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AMD Spider and Dragon Platform...

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EarthDog

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This thread was spawned from a discussion in another thread but I didnt want to completely hijack it so I started this one. Here goes!

It was my contention (and many articles/reviews I recall reading) that the Spider/Dragon platform was simply just a name given to chipset X, using Cpu X, and gpu X and above. Thats it. Just a name. You dont get any performance gains from using said equipment, its just a marketing thing.

Others state there are performance gains to be had by using this setup vs non.
actually no. I'll have to dig my notes out about the Dragon and Spider platform, but there is specific code designed to utilize each of the the three main components to the best of their degree in certain situations.

Wait to see what Icebob pulls out with the TWKR and Crossfire III. This will show the ultimate power of the Dragon platform and the AMD lineup :D


So lets see the evidence! What I would like to see are some synthetics like 06 and vantage where the CPU score is as closely matched as possible. For example, a 5870 on a dragon platform at 3.8GHz vs a 5870 on a Q9550, i7, or i5 at w/e clockspeed would give similar CPU scores in the synthetic tests. Once that is matched, then one can run Crysis or other 'game' benches and see if the systems perform the same. Of course same GPU clock speeds. Also what 'situations' specifically shows a better performance?


Here is AMD's blurb from their site about it:

The AMD platform technology codename "Dragon" is a superior performing desktop platform based on its performance, visual experience, and energy efficiency. The AMD Phenom™ II processor, the ATI Radeon™ HD 4870 graphics card and the AMD 790GX chipset delivers screaming computing power for gaming with an efficient design and an unbeatable HD experience for the money.¹ Get ready for the PC platform that delivers the power to play it all.

Now personally, if there was specific code to allow better performance I would have to imagine it would be listed somewhere yes? I cant find it. To me its just their premium parts at the time. The performance is greater than Ph I or an older chipset b/c of just that, the chip opr chipset. THere, to me, isnt magic code that gets turned on when, 'the power of 3' come together.
 
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nzaneb

Senior Member
Joined
Nov 3, 2008
To me its just their premium parts at the time. The performance is greater than Ph I or an older chipset b/c of just that, the chip opr chipset.

That is the answer.

Just to reiterate what I said in the other thread. The 5XXX series GPU's don't have their special platform name, yet.

Spider Platform: "The AMD Spider platform consists of enthusiast level products from AMD, including AMD Phenom X4 9000 series processors, ATI Radeon HD 3800 series GPUs, and the AMD 7 series chipset[1][2]."

Dragon Platform: "A system conforming to the platform specification is said to be a combination of a Phenom II X4 processor and a mainboard using a chipset from the AMD 700 chipset series, along with a graphics card of the ATI Radeon HD 4800 series."

You MUST adhere to their specific grouping, or people will start to say "Oh, that's not a true spider/dragon platform" For instance, at one time I was running Phenom I, 4850, 780GX chipset... I tried to call this a spider platform and got chastised, because I was using a 4XXX series GPU. It also didn't qualify as a Dragon platform as I had a Phenom I processor in. So I then switched over to a 720BE, 4850's, and a 790FX... supposedly a TRUE Dragon platform.

There will be no way, other than direct verbage from AMD/ATi, that you will convince me that there are benefits to this platform. If you can ONLY run it with a SPECIFIC set of components, you can never get an accurate gauge as to whether any gain is merely hardware related. Of course my system ran better with a Phenom II and a 790FX, I wouldn't have expected it not too. But they limit you, to one specific group of parts, so you can never prove this wrong.

Here's the test... Run a Dragon platform: 965, 4870, 790FX... then swap out the 4870 for the 5870... it should run worse right, because it's not the "mystical power of three"...
So that's obviously a rhetorical question. Of course it will run better with the 5870, as it's newer hardware.
 
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EarthDog

EarthDog

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There will be no way, other than direct verbage from AMD/ATi, that you will convince me that there are benefits to this platform. If you can ONLY run it with a SPECIFIC set of components, you can never get an accurate gauge as to whether any gain is merely hardware related. Of course my system ran better with a Phenom II and a 790FX, I wouldn't have expected it not too. But they limit you, to one specific group of parts, so you can never prove this wrong.
Yeah the only way I could think of doing it was with matching CPU scores on synthetics to get a true clock for clock performance on the CPU (thus eliminating that as a variable) and letting the chipset and GPU do their thing.
 

Dolk

I once overclocked an Intel
Joined
Mar 3, 2008
If I had an intel board and CPU, I would love to do the benches. I do have some old benches from Sno when I was first writing up my guide. After my morning classes I'll look through them and see if its a dragon platform or not.
 

Dapman02

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Jan 17, 2008
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Overland Park, KS
imho I don't think we will see much of a performance gain from the "platforms". I also don't think that there are too many variables here to make any results pretty much null.
 

