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Anyone else tired of Radeon OEM's being called Retail?

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Tracert

Member
Joined
Jan 30, 2002
Location
Southbridge, MA.
I was just trying to find a Retail version of the Radeon 7500 card, just to see what price I can get a "built by ATI" 7500. So I go to pricewatch and start looking. Every "Retail" card there is some OEM "retail". Not the ATI Retail. This was very frustrating!

I think besides the built by or powered by thing, ATI should TM a difference in naming conventions for their products. Like TruRadeon 8500, or TruRadeon 7500, which they would not let the OEM manufacture use. That way if you saw a Radeon 8500 "Retail" you would know right away it wasn't from ATI. But if it said TruRadeon 8500 "Retail" then you know it's the sure thing.

I think that would be of great help to the whole OEM vrs Built by ATI issue.

The real reason for posting was wondering if anyone know's where I can get a real "Built by ATI" Retail 7500 card for a decent price?

That question being asked, don't hesitate to supply your 2 cents on the OEM vrs ATI issue.

;)
 

Maximus Nickus

Senior Shaman
Joined
Oct 4, 2001
Location
Milton Keynes, U.K.
I've never seen an OEM being sold as a Retail or even refered to as one.
They may have built by Ati on but a RETAIL COMES in the VERY distinctive RED packaging.

Its easy to tell the difference.

Trust me!!!
 

AKDUDE

Senior Member
Joined
Feb 13, 2001
There are plenty of OEM spec Radeon 8500s listed on Price Watch that are called "retail", and come in pretty boxes, usually red, which look close to "built by ATI" boxes.

I just wish they would brown box the 250mhz and lower chips, and sell the others as retail, or start calling ALL of the 250mhz 8500s LEs or SOMETHING, because it seems only about half the online vendors are doing so.
AKDUDE
 

Silversinksam

Moderator/ Silver Paste Taster©
Joined
Aug 8, 2001
Location
Sunshine State, USA
Bottom line is when buying a ATI card online you should call the vendor and Specificly ask:

DOES THE BOX SAY BUILT BY ATI


I have contacted a few vendors out of disgust, and several of them have changed thier Item description as some are clueless and dont know what the heck they are selling.
 
OP
Tracert

Tracert

Member
Joined
Jan 30, 2002
Location
Southbridge, MA.
You serious?

Maximus Nickus said:
I've never seen an OEM being sold as a Retail or even refered to as one.
They may have built by Ati on but a RETAIL COMES in the VERY distinctive RED packaging.

Its easy to tell the difference.

Trust me!!!

Im not sure if your jokeing or not, but I think you are... right? Just in case (and I may be making myself look dumb here) you are serious, go to www.pricewatch.com and look at radeon 7500's or 8500's. Once there then start going through the list, starting at the lowest price and work your way up, and click on any website that describes their card as "retail". Once your in the actuall website you will see that the card is not made by ATI but by another manufactur and that it happens to be that other manufactur's Retail card.

So if your serious about the "I've never seen an OEM being sold as a Retail or even refered to as one" then that should help you understand what I am talking about.

Now, if you were joking and I am saying all this because I'm an idot and can't tell when someone is pulling my leg or not, usually a LOL or JKing type thing will help the slower ones like myself catch on a lil quicker.

;)
 
OP
Tracert

Tracert

Member
Joined
Jan 30, 2002
Location
Southbridge, MA.
Silversinksam said:
Bottom line is when buying a ATI card online you should call the vendor and Specificly ask:

DOES THE BOX SAY BUILT BY ATI


I have contacted a few vendors out of disgust, and several of them have changed thier Item description as some are clueless and dont know what the heck they are selling.

That's just the frustrating part. A service like Pricewatch (which we all know there are more out there) is supposed to make your comparative shopping easier. However when it comes to the Radeon OEM vrs "Built by ATI", they are all thrown into the same mix. This forces you to have to either do some extensive surfing trying to figure out,

OK is this thing "built by" or "powered by" then after about 1.5 minutes of searching, yup... Powered by, dag nab it!

So then you go back and check the next one.

Here I am looking and all it says is Radeon 7500. No built by or powered by, just retail Radeon 7500 with no more info. I am going to have to assume that they have an OEM and move on.

Either that or start calling every vender that post as a retail and asking the specific question. And even then your not sure if the guy your talking to has any idea of what he is talking about.

