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Are the new Ryzen supposed to by any better in overclock? Counterfeit CPU?

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OP
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DestroyFX

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Joined
Oct 5, 2017
check the rating, some of the motherboard VRM can not handle 2700x, iT pull a lot of power, More than a 1700!!!! And the setting for XFR2.0 maybe different for that MB.

For BIOS 470 PPT 200000 , TDC 11400 , FDC 16800.

I put back the Vcore and coef to auto and used the PPT/TDC/FDC settings you posted.
It's a little better, going around 4200Mhz ish with almost no load, 41xx most of the time and go down to 3999-4015 when I floor it.

When the comp have a light load it seam to be when the CPU get the more vcore, like 1.44V while floored it go down to about 1.42-1.43 and Idle 1.41.

So there is no point of overclocking it as I was setting 4.15Ghz at 1.41V, the extra vcore that XFR provide might help to ensure it stay stable and if I set 1.44V required for full load at 4.2 then my el cheapo VRM get a lil toasty.

Have to get that : http://www.frozencpu.com/products/2...versal_MOSFET_Water_Block_-_Copper_12000.html to fix the mosfet issue
 

LRG5

Member
Joined
May 23, 2014
Location
Miami, FL.
DestroyFX just get a motherboard, you will be better in the long run. Asus or Asrock both very good x470 Mortherboards ( Ryzen2 )
 

Woomack

Benching Team Leader
Joined
Jan 2, 2005
I don't know why people are spreading all that info about too weak power section on cheaper motherboards. 4+2 or 6 power phases are enough to handle overclocked Ryzen. Not to mention that default voltage for which motherboards are designed is 1.45V ( max boost voltage ) and you are not using more.
VRM temp is safe even up to 100°C. Max is about 120-125°C, not sure what is installed on the B350-Prime Plus.

New motherboard may help ... or won't help at all. Not all processors are overclocking good so nothing is guaranteed.
For sure don't waste money on VRM cooling. Better idea is to get some other motherboard, but again, I see no issues with Asus B350-Prime. I'm not sure how BIOS works etc but looking at the specs, it should be more than enough.
 
OP
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DestroyFX

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Oct 5, 2017
I don't know why people are spreading all that info about too weak power section on cheaper motherboards. 4+2 or 6 power phases are enough to handle overclocked Ryzen. Not to mention that default voltage for which motherboards are designed is 1.45V ( max boost voltage ) and you are not using more.
VRM temp is safe even up to 100°C. Max is about 120-125°C, not sure what is installed on the B350-Prime Plus.

New motherboard may help ... or won't help at all. Not all processors are overclocking good so nothing is guaranteed.
For sure don't waste money on VRM cooling. Better idea is to get some other motherboard, but again, I see no issues with Asus B350-Prime. I'm not sure how BIOS works etc but looking at the specs, it should be more than enough.

Yop, Biggest difference is SLI support, Quantity of USB support and better VRM for X370/X470 but B350 boards VRM are still fine while properly cooled (mine are not, right now and some brands are better than others for these... They ALL lack FINs on there VRM heatsink). Plus more expensive board usually have also more BIOS option (with is also not a problem on my cheap board as it have all I do need and the stuff I was needing that was missing, I just put it back because it's all in the EFI image with "IF FALSE" that need to be switched for IF TRUE to un-hide them).

I know that my Ryzen will throttle when I hit the Max VRM temps, I did hit it a couple of times. But the B350-Prime Plus don't have a software exposed thermal probe for the VRM.

Finally if my Ryzen2 require 1.45V for 4.2Ghz, it's not my board fault and it's getting to the limit you want to push in a Ryzen chip for 24/24/7/7 usage. Changing the board will not let my Ryzen not crash if I put 1.42V instead of 1.45V, it will still require 1.45V and so it will still be the safe limit. The only difference is that I will pay an extra 150-200$ for a board just for better VRM while I can just stick a generic 40$ VRM waterblock (plus 2 fittings) on my current one as I already have all the watercooling gear in there anyway.
 

bassnut

Premium Member
Joined
Aug 16, 2009
Not so sure of that ...... I have both the ASROCK Tiachi X370 and the Asus Tuff B350 GAMING both boards will OC my 1700X to 4GHZ Prime stable. The surprising thing was the ASUS did it with less CPU voltage and nothing else in the system has changed. I have been using the ASUS board since.
 

