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Woomack

Benching Team Leader
Joined
Jan 2, 2005
Yes. Not all of the 1st PCIE slots will be Gen5 though. Costs savings by staying Gen4 spec.

All popular/above average B650E mobos that I see have main PCIe slot 5.0 and x16 + M.2 PCIe 5.0. If B650E will be significantly cheaper then I don't get why anyone would pay for X670E mobos as they give us barely anything more. Compare Aorus X670E Master and B650E Master. Nearly everything is the same.
I also see that Gigabyte is preparing their extreme OC Tachyon with B650E chipset.

One more thing I don't get (yet, but maybe will test it soon) is how some mobos have support for DDR5-6600. In theory it shouldn't even boot. Even for rankings all that I see use 6400. My mobo couldn't boot with [email protected]

Btw. I don't think that anyone has Crosshair X670E Gene but the new BIOS was released today. I can't see any update log.
 

SF101

The Printer Guru
Joined
Feb 9, 2002
I havent even really tried running mem over 6000mhz just tightened the timings down a bit.
A detailed upgraded overclocking guide for 7000 series once the nich settings are figured out might be in order.
I looked around and its pretty hit and miss on useful guides or understanding what your changes are acomplishing chip to chip because their does seem to be some differences.
 
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Woomack

Benching Team Leader
Joined
Jan 2, 2005
I havent even really tried running mem over 6000mhz just tightened the timings down a bit.
A detailed upgraded overclocking guide for 7000 series once the nich settings are figured out might be in order.
I looked around and its pretty hit and miss on useful guides or understanding what your changes are acomplishing chip to chip because their does seem to be some differences.

Ryzen 5000 guide is probably a good start, as not much has changed ;) At least the basics and AMD OC options are not much different (additional tabs with standard AMD settings).
Looking at RAM, 6000 is recommended, and is the "sweet spot", 6400 is easy to set and 100% stable on pretty much every motherboard, and also the max clock. Every IC except for Micron will make 6400, so like every 6000+ kit on the market and most 5600.
There are only vendor-specific options that can change a bit, but for most users, it will be a waste of time. I mean enhanced/performance modes or split fclk like ASUS has. It will give +/- 100MHz more.
The most important seems to keep the CPU cool enough, so it boosts high or keeps the high clock on all cores. For that, you literally need vcore (and related settings like offsets etc.) and a good cooler.
 

MisterEd

Member
Joined
May 10, 2004
Location
Alabama
All popular/above average B650E mobos that I see have main PCIe slot 5.0 and x16 + M.2 PCIe 5.0. If B650E will be significantly cheaper then I don't get why anyone would pay for X670E mobos as they give us barely anything more. Compare Aorus X670E Master and B650E Master. Nearly everything is the same.
I also see that Gigabyte is preparing their extreme OC Tachyon with B650E chipset.

One more thing I don't get (yet, but maybe will test it soon) is how some mobos have support for DDR5-6600. In theory it shouldn't even boot. Even for rankings all that I see use 6400. My mobo couldn't boot with [email protected]

Btw. I don't think that anyone has Crosshair X670E Gene but the new BIOS was released today. I can't see any update log.
I see that the B650E Aorus Master website says it supports DDR5-6600 but the Crosshair X670E Gene does not. It could be marketing hype or wishful thinking. Of course, with BIOS updates it may be possible in 6 months. Before the BIOS officially supports faster RAM some people may be able to get faster RAM to work with manual tweaking the timings. Of course being stable is another matter.
 

Woomack

Benching Team Leader
Joined
Jan 2, 2005
I see that the B650E Aorus Master website says it supports DDR5-6600 but the Crosshair X670E Gene does not. It could be marketing hype or wishful thinking. Of course, with BIOS updates it may be possible in 6 months. Before the BIOS officially supports faster RAM some people may be able to get faster RAM to work with manual tweaking the timings. Of course being stable is another matter.