"Oh yeah its a retail card. ATI one even." uh, huh. Sure it is mister.

So what ends up happining is you find a decent company like newegg and instead of only having to pay $75.00 like everyone posted it would be, you end up paying $120.00 just to make sure it's retail and that throws off your whole buying decision because now you need to go back to the drawing board and rethink the decision.

Sheesh, Kind of a pain.

I guess the quick and dirty fix would be if all the pricewatch type companies forced venders to specify if it is "built by" or "powered by". That would at least cut down on some of the issues.

Sure Silversinksam would still have to call a couple of Venders because they put the wrong wording in there but it would cut down on it.

My original point was that I think ATI could have stopped a lot of this by going with the TruRadeon or Radeon+ or something like that.

ATI may not be able to force the names of what other companies call their product, but they could name theres something a little extra and then force other companies not to use that name via TM.

See? What else do you guys think?
 

AKDUDE

Senior Member
Joined
Feb 13, 2001
Yea, sounds good to me.

My issue is, I just want to KNOW THE ACTUAL specs of the card before I buy. I could care what the box looks like, or who made the card honestly.

I just wish they stated what clock speed the core is at, how fast the memory is, and what speed the memory chips are rated at, I.E. 3.3 ns or whatever. At least that way, no matter what funky name they put on the card, you know what it really is.

Seems to me that most of the LE cards are easy to get up to the regular retail speed, as in you just do the "pencil trick" to increase the voltage to the ram to retail specs. However, since most venders don't spec the ram speed, you have no idea what your getting unless someone in a forum has the same card, or ifyou can get the vender to crack open a box for you to look. Good luck with that of course.
AKDUDE
 

Maximus Nickus

Senior Shaman
Joined
Oct 4, 2001
Location
Milton Keynes, U.K.
I should have been more specific.

In the UK pricewatch doesn't really help (US) so I never visit it, I was refering to my experience of seeing 8500's/7500's. I have never seen any OEM's with a Built By Ati logo on them, and in the same red packaging with the skull thingy.

Like Silversinksam said if it doesn't have that Built by Ati then its an OEM.

I should have been more specific but well I wasn't!! Hope this clears up my confusion and chaos!!!:D :D :D
 

AKDUDE

Senior Member
Joined
Feb 13, 2001
I have issue with everyone calling a ATI card thats not made by ATI being called a OEM.

nVidea dosn't make any cards. By this standard all Geforces except the reference cards would be called OEM.

Generally, OEM means video card in static bag, with or without box or driver CD.

Retail means, Pretty box, box inside of box, card, cables, adapters and such if needed, a driver CD, maybe a game or 2, and some type of manuel. Not to mention a longer warrenty from the company selling the product, usually anyway.

To me, just because a 8500 is speced at 250mhz, dosn't mean its a OEM, its just a 8500 LE.

At least with nVidea, the naming system helps. When you order a Ti 200 you know its clocked at a certian speed core/mem, as well as the Ti500 or whatever.

I think ATI should make all of the vendors call the 250mhz 8500s, LE's, whether they are retail or not.
AKDUDE
 

Silversinksam

Moderator/ Silver Paste Taster©
Joined
Aug 8, 2001
Location
Sunshine State, USA
AKDude,

What will they call the 230/230 4ns OEM version?

Wait, Dont answer that ;)


When I was doing research on the 8500 dilema, I spoke to several Vendors and many of them changed thier Item description after I spoke with them/Argued politely.

My honest advise is to just buy a retail and call the vendor like I said above and ask them Does the box say Build by ATI

Several of the OEM manufacturer (21+oem manufacturers at present) Have boxes that are almost identicle to the ATI retail box, this was a marketing move to further try to dupe the consumer.

:(
 

MadMan007

Magical Leopluridon Senior
Joined
Nov 28, 2001
Location
in a magical field
[q]What will they call the 230/230 4ns OEM version?[/q]

They are called 8500LELE I believe. Sounds funny when you say it out loud too :)

As for paying a higher price from, say, newegg, you are probably paying the equivalent to what any other reputable vendor would charge for the same item. It's not like newegg has the habit of ripping people off.

This is the problem: now that ATI chips are being put on cards by so many other manufacturers and not limited in scale like the old Radeon LE, there needs to be a true standard.

The solution has already been proposed here: ATI just needs to insist on a naming convention for the companies they sell the chips to, like the nVidia GF3 series. For now, call the vendors, and get them to email you the same information as well so you have 'proof.' If they are rude or refuse to give you the info, they don't deserve your business.