UltraTaco

Member
Joined
Oct 28, 2017
I like Asus too! On my other cpu(old), all I had to change was vcore and encore! While other men needed to work itger voltages and all other stuff
 

Woomack

Benching Team Leader
Joined
Jan 2, 2005
If VRM hit max temps then motherboard is faulty and you can make RMA. However, I haven't seen any Ryzen motherboard throttling because of too high VRM temps ... and I haven't seen any Ryzen motherboard with overheating VRM. There was one 4 phase Gigabyte B350 which was reaching ~100°C after longer full load ( no idea if it's true or sensor read ) but was still stable at 1.45V.
What I see is that people spread theories around the web and others repeat that. The same was with X299 VRM and some other things in last months.
I'm not saying it's not the case as I don't see how the motherboard is acting but most users simply don't set higher power limits in BIOS or some other options related to that.
 

Woomack

Benching Team Leader
Joined
Jan 2, 2005
It proves nothing. I can show you as good OC on ITX boards as on full ATX. Quick comparison, you can OC processor on the X370 Taichi as high as on the X370 Gaming ITX/ac ... and B350 Gaming ITX has exactly the same PCB and power delivery. All is matter of design, not motherboard size or used chipset. Typical power design can handle more than people expect. What is funny, server motherboards have often worse power delivery than cheap desktop boards but somehow no one says anything about that.
Typical B350 motherboards are not entry-level. B350 is already designed for gamers and overclocking. Entry-level is something really cheap on B320 chipset that can't even OC. If something has 4 or 6 power phases then usually still can handle 200W+ constant load what is double the TDP of higher Ryzen processors. If motherboard has no design flaws and good BIOS then you can overclock without issues on everything.
Since I mentioned BIOS. A lot of users have problems with power limits in BIOS or lack of some options and later they say that VRM are too weak. Actually I've seen that in couple of reviews. Even larger and for some reason respectable websites are posting reviews without proper tests.
 
OP
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DestroyFX

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Oct 5, 2017
If VRM hit max temps then motherboard is faulty and you can make RMA. However, I haven't seen any Ryzen motherboard throttling because of too high VRM temps ... and I haven't seen any Ryzen motherboard with overheating VRM. There was one 4 phase Gigabyte B350 which was reaching ~100°C after longer full load ( no idea if it's true or sensor read ) but was still stable at 1.45V.
What I see is that people spread theories around the web and others repeat that. The same was with X299 VRM and some other things in last months.
I'm not saying it's not the case as I don't see how the motherboard is acting but most users simply don't set higher power limits in BIOS or some other options related to that.

All you have to do is to set > 1.4V on any B350 board that have a 3.9Ghz+ R7 1700, Boot any linux livecd that come with mprime and run mprime with default torture option then wait 15 minutes.
* I did have a Gaming 3 from Gigabyte, I can confirm you that the throttling temp for VRM is 117ºC, because I reached it with mprime many time (and nothing else)
* I did reach throttling VRM temp with my Asus B350-Prime plus too, don't know what temp because there sensors are not exposed to software.
* I did reach throttling temp of some B350 Asrock from a friend too.
In fact, I did reach VRM throttling temperature on ALL board for Ryzen I was able to test OC and stress test on them.

Normal load will not reach these temps but actually real cpu stressing programs will.

Go look at videos from der8auer or buildzoid, they will tell you how you can reach throttling temp on any B350 and most X370 board. Especially on water. Why? Because they did prefer beautiful heatsink design over heatsink will real fins. They mostly fixed that with X470. Some B350 board, from MSI I think, don't even have heatsinks on the VRM.
 

Woomack

Benching Team Leader
Joined
Jan 2, 2005
I'm not here to argue what is throttling and what is not. If you feel you are not satisfied with your motherboard then simply replace it with something else but don't create theories about mass defective motherboards or counterfeit CPUs.

I know that der8auer is good in what he does but his videos are full of marketing. I remember his X299 videos with VRM issues... I couldn't repeat that on any X299 motherboard and I've reviewed at least 10 different motherboards, including 7 power phase ASRock X299E-ITX. Simply CPU was overheating much before VRM could.
I don't have to look at other people's videos. I just test that stuff daily.

I'm not saying there are no issues with all motherboards. I simply had no issues with all motherboards I was testing ( except maybe that Gigabyte Gaming 3 ). I had no chance to test ASUS B350 Pro so I also won't say anything about this board.
There are many other users on OCF which are using motherboards on B350 chipset without issues. Problems were with first motherboards on early BIOS releases. Some were throttling because of BIOS issues but people were still saying it's overheating VRM.

On the other hand, default specification forces throttling because of too high temps, too high current and some more. Throttling because of too high temps starts at max safe temp +offset which is 20°C above that so for some boards it's 70°C+. As long as you keep default settings for power and temps then CPU will always throttle at any OC.
 
