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Avoiding the $100 Tualitin screwup

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Melf the Elf

Registered
Joined
Apr 24, 2003
Location
Missouri (New Mexican by choice)
Okay guys and gals, serious decisions require super wild opinions:

It is time for the annual system upgrade! Last year it was the CD Burner (now I can take all the AVIs and demos of video games I didn't actually buy off of the hard drive). This year, it will be the last processor this lame motherboard ever sees. The requirements are that it must work in a socket 370 FCPGA motherboard (see signature) and it has to last at least 3 years. My two finalists are a pin modified PIII-s (512k cache) 1.4 Ghz Tualitin or a pin modified 1.2 Ghz Tualitin Celeron overclocked to 1.6 Ghz (133 Mhz FSB).

The Tualitin 1.4 would be stock out of the box (except for the pin mods), the 1.2/1.6 Tualeron would be lapped and wearing the Vantec Aeroflow heat sink with Arctic Silver 3 heat sink compound.

Please help me avoid a possible $100 (the difference in price between the two setups) screwup. Wanting absolute speed at a fixed 133 FSB, which one would you all chose? Are there any benchmarks comparing these two chips head to head? I have two weeks to decide and one week to make the purchase. Let the advice flow!

Melf
 

Tw00sh

Member
Joined
Dec 24, 2001
Location
Austin, TX
Humm

For the money you are talking about spending, you really should consider getting an AMD XP chip and new board before a PIII chip. ;)

WELCOME TO THE FORUMS
 

jazztrumpet216

Senior @ss
Joined
Sep 23, 2001
Location
Milwaukee, Wisconsin
If you have to buy a new chip for that particular system, then I'd go with the PIII-S. The big cache will help more than a few extra MHz with the Celly, and as with all overclocking, there is no guarantee you'll get the Celly to 133FSB (though it's a good shot with the TB1 stepping).
 
OP
M

Melf the Elf

Registered
Joined
Apr 24, 2003
Location
Missouri (New Mexican by choice)
Changing the motherboard would require new RAM and a new video card, pushing the price over the $225 limit I have to spend on the computer this year.

1.4G PIII-s - $215
1.2g Cel-T, Vantec Aeroflow, AS3, sandpaper - $90

AMD Athlon XP 1700pr - $58
MSI KT7 motherboard - $69
256Meg DDR-333 RAM - $33
ATI Radeon 9500 oem - $139
Total $ 299

This is not including the new operating system I would have to buy, as I fear the Gateway Windows install cd is system specific. Unless I can con the wife into letting me install Win98 :p

Actually, your comment led to this price comparison, which helped immensely. If I could be guarrenteed a 133 FSB overclock on the Cel-T, I might have my mind made up. I would like to know how much faster, if any, 1.4G PIII-s is than a 1.6G Cel-T.

Or should I get a 1.1Ghz Celeron Tualitin for a darn near guarenteed overclock of 1463 Mhz at 133 FSB? Except I know that the 1.4 PIII-s is faster than the 1.43 Cel-T. Well, THAT thought didn't help things much. :-/

Melf
 

jazztrumpet216

Senior @ss
Joined
Sep 23, 2001
Location
Milwaukee, Wisconsin
Melf the Elf said:
Changing the motherboard would require new RAM and a new video card, pushing the price over the $225 limit I have to spend on the computer this year.

1.4G PIII-s - $215
1.2g Cel-T, Vantec Aeroflow, AS3, sandpaper - $90

AMD Athlon XP 1700pr - $58
MSI KT7 motherboard - $69
256Meg DDR-333 RAM - $33
ATI Radeon 9500 oem - $139
Total $ 299

This is not including the new operating system I would have to buy, as I fear the Gateway Windows install cd is system specific. Unless I can con the wife into letting me install Win98 :p

Actually, your comment led to this price comparison, which helped immensely. If I could be guarrenteed a 133 FSB overclock on the Cel-T, I might have my mind made up. I would like to know how much faster, if any, 1.4G PIII-s is than a 1.6G Cel-T.

