurs. It drops only "overheating" cores. In the previous gens, all cores were going down by 400-500MHz. So even though there is some throttling then the performance is still not so much worse.
The throttling point is 100°C.

Re SA, auto is still ~0.95V but it may go up to 1.35V when you set higher memory clock. It should be still safe up to at least 1.35-1.40V. The same as in earlier generations, there is no clear info what would be max safe voltage. Memory controller in the case of DDR4 isn't much different than it was in the 11th gen and then even 1.5V+ was fine. I'm not saying it's for sure safe for longer 24/7 work as 11th gen wasn't even properly tested by Intel and was on the market barely a couple of months. No one will guarantee anything but auto settings on motherboards usually suggest where is the "safe" limit.

I pretty much rule out any air cooler or AIO for heavy duty use. I was hoping that with a custom loop one would be able to keep it from throttling. Do you think that's feasible?