I haven't seen higher than DDR5-6400 on any X670E QVL. ASUS motherboards have listed a max of 6200, and there are barely any kits. All ASUS motherboards have a max of 6400 in specs. ASRock/Gigabyte/MSI have info about 6600 support and have many more kits on QVL, but not higher than 6400. The main problem is how Ryzen 7000 works and it can be improved in the next-gen (like the 3000 was more limited than the 5000). By default, it simply won't run at more than 6400 1:1. There are also no AMD kits at more than 6400, while the same brands have Intel kits up to 7000+ already. Team Group had a press release some days ago showing a "ready" DDR5-7200 kit for Z790 motherboards.

Edit:
I didn't have much time, but I was playing a bit with some settings on my X670E Gene, and it looks like this:
- The latest BIOS added XMP/DOCP/EXPO I and II (automatically detected when RAM support any of these profiles) - before was only one default profile. So now it works like in the previous series, one profile takes main timings and optimizes sub-timings, and the second one uses a full profile timing table.
- The RAM settings above DDR5-6400 don't work, and I get a 00 error code. I was checking the uclk at 1:1 and 1:2 with the same result. I wonder if this is a current generation limit or just early BIOS. On 3000/5000 Ryzen, it was possible to set a much higher RAM clock with a 1:2 ratio.
- Max fclk is 2100MHz. Above that, I can't make OS boot. At fclk above 2000MHz, uclk ratio has to be set manually to 1:1, or it will run at 1:2. This is just if you wonder why RAM performance is worse when you set a higher clock.

So far, it looks like you don't have to worry about any special RAM for the new AMD, even for benching. No matter what you do, most even budget series (if you can say that about DDR5) will be limited by the platform. Since it doesn't matter what RAM you take, then it also doesn't matter much what motherboard you get, as nearly all are rated at DDR5-6400. Most seem to be good enough as long as they have all the features you need and no design flaws (time will tell if all are problem-free). Lower chipsets also won't make a big difference.
 
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Woomack

Benching Team Leader
Joined
Jan 2, 2005
I can't make all cores work at 5.5GHz. CCD0 seems to work at 5.5GHz, CCD1 at 5.4GHz.

Some weird things I noticed, probably related to early BIOS:
- Voltage and temp readings are different everywhere, so I'm not really sure what is correct. Ryzen Master temps are 10-40°C higher than what I see in ASUS soft. The same voltages are anywhere between 1.19-1.29V when I set 1.25V in BIOS (higher LLC). In the same time Ryzen Master shows 1.27V, ASUS soft 1.19V, CPU-Z suggests 1.29V VID.
- 1.30-1.35V Vcore + AI OC + high manual cooler prediction gives lower temps and higher boost than manual 1.25V. In both cases software reads about 1.27-1.28V.
- When I unlock PPT/TDC/EDC to the max then it's crashing under full load. When I only enable enhanced PBO (the same but instead of infinity it sets 1k A/W limit) then it's stable.
- On the Gene I can set separate bclk for the CPU and everything else. However, when I do that then the OS has problems with booting. When I disable this option and set higher bclk then it works, but the limit seems at about 103.5MHz.

I wish I could set 5.4GHz for all cores under load and boost up to 6GHz for single cores. For some reason, it was working once, until I cleared CMOS. I saved a profile, but it doesn't work anymore and it only goes up to 5.4GHz. It was working when I enabled AI OC, +200MHz boost, manually high cooler prediction, higher LLC and enhanced PBO. Nothing else, so cores were at auto.
With +200MHz boost (it's max possible to set), my CPU boosts up to 6.05GHz on single cores.
All results with ASUS 360 AIO.

54gx67.jpg
 

Voodoo Rufus

Powder Junkie Moderator
Joined
Sep 20, 2001
Location
Bakersfield, CA
Another new low for mainboard specs: I was searching for the cheapest B650 board I can find with a decent audio code (ALC1220 or better). Many of the cheap boards only list a "Realtek high-definition codec". Apparently, they don't want to say which cheap chip they put on there for audio.
 