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storm-chaser

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Sep 2, 2011
Location
Upstate NY
Woomack is right on point. Typical power design can handle more than you can think. I had a 140W CPU (probably more like 175w in OC configuration) in a 125W max micro ATX board, with a 3+1 power phase running a stable 4.0Ghz overclock for nearly seven years. These are recommendations only. If you know what you are doing, you'd be surprised what kind of potential you can unleash. While this was not a Ryzen CPU, still goes to show you it is possible and sustainable for lengthy periods of time.
 

UltraTaco

Member
Joined
Oct 28, 2017
But if 3+1 is enough, then why would asus for example put 16+2 into p6t(oldie)? Cleaner signal?
 

mackerel

Member
Joined
Mar 7, 2008
But if 3+1 is enough, then why would asus for example put 16+2 into p6t(oldie)? Cleaner signal?

Had to look that up, the Asus web page says it has 8+2. Still, there's "enough" and then there's overkill. Extreme overclockers might actually use some of overkill headroom, but running stock you could argue a lot are over-designed.
 
OP
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DestroyFX

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Oct 5, 2017
But if 3+1 is enough, then why would asus for example put 16+2 into p6t(oldie)? Cleaner signal?

Heat, Stability and capacitors life. For capacitors, more warm they get, less life they get, they can be rated for 85ºC or 105ºC. It's usually go in that direction : Mosfet (Where the heatsink usually go) -> Inductor -> Capacitor. So the heat from the mosfet can radiate to the capacitors, especially on badly cooled design. Current design have poor but beautiful heatsink (On B350) but are still overkill for normal use, even with 1.45V, like Woomack said. You can still reach throttling temperature with a good overclock on most if not any B350 boards with 4+2 Design if correct conditions are meet (Watercooling so you don't have the usual airflow from the CPU heatsink, and burning tools like mprime). The only board I was able to reach high throttling temperature in normal operation (without my specific cpu melting tools), was the Gigabyte Gaming 3. They also fixed there heatsink issue properly with there new X470 board (replaced beautiful heatsink design with fins because heatsink should have as most fins as you can pack there).

But yeah, a 4+2 design is way enough for Ryzen provided it's cooled properly so I would not get a board that don't even have any heatsink there (some MSI don't if I remember). Also, for the Gigabyte Gaming 3, you can find a .STL file so you can 3D print yourself a air duct to link the back fan to the VRM heatsink to fix the problem, If someone need it I can find the link or attach the .stl file.

Edit : For stability, I don't know if it really affect anything like people say. My Asus B350-Prime plus get warm out there but it does seam to change anything. I would also add that more warm are the VRM, more less efficient they get and in theories you can get a runaway effect once you reach a specific temperature+current consumption. VRM temperature related CPU throttle are set to prevent that to append.

Edit2 : having more mosfet will split the load more so they will get more efficient and should produce less heat too (in the same time too much VRM mosfet can neut the efficiency bonus).
 
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LRG5

Member
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May 23, 2014
Location
Miami, FL.
Woomack E-mail "The stilt " and have him to elaborate in more detail numbers. He knows XFR2.0 better than anyone I know and He's the one who wrote the review.
 
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OP
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DestroyFX

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Oct 5, 2017
Follow-up
I'm going to put the 1700 back in and dump the 2700X on the local market.

It's not stable on stock and crash too often to my taste.
When it crash, I usually have to powercycle, using magic keys or the reset button does not work (It crash again after less than an hours)

I think it's the IMC, I do have non certified Hynix TridentZ 3200 16-18-18-18-38.

I currently run them at 3200 14-16-16-16-32 @ 1.47V. It crash the same if I use 16-18-18-18-38. Increasing the mem Voltage push the next crash further away but it still append and I don't like running at that high of a voltage for 24/24/7/7.
My older two 1700 and my temporary 1200 where perfectly fine for 3200 14-16-16-16-32 @ 1.44V

That 2700X at stock run at 1.42V with el turbo and at full load end up under 4Ghz at 1.4V. My last 1700 go 4Ghz at 1.35V stable. Who know, maybe it can do 4.1 or 4.2 with voltage similar to the 2700X, Will see....

And I'm not going to switch ram, it's expensive that stuff. But I might double my ram with the 2700X money, good thing I did not sell the 1700 that AMD sent me from RMA (Linux segfaults problem) because it seam to have the best bin of all the Ryzen that I have ever tested.
I could try to RMA it to get one that work properly (at lease like my older 1700's) but I'm not interested to pay the 230$ usd of Fedex extortion fee again, just not worth it (Mexican Fedex don't care if it's a warranty return, they want there money even if AMD already took care of customs).