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bigtallanddopey

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Nov 7, 2016
I just hope for AMD graphics cards that it isn’t too little, too late. Nvidia will have a month or so of sales and videos from tech tubers and months of hype. They could get left behind and be irrelevant if they are not releasing cards on that day. If that launch party announces cards will be available December/January then I will be off our for a 3070.

Having said that, I think they have the technology and I hope they come out fighting. I don’t think wi will be seeing a 3090 beating card, but a card that is better than the 3080? Quite possible.


 
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EarthDog

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I don't see it beating a 3080 if the performance metrics we've seen leaked hold true. And that isn't even counting RT and DLSS. I think in straight rasterization Big Navi will still be at least 15% slower.

The 2080Ti is ~45% faster than a 5700XT. AMD essentially needs an 85% bump or greater to reach it. I don't recall seeing a jump that large before.
 

Kenrou

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The 2080Ti is ~45% faster than a 5700XT. AMD essentially needs an 85% bump or greater to reach it.

At the risk of sounding like an AMD fanboy — Nop sorry, the 5700xt has traded blows with the 2070s for quite a few months, and as it stands now overall is on par if not better than them (especially considering price), and the 2070s are what, 20%-30% slower than the 2080ti, maybe, depending on the game/workload ? Yes it needs a big jump and I'm not holding any candles for it, but nowhere near as bad as what you mentioned :D
 
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EarthDog

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At the risk of sounding like an AMD fanboy — Nop sorry, the 5700xt has traded blows with the 2070s for quite a few months, and as it stands now overall is on par if not better than them (especially considering price), and the 2070s are what, 20%-30% slower than the 2080ti, maybe, depending on the game/workload ? Yes it needs a big jump and I'm not holding any candles for it, but nowhere near as bad as what you mentioned :D
1440p....2080ti is 46% faster.
https://www.techpowerup.com/review/amd-radeon-rx-5700-xt/28.html

I never mentioned a 2070s. ;)

Edit: newest review...latest drivers and updated titles....43%. Its also 9% slower than a 2070 super (reference to fe, or 8% overclockdd 5700xt to fe).
https://www.techpowerup.com/review/asus-radeon-rx-5700-xt-tuf-evo/28.html
 
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bmwbaxter

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Either big navi or 3000 series is gonna be my upgrade. Both should be a good improvement from my GTX 1080 for 1440P.
 

Janus67

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Looks like Zen3 will be the 8th and RDNA2 will be the 28th

 
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EarthDog

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I wonder if the clocks are being tweaked behind the scenes on Navi now they have an idea of Ampere.
 

Kenrou

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1440p....2080ti is 46% faster.
https://www.techpowerup.com/review/amd-radeon-rx-5700-xt/28.html

I never mentioned a 2070s. ;)

Edit: newest review...latest drivers and updated titles....43%. Its also 9% slower than a 2070 super (reference to fe, or 8% overclockdd 5700xt to fe).
https://www.techpowerup.com/review/asus-radeon-rx-5700-xt-tuf-evo/28.html

Remember just how much drivers have an impact on AMD architecture (I mentioned the 2070s as a point of reference to the 2080ti). He used 20.2.2 and this was 1 month ago with 20.7.2 ~20mhz higher (~2100mhz) than my stock boost clock (~2080mhz). As far as I've read in forums, most 5700xt can hit that and probably higher, it's just a matter of managing voltages and heat, namely the hotspot, put them under water and they will perform much better especially at the ridiculously overvolted stock. Again, consider they cost just over half of a 2070s before nVidia slashed prices (at least on this side of the Atlantic), yes drivers had issues, but they were corrected for most users by now :)

Honestly, does this look like ~45% slower than a 2080ti ?

FireStrike.jpg

TimeSpy.jpg
 
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EarthDog

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Kenrou... stock for stock and overclock for overclock. If you're talking about overclocking a 5700xt, you need to do the same to the 2080ti as well. The Song Remains the Same (similar).