EarthDog

Gulper Nozzle Co-Owner
Joined
Dec 15, 2008
Location
Buckeyes!
Another new low for mainboard specs: I was searching for the cheapest B650 board I can find with a decent audio code (ALC1220 or better). Many of the cheap boards only list a "Realtek high-definition codec". Apparently, they don't want to say which cheap chip they put on there for audio.
It's likely the Realtek ALC897. There isn't much further down the stack. ;)
 

Voodoo Rufus

Powder Junkie Moderator
Joined
Sep 20, 2001
Location
Bakersfield, CA
Yeah, the 897 is the go-to for the bottom of the barrel boards.

This tells me that some are too embarrassed to say they're still using it. I can't find what the parts cost difference is between the two but I can't imagine it's much.
 

SF101

The Printer Guru
Joined
Feb 9, 2002
Hard to break 29k under water.. this cpu wont do 5.7ghz it will lock every try but 5650 is ok even with lower volts etc.. feels like I found that voltage wall .. as for the GPU not really yet I guess.
 

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Woomack

Benching Team Leader
Joined
Jan 2, 2005
Yeah, the 897 is the go-to for the bottom of the barrel boards.

This tells me that some are too embarrassed to say they're still using it. I can't find what the parts cost difference is between the two but I can't imagine it's much.

I haven't heard any significant difference between audio in 2-3 years, but I wasn't really following what codec has which motherboard. I guess it's because of the PCB design and additional components, like divided audio section with premium caps and other things like that. The first that actually made a difference in a long time was Gigabyte Z690 Master, but I heard that the X670E Master is already worse.
Weird is that all manufacturers use only Realtek HD Audio in specs for everything cheaper. ASUS specs suggest it's ALC1220, but who knows and barely anyone will review these lower mobos. Strix series and everything higher has the codec listed, but their price is ridiculous.
You can also see that ASUS is using external audio for some of their high series ITX mobos and most have only 2 jacks with optical output as an option. I guess that everything is going step back, but a significant part of the market won't see that or won't care.

Hard to break 29k under water.. this cpu wont do 5.7ghz it will lock every try but 5650 is ok even with lower volts etc.. feels like I found that voltage wall .. as for the GPU not really yet I guess.

I made #1 on 7950X+RX6800XT in the first run and top 99% score in RX6800XT category with everything at auto :)

I guess you have a great chip. I was thinking that mine is below average but in some random reviews, all are complaining that can't make more than 5.2-5.3GHz on all cores when I can set 5.4GHz+. Still Johan has 5.5GHz. Typically CCD0 is better than CCD1 so maybe try 5.70-5.75GHz on CCD0 and 5.65GHz on CCD1.

I find lowering voltages a bit tricky. You can't lower it too much as higher clocks (above some point) need higher voltages. You can't lower it with some other boost options enabled or it loses stability.
For 3DMarks you can play with PBO override options and +200MHz boost. 3D tests usually use single cores so the higher boost should help. Ryzen Master curve profile should give you higher all core clock and single core boost. It's not perfect as I see, but if you haven't tried it then maybe it will help.
 
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Voodoo Rufus

Powder Junkie Moderator
Joined
Sep 20, 2001
Location
Bakersfield, CA
The difference between the 1220/4080 and the 8xx series codecs is significant. Sometimes they'll go with the ESS Sabre to do DAC and headphone amp duty, which is overkill on a motherboard but it's something I like and look for. Asus' SupremeFX is just a rebranded 1220 as far as I can tell.

Maybe most people are going for external USB DACs now and it's not as important. I can see why they drop the full surround analog outputs (I did surround in the past but not in recent years), but it's not like it costs much to keep the ports. I just don't like tech going backwards in capability and performance. Good onboard audio made internal sound cards basically unnecessary. Now one has to be picky about the onboard audio if it's a priority.

1665509057710.png


1665509275146.png
 

EarthDog

Gulper Nozzle Co-Owner
Joined
Dec 15, 2008
Location
Buckeyes!
Typically you see ALC897 on the inexpensive boards/not enthusiast chipsets. I don't recall seeing the 887...at least any time recently. There's also multiple versions of the 1220, the -VB being one of them. Not sure offhand what the differences are, likely features but specs (SN/R, etc) (IIRC), are the same otherwise. The 4080/4082(?) have improved specs over the 1220 variants... whether anyone will notice/need that, I don't know.