Don't worry, ATI is new at this. They will surely solve this problem the next go around with the R250. Then ti will be: buy an ATI brand card and it will be made by ATI in Canada, etc. Buy a Hercules, MSI, ASUS, etc brand Radeon and you know what you'll be getting too.
 
OP
Tracert

Tracert

Member
Joined
Jan 30, 2002
Location
Southbridge, MA.
MadMan007 said:
[q]What will they call the 230/230 4ns OEM version?[/q]

As for paying a higher price from, say, newegg, you are probably paying the equivalent to what any other reputable vendor would charge for the same item. It's not like newegg has the habit of ripping people off.

This is the problem: now that ATI chips are being put on cards by so many other manufacturers and not limited in scale like the old Radeon LE, there needs to be a true standard.

The solution has already been proposed here: ATI just needs to insist on a naming convention for the companies they sell the chips to, like the nVidia GF3 series. For now, call the vendors, and get them to email you the same information as well so you have 'proof.' If they are rude or refuse to give you the info, they don't deserve your business.

Don't worry, ATI is new at this. They will surely solve this problem the next go around with the R250. Then ti will be: buy an ATI brand card and it will be made by ATI in Canada, etc. Buy a Hercules, MSI, ASUS, etc brand Radeon and you know what you'll be getting too.

I hope they (ATI) do. Do you think they know / understand the frustration we feel with this issue? I would think it would be kind of important to them. Of course Venders wont want this because it would make it easier for us to comparson shop apples to apples, which I believe would help drive down prices of retail cards.

Right now no one knows what each company is selling ATI's card or the other Manufacture's so its hard to judge who has the best price for which card. This takes pressure off the venders to try to "out do" the others because no one knows (with out extensive research and calling venders, very time consuming).

Hmmm, after that thought, maybe ATI dosent want to clear this up.

Also I didn't mean to say Newegg is ripping people off. In fact they are my favorite online reseller right now. I just ment when your trying to make decisions based of preliminary information (pricewatch, cnet, etc. says I can get a retail card for $75.00 so that would leave me with x amount of money for some more RAM, HDD or what ever) and you finally come up with a scenario to best spend your money. When it comes time to purchase, low and behold that card you thought you could get or was told could be gotten for about $75.00 is actually not the card you thought and in order to get the actuall one you want will cost you more like $120.00 from any halfway decent vender.

Then that takes $45.00 away from the rest of the machine, and who knows. Now that the card is more like 120.00 maybe you need to rethink the situation.

All in all just a large waste of time and energy because marketing is trying to dupe people who may not have as much knowledge as us.

I obviously will call to verify "Built by" or RAM Core speed, but I really don't feel like we should have to do this. We have all come to a conclusion that there is a better way (like AKDUDE said, Nvidia is doing it now). I wonder if there is a way for us to put some pressure or sway ATI to do it?

They seem to be (finally) listening to us scream about driver updates and have made great strides here. I just hope they can do the same in the mystery marketing that surrounds their products.

One think I can say, at least ATI caused this by (what I hope) accident. Where as Nvidia with the whole Gforce 4 MX issue did that themselves. Still, for us who know, it is easy enough to tell if something is an MX or a real GF4. Nameing convention still works correctly even when it's ment to misslead.
 

TUK101

Member
Joined
Jun 27, 2001
Location
Wash. State
The difference between oem. Radeon cards, and retail Radeon cards used to be simple. An oem Radeon card is still built by ATI, it just didnt pass all the tests at default speeds so they sold it to oem websites and discount stores clocked down to a lower speed. Now here are cheaper manufactures making ATI cards and calling them retail even when the card isnt up to ATI's own specs. But they are still passing them off as retail cards and not neccessarily giving any sort of disclaimer. I know what I look for when trying to differentiate between a good ATI card, is by reading the add and seeing if it is made by anybody else. Cause if it is, then I dont want it. My oem card has the "built by ATI" emblem stamped on the card, and it just came under clocked, but with Radeon Tweaker, I am able to clock it higher than standard Radeon spec with very little problems. Generally when it is a built by ATI card, they have that right in the add, cause they want you to see that so that you know. If it isnt built by ATI, then they are going to leave that out so that you may overlook the fact and buy it anyhow unknowingly thinking that you are getting a true Radeon.
 