2080ti FE scores over 14k in TS...so, yes....looks like 40%+ there too. As far as FS, that runs at 1080p... im not concerned at that cpu bound resolution with these two cards and never run it. Try FS Extreme. 5700xt is a solid 1440p card, 2080ti is 1440p/4k. Those are also synthetic tests. TPU tested across 21 games or so and came up with that average.

I assure you running 20.7.2 wouldn't be much different. In fact, we'll find out soon enough I'd imagine if he redoes his test for Ampere. Fine wine hasn't done much...a couple % on average, some none, some several % improvements. Both driver camps work that way. AMD just chooses to put a fun name behind it and advertise. ;)

EDIT: That said, I don't want this thread to become a back and forth about the performance of previous Navi gens. I know I mentioned it, but it was just a reference to how far they have to go (assuming all NV rumors are close to true) to catch up. :thup:
 
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bigtallanddopey

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Kenrou... stock for stock and overclock for overclock. If you're talking about overclocking a 5700xt, you need to do the same to the 2080ti as well. The Song Remains the Same.

2080ti FE scores over 14k in TS...so, yes....looks like 40%+ there too. As far as FS.... that runs at 1080p... im not concerned at that cpu bound resolution with these two cards. 5700xt is a solid 1440p card, 2080ti is 1440p/4k.

Fine wine has been closer to Mad Dog 20/20...

All I know

10k vs 14k is a 40% increase, however it is only 30% faster because of math and all that.

And the 30% is about what you see when you compare FPS in games between the 5700Xt and the 2080ti at 1080p and 1440p anyway. The 2080ti is way faster in 4K because of vram etc.

You also have to apply the same thinking to nvidia’s slides etc. Some outlets have been touting the 3080 as being 50% faster than a 2080ti when in fact it is around 40% (still impressive) because of maths.

So if you increase the 14k timespy score by 40% you get about 19.5k. 10.5k for the 5700xt vs 19.5k for the 3080 is around 46-50% (twice as fast) faster than the 5700xt.

Very scrap paper maths but it’s not far out.

So are we saying that AMD cannot make a card that is twice as fast as the 5700xt? I think they can. However Nvidia will then drop a 20GB 3080 and win again. And of course they have the beast of the 3090 which will rain supreme.


 
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EarthDog

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10k vs 14k is a 40% increase, however it is only 30% faster because of math and all that.
4000 is 40% of 10000. We're comparing results to the 10K value, not 14K where 4000 is ~30% (of 14000). In other words, in order to be 40% faster than itself, the 5700XT needs to hit 14K. Please see the links I provided as well. TPU must have the math wrong too? Other websites as well? Do I need my caffeine this morning? :p

And the 30% is about what you see when you compare FPS in games between the 5700Xt and the 2080ti at 1080p and 1440p anyway. The 2080ti is way faster in 4K because of vram etc.
Again... my results are from 1440p. Nobody in their right mind runs a 5700XT at 4K and a 2080ti at 1080p. The latter is wholly CPU bound and not a fair comparison. 4K....... not sure why that was mentioned. At 4K, the 2080Ti pulls away even more (for the reasons you stated among others - see links I provided).

So if you increase the 14k timespy score by 40% you get about 19.5k. 10.5k for the 5700xt vs 19.5k for the 3080 is around 46-50% (twice as fast) faster than the 5700xt.
That is nearly 100% faster. 100% faster is 2x. If card A scores 10K and needs to reach 20K, that is 2x or 100% faster. Respectfully, I think your math is wrong here (%).


So are we saying that AMD cannot make a card that is twice as fast as the 5700xt? I think they can
Have we ever seen a 100% increase in performance between a single generation? Mind you, this increase is on a 'tweaked' process a 'new' arch (versus new arch and die shrink). So, no, I don't have faith they can produce a card ~ twice as fast. I hope I am wrong though.... I see their flagship slotting in between a 3070 and 3080. Closer to the 3080, but still at least 15% behind.
 
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Kenrou

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Kenrou... stock for stock and overclock for overclock. If you're talking about overclocking a 5700xt, you need to do the same to the 2080ti as well. The Song Remains the Same.