SupremeFX is absolutely a rebrand of Realtek ALCxxxx codecs. :thup:
 

Woomack

Benching Team Leader
Joined
Jan 2, 2005
ASUS is not even rebranding it, they say it's 1220 or in the new series 4080. Only in the lowest series, it's HD Audio right now.
Now when I browsed what I was actually using (excluding reviews), it looks like I almost only had mobos with ALC1220 for the past 4+ years. The same in everything since Z97, even Supermicro mobos. This explains why I have heard no significant difference between all of them. Gigabyte Z690 Master also had ALC1220, but with ESS ES9118 DAC, the sound was simply better. The sound was better on that Gigabyte than on the Strix Z690-I Gaming with ALC4080 I have now on my gaming PC.

@Voodoo Rufus, what are you searching for anyway? You said low motherboard, but how low and you want something small like ITX or just a regular ATX? Most lower B650 mobos are not even listed yet.
 

SF101

The Printer Guru
Joined
Feb 9, 2002
I haven't heard any significant difference between audio in 2-3 years, but I wasn't really following what codec has which motherboard. I guess it's because of the PCB design and additional components, like divided audio section with premium caps and other things like that. The first that actually made a difference in a long time was Gigabyte Z690 Master, but I heard that the X670E Master is already worse.
Weird is that all manufacturers use only Realtek HD Audio in specs for everything cheaper. ASUS specs suggest it's ALC1220, but who knows and barely anyone will review these lower mobos. Strix series and everything higher has the codec listed, but their price is ridiculous.
You can also see that ASUS is using external audio for some of their high series ITX mobos and most have only 2 jacks with optical output as an option. I guess that everything is going step back, but a significant part of the market won't see that or won't care.



I made #1 on 7950X+RX6800XT in the first run and top 99% score in RX6800XT category with everything at auto :)

I guess you have a great chip. I was thinking that mine is below average but in some random reviews, all are complaining that can't make more than 5.2-5.3GHz on all cores when I can set 5.4GHz+. Still Johan has 5.5GHz. Typically CCD0 is better than CCD1 so maybe try 5.70-5.75GHz on CCD0 and 5.65GHz on CCD1.

I find lowering voltages a bit tricky. You can't lower it too much as higher clocks (above some point) need higher voltages. You can't lower it with some other boost options enabled or it loses stability.
For 3DMarks you can play with PBO override options and +200MHz boost. 3D tests usually use single cores so the higher boost should help. Ryzen Master curve profile should give you higher all core clock and single core boost. It's not perfect as I see, but if you haven't tried it then maybe it will help.
This is all core lol but its only 6 core CPU , I guess I can try single core increases past this point.
 

Voodoo Rufus

Powder Junkie Moderator
Joined
Sep 20, 2001
Location
Bakersfield, CA
@Woomack I'm toying with upgrading my Ncase M1 rig from the 4770K to something more modern for fun. It works fine so I'm in no hurry.

But for an ITX machine I would look for a B650E with all Gen5, or at least one Gen5 M.2 for the boot drive. Right now the Asrock PG B650E is the only one that fits the bill. The MSI B650 Edge came close, but it's keeping Gen4 for PCIE and M.2.
 

Woomack

Benching Team Leader
Joined
Jan 2, 2005
@Woomack I'm toying with upgrading my Ncase M1 rig from the 4770K to something more modern for fun. It works fine so I'm in no hurry.

But for an ITX machine I would look for a B650E with all Gen5, or at least one Gen5 M.2 for the boot drive. Right now the Asrock PG B650E is the only one that fits the bill. The MSI B650 Edge came close, but it's keeping Gen4 for PCIE and M.2.

Soon will be Z790 and mobos are already listed. It seems like more fun just because even something like MSI Z790 Edge is specified to support DDR5-7800+. I find new AMD highly limited. You can OC CPU by maybe 200MHz, you can OC RAM up to 6400 and nothing more (when soon in stores will be 7200+ kits). The performance in multithreading is great, but after one weekend I feel like I maxed-out all available options.
From AMD/ITX mobos, Strix B650E-I looks good too. I can't see it available in any store, but it will probably cost more than ASRock.