OP
Tracert

Tracert

Member
Joined
Jan 30, 2002
Location
Southbridge, MA.
But of course I am always looking for the best possible deal. And there always is that "chance" be it ever so small that this vender doesn't know that he or she should put that little "built by" part on his add because he is just as confused by the marketing as the others. So then that forces me to spend that extra time, hunting and tracking,

Here I am ---> "ummmm, wait, wait.... I think I see a B in the front of the sticker on that picture... dang it! Why don't they take high res pic's of these PCB's! Hmmmmm, now it looks like a P" LOL

I guess it would be worth the extra $30.00 not to go through this process.

Still if ATI would have just differentiated their products by the naming schemes discussed above, oh how much easier things would be.
 

Silversinksam

Moderator/ Silver Paste Taster©
Joined
Aug 8, 2001
Location
Sunshine State, USA
TUK101 said:
The difference between oem. Radeon cards, and retail Radeon cards used to be simple. An oem Radeon card is still built by ATI, it just didnt pass all the tests at default speeds so they sold it to oem websites and discount stores clocked down to a lower speed.


Thats only partially correct,as there are 20+ OEM manufacturers building the cards.

ATI sold a limited number of ATI-branded boards with the RADEON 8500-based 250/250 chip to its add-in board (AIB) manufacturer partners to help hasten their entry into the worldwide PC marketplace with our latest technologies. This level of support will soon revert to our planned program of providing only RADEON 8500-based chips, which AIBs will then add to their own boards and market to their various customers around the world, including retailers and system integrators. The RADEON 8500-based product sold to AIBs will not be sold by ATI into retail. It will be sold by original equipment manufacturers (OEMs), original design manufacturers (ODMs) and AIBs into retail as part of their overall technology offerings. We will be making a formal announcement in this regard in the next few days. By the way, in second reference to them in my earlier correspondence with you, I have referred to OEMs, ODMs and AIBs as third parties.
http://www.tech-report.com/onearticle.x/3044



Here is a partial list of OEM manufacturers


Heres the partner product FAQ



Some of the OEM boards made by Gigabyte for example, initally were planned to be better than the MADE BY ATI models.



PS I have an OEM 8500 that will outperform most Retail Made By ATI models.....I have not altered the bios nor the voltage as I use Powerstrip to raise my core and memory.

If I had an inferior chipset, how would you explain that ;)
 
OP
Tracert

Tracert

Member
Joined
Jan 30, 2002
Location
Southbridge, MA.
Silversinksam said:


Some of the OEM boards made by Gigabyte for example, initally were planned to be better than the MADE BY ATI models.

Do you know the reasoning behind their decision not to go with the 3.3 ns memory? Too hard to come by, or too much cost? I was a little bummed by this, although even with the same specs the Hardware monitoring this card will have along with the cooling should make it still better then the ATI retail.
 

Silversinksam

Moderator/ Silver Paste Taster©
Joined
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Location
Sunshine State, USA
Tracert said:


Do you know the reasoning behind their decision not to go with the 3.3 ns memory? Too hard to come by, or too much cost? I was a little bummed by this, although even with the same specs the Hardware monitoring this card will have along with the cooling should make it still better then the ATI retail.


This is my personal opinion but I think ATI intervened and told them they cant use faster memory than thier Made By Ati version.... Its interesting as some Made by Ati 8500's are using 3.3ns memory.

As the ddr prices increase, costs to manufacture the boards increase, but I honestly believe ATI intervened.
 
OP
Tracert

Tracert

Member
Joined
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Location
Southbridge, MA.
Silversinksam said:



This is my personal opinion but I think ATI intervened and told them they cant use faster memory than thier Made By Ati version.... Its interesting as some Made by Ati 8500's are using 3.3ns memory.

As the ddr prices increase, costs to manufacture the boards increase, but I honestly believe ATI intervened.

Sure, they intervened (I know this is only your opinion but still a good possibility) on the better cards then theirs, but they won't fix the current naming issues.

I guess it really only matters when it effects a bottom line.
 

brit4a

Registered
Joined
Feb 22, 2002
Location
Houston
Ok here is a new twist and It happened to me. Paid 299.00 for a retail 8500 at Frys and did'nt notice it had a sticker on it that said it had been opened. Seems somebody bought an Oem and then bought a retail then return the oem in the box neat trick huh so I have an Oem !!!!!!!!!!