2080ti FE scores over 14k in TS...so, yes....looks like 40%+ there too. As far as FS, that runs at 1080p... im not concerned at that cpu bound resolution with these two cards. Try FS Extreme. 5700xt is a solid 1440p card, 2080ti is 1440p/4k. Those are also synthetic tests. TPU tested across 21 games or so and came up with that average.

Mine was ~20mhz over stock, hardly what you would call an overclock, difference was that it was undervolted and running cooler which does make a big difference in benchs/games because it can maintain boost clock longer, mine was running 1.2v @stock. Drivers evolved, bugs were fixed and the 5700xt became much faster than at launch or even 4 months ago, I would assume it still has some wiggle room with further development (which will likely halt when big Navi comes along), it was slower than a 2060 and now it's a match for a 2070s. nVidia could learn a thing or two in that regard no ?

Just stating that (right now) is not as bad as you made it sound :) And yes, I know I'm sounding like a fanboy which is strange because this is the 1st AMD card I ever had and will probably be switched for a 3070/3080 if the rumours hold true about performance.

FireStrike Ultra.jpg

TimeSpy Extreme.jpg

EDIT: yep just saw your edit, we're getting wildly off track which is also my bad, so getting back to Navi rumours (which to be fair, there aren't almost any) :p
 
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EarthDog

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Mine was ~20mhz over stock, hardly what you would call an overclock, difference was that it was undervolted and running cooler which does make a big difference in benchs/games because it can maintain boost clock longer, mine was running 1.2v @stock. Drivers evolved, bugs were fixed and the 5700xt became much faster than at launch or even 4 months ago, I would assume it still has some wiggle room with further development (which will likely halt when big Navi comes along), it was slower than a 2060 and now it's a match for a 2070s. nVidia could learn a thing or two in that regard no ?

Just stating that (right now) is not as bad as you made it sound And yes, I know I'm sounding like a fanboy which is strange because this is the 1st AMD card I ever had and will probably be switched for a 3070/3080 if the rumours hold true about performance.
Respectfully, you've been drinking too much AMD Kool0aid me thinks. Fine wine isn't as fine as some make it out to be. Many even call it Mad Dog 20/20 :p. Look at what Adrenalin 2020 did for some users. What is supposed to be an annual super stable performance improving driver borked some users experience and had to roll back and wait for new ones. I believe there was a couple % increase from A2019 to A2020... but it isn't putting a dent in the 40%+ lead.

Again, synthetics... and ones I haven't run to compare, lol... I see your synthetics and raise you over 20 games that show exactly what I am talking about. It IS that big of a difference. It's there in front of you... properly tested by across more games than anyone I know of. Sorry man.


EDIT: yep just saw your edit, we're getting wildly off track which is also my bad, so getting back to Navi rumours (which to be fair, there aren't almost any)
:thup:
 
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Kenrou

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Respectfully, you've been drinking too much AMD Kool0aid me thinks. Fine wine isn't as fine as some make it out to be. Many even call it Mad Dog 20/20. Look what the
big' adrenalin 2020 did for people... many who installed it had issues and needed the hotfix/next driver.

Again, synthetics... and ones I haven't run to compare, lol... I see your synthetics and raise you over 20 games that show exactly what I am talking about. It IS that big of a difference. It's there in front of you... properly tested by across more games than anyone I know of. Sorry man.

That is very true, the new control panel caused a raucous but it was only for some people, same as any problem with nVidia. I haven't had any crash since 20.7.2 and even before that they were extremely rare and almost always due to undervolting, my only true issue was always the hotspot temp. I don't know what to tell you but that I usually have higher (sometimes much higher) scores than the game benchs I usually see on Hardware Unboxed for example, and my “silent” 24/7 is ~250mhz/0.1v underclock from my stock settings — and I bet you whatever you want that I'm not the only one :(

On that note I wonder whether AMD is planning on going with the same control panel for the next gen ?
 
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EarthDog

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On that note I wonder whether AMD is planning on going with the same control panel for the next gen ?
Good question. I'd certainly imagine so... it's not even a year old.
 

DaveB

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AMD made an 'annoucement' of sorts.... announcing we'll hear more about Zen3 and RDNA2 on October 29th.