Porvalsh

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Aug 14, 2009
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I think like you guys have pointed out, that its too difficult to produce similar benchmarks to test out the validity of the "Dragon Platform". If I had an intel platform to put my 4890 into, I could produce some benchies but I imagine it would be really hard to make sure you're comparing apples to apples because of the different architecture of the components.

If I were going to compare an i5 platform to my current Dragon, I'd have to run CPU benches to match the capability of the i5 with my 955. Then I could move on a run the 3d benchies, knowing that at least the CPU score would not be tweaking the results. How in the world would all the variables be able to be accounted for though?

It seems unrealistic to me.
 

ratbuddy

Member
Joined
Aug 24, 2007
Dragons and spiders are just AMD's marketing terms for 'whatever we happen to be selling at the moment.' I thought everyone knew that.

It's not like there's any particular feature that suddenly becomes enabled when you're running 'all Dragon' that isn't there when you aren't.
 
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EarthDog

EarthDog

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@ Rat - Thats the contention that Dolk and Icebob are trying to make...
 

ratbuddy

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Aug 24, 2007
@ Rat - Thats the contention that Dolk and Icebob are trying to make...

It's not a contention at all. The contention would be that Dragon actually does anything at all, and the burden of proving it should fall to that camp.
 

Dolk

I once overclocked an Intel
Joined
Mar 3, 2008
AMD does have a claim out there that their is a gain when using the Dragon or Spider platform. But now that I recall it could be through the use of Fusion. In the middle of my HW. Look for my post on the third day, there at the dawn. Prey that you patience does not fail you.
 
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EarthDog

EarthDog

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It's not a contention at all. The contention would be that Dragon actually does anything at all, and the burden of proving it should fall to that camp.
Semantics. They are CONTENDING that it does something. :santa:

Definitions of contention on the Web:

a point asserted as part of an argument
 

nzaneb

Senior Member
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Nov 3, 2008
But now that I recall it could be through the use of Fusion.

IIRC the Fusion Utility does nothing more than kill unneeded processes, and engage auto-tuned overclocked profiles (provided by CCC and AOD)... sure there will be a gain over the stock performance of the components, but nothing that you or I couldn't achieve in about 5 minutes of overclocking and tweaking.

Unless you're talking about REAL AMD/ATi Fusion, which isn't available yet ;)
 

Mjolnir

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I'm not entirely sure why this thread was created in the first place.. Like someone said, I thought it was known 'Dragon' and 'Spider' were just marketing gimmicks? No offence to you Earthdog, but you seem to have something against AMD/ATI? Lol. May I ask why?

Back to the topic: Yeah AFAIK its all just a 'thing' to help promote their systems.. Though I suppose an actual proper comparison would be interesting... Though I'd like to find a system that'd be exactly comparable to the 'dragon' platform or whatever..
 

nzaneb

Senior Member
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Nov 3, 2008
I'm not entirely sure why this thread was created in the first place.. Like someone said, I thought it was known 'Dragon' and 'Spider' were just marketing gimmicks?

Originally Posted by Dolk
actually no. I'll have to dig my notes out about the Dragon and Spider platform, but there is specific code designed to utilize each of the the three main components to the best of their degree in certain situations.
 
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EarthDog

EarthDog

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I'm not entirely sure why this thread was created in the first place.. Like someone said, I thought it was known 'Dragon' and 'Spider' were just marketing gimmicks? No offence to you Earthdog, but you seem to have something against AMD/ATI? Lol. May I ask why?
Nzaneb pretty much hit it.

I have absolutely NOTHING against AMD/ATI at all. In fact I feel I go out of my way to ensure that 'fanboy' will never be stamped on my head so Im not sure where you even got that idea!

The point of this thread (which is clearly defined in the first post) was to confirm/debunk the assertion that there is somehow better performance with a spider/dragon platform. Which from everything I have read, its marketing only. We are just waiting for some links or some empirical testing to be done. But its marketing only. Really.
 

icebob

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First I never said that it would give better performance they only thing I said is that I have the components to put it to test which I will be more than happy to do sometimes this week-end cause tonight I will be playing with my EVGA P55 Classified and my Xeon x3470!
 
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EarthDog

EarthDog

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My bad Ice. I thought with the "have you tried it" comment meant a little more than it did. Like you inferred that if I tried it I would see. Otherwise, Im not certain you thought otherwise about the subject either right?

Just make sure CPU scores match in 06/Vantage then let her rip with the same GPU and see what the difference is. Thats as close to proper testing as we are going to be able to get I believe.

PS - I edited the first post and removed both names from it. :)
 
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Firestrider

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You only get CCC, AOD, and the Fusion utility by having AMD hardware since there is checks in the software. I wouldn't want to use those software tools anyway since I'd rather rely on the hardware and OS for power management, process/thread management, and performance management (Turbo Boost)

I doubt there is better communication and more efficiency between the chipset, CPU, and GPU (in Crossfire, or doing Stream workloads) just by having an AMD platform.