Well, GPU-wise they announced absolutely nothing which means they have nothing finalized and intend to still be tweaking in response to nVidia reviews. If the nVidia reviews are good, all AMD can do is raise the power limit and come out with another line of noisy space heaters. October 29 is too late since the nVidia horses will have left the barn and be out in the wild. It seems AMD is sharing little or nothing with their AIB partners as usual so only noisy AMD blowers will be available anyway. Then it will take several months for the 3rd party manufacturers to get their issues sorted, and then another 6 months for AMD to de-bug the RDNA2 drivers. AMD is too small to compete in both CPUs and GPUs. Plus their wafer capacity will be mostly used up with Zen3 which doesn't allow for enough GPU production. If I feel the need to upgrade my RX 5700 XT it will likely be with the 225W RTX 3070. I always swing back and forth between AMD and Intel, and AMD and nVidia anyway. Not a fan of any corporation, just buy whatever is best for my needs.
 
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EarthDog

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Well, GPU-wise they announced absolutely nothing which means they have nothing finalized and intend to still be tweaking in response to nVidia reviews. If the nVidia reviews are good, all AMD can do is raise the power limit and come out with another line of noisy space heaters. October 29 is too late since the nVidia horses will have left the barn and be out in the wild. It seems AMD is sharing little or nothing with their AIB partners as usual so only noisy AMD blowers will be available anyway. Then it will take several months for the 3rd party manufacturers to get their issues sorted, and then another 6 months for AMD to de-bug the RDNA2 drivers. AMD is too small to compete in both CPUs and GPUs. Plus their wafer capacity will be mostly used up with Zen3 which doesn't allow for enough GPU production. If I feel the need to upgrade my RX 5700 XT it will likely be with the 225W RTX 3070. I always swing back and forth between AMD and Intel, and AMD and nVidia anyway. Not a fan of any corporation, just buy whatever is best for my needs.
I have more faith than this with drivers and AIBs. :p

I expect to see AIB cards out within a month or so as is typical. There will still be a slow trickle of more, but we'll see full-fledged AIB cards sooner than 'several months' IMO.
 

bmwbaxter

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Well, GPU-wise they announced absolutely nothing which means they have nothing finalized and intend to still be tweaking in response to nVidia reviews. If the nVidia reviews are good, all AMD can do is raise the power limit and come out with another line of noisy space heaters. October 29 is too late since the nVidia horses will have left the barn and be out in the wild. It seems AMD is sharing little or nothing with their AIB partners as usual so only noisy AMD blowers will be available anyway. Then it will take several months for the 3rd party manufacturers to get their issues sorted, and then another 6 months for AMD to de-bug the RDNA2 drivers. AMD is too small to compete in both CPUs and GPUs. Plus their wafer capacity will be mostly used up with Zen3 which doesn't allow for enough GPU production. If I feel the need to upgrade my RX 5700 XT it will likely be with the 225W RTX 3070. I always swing back and forth between AMD and Intel, and AMD and nVidia anyway. Not a fan of any corporation, just buy whatever is best for my needs.

This was posted in the 3000 series thread:
Speaking of the 8nm nodes :

https://wccftech.com/report-nvidia-geforce-rtx-30-gpus-to-be-in-short-supply-until-2021/

"But there is one story I wanted to sit down and make sure I wrote, and that was from an industry source who told me that post-launch there will be "no stock will be available till the end of the year". The first wave of cards is said to be small, very, very small -- possibly the smallest launch in many years. Another source had something much more damning to say, but I want to flesh that out before I write it. For now, I'm being told stock will be extremely low for the next couple of months. Why? Samsung 8nm yields are unknown at this point, NVIDIA might not want to make too many before the yields improve."

https://www.tweaktown.com/news/7491...rds-tight-supply-until-end-of-year/index.html

To me this means oct 29th might not too late if the nvidia launch is only a paper launch with no pre-orders. it means consumers will still have money to spend come 2021 when both manufacturers cards actually hit market. If amd on the 29th announces actual availability for holiday 2020 it might work out well. Have to wait and see what the announcement on the 29th actually holds.