Or should I get a 1.1Ghz Celeron Tualitin for a darn near guarenteed overclock of 1463 Mhz at 133 FSB? Except I know that the 1.4 PIII-s is faster than the 1.43 Cel-T. Well, THAT thought didn't help things much. :-/

Melf

Well, if I had to guess, I'd say the PIII-S will be a tad faster. The PIII-S would have a bigger cache than the Tualatin Celly and data prefetch, which the desktop Celly doesn't have. I wouldn't go with the 1.1A, though the 1.1A would most likely make it to 133FSB; the PIII would be faster. I'm just kinda guessing though, I have a Tualatin Celeron 1.0A which does 1.53, however I haven't owned a PIII-S to benchmark it against. There might be a few other members who could give more specific information/benchmarks. Other computer sites might have some benchmarks too... as much as I hate to recommend them, Tom's Hardware ( www.tomshardware.com ) would be the best place to look for that information.

And yeah, I think the Gateway Install CD is brand-specific. I seem to remember having trouble with one of those once on a non-Gateway computer.
 

dagamore

Member
Joined
Dec 27, 2002
i hav eupgraded many systems from 1.2 cells to 1.4 tullys, and all of the end users have stated that the 1.4 tully is a god send, it is massivly faster, and just feels quicker, because of the extra l2 cache, if it was me i would go fro the tully, since you dont have to get anything elses, but you are about at the end of the tully being a good chip if you stress them.

you might also want to wait a while, since the 800 fsb p4 are out now, the tullys prices might drop soond.
 
OP
M

Melf the Elf

Registered
Joined
Apr 24, 2003
Location
Missouri (New Mexican by choice)
Thank You JazzTrumpet216 and Dagamore! PIII-s it is!

What I fear is that waiting TOO long will result in unavailability. Just try buying a K6-2+ anywhere but ebay today. Since I will be able to buy AGP Videocards for a couple of years yet, upgrading the processor now and the video card next year makes sense, even though a video card upgrade (from the absolutely nasty on-board video of the D815EEA) would give me a greater performance increase for games (Civilization3, AD&D Baldur's Gate to Neverwinter Nights, and Freelancer once I get back to the US).

Plus, my guilty pleasure is SETI. 600 work units since 1999. Don't laugh, I had a K6-200Mhz until 2001, and a 21.6kps modem connection (we live that far from civilization) until 4 months ago. I'm so retro, I probably won't change the motherboard until Athlon64s are second-string processors (like Paliminos or Williamettes, or even the Tualitin).

Melf
 

JCLW

Member
Joined
Apr 1, 2002
Well...

I find my Tualeron is plenty fast for games I play and I don't think I'd pay the extra $$$ for a PIII-S.

I don't really multitask on my Tualeron box 'tho - that's what the SMP box is for :)

- JW
 

jazztrumpet216

Senior @ss
Joined
Sep 23, 2001
Location
Milwaukee, Wisconsin
Yes, Tualerons are OK for gaming. But he said that he needs this to last 3 years- and if it needs to last that long and he's as power-hungry for performance as we are, then he should probably get the PIII-S. Likewise, he said he's a SETI'er, and the WU's are around 340k in size. That WU will more than fit into the cache of a PIII-S, and it wouldn't on a Tualeron, so his times will be a bit better.
 

Shade00

Member
Joined
Oct 3, 2002
Location
Louisiana Tech University
I had no idea that those bloody PIIIs were so expensive!

I have no experience with PIII-Ses vs. Cel-Ts, but I can tell you that I've had plenty of experience with Durons vs. Athlons. Not too long ago I had a Duron 1.2 running in my secondary box, and even with it running on a 133mhz bus, things still seemed kind of sluggish... Windows felt slow. Anyway, I popped that out to trade to a friend and stuck my old 1ghz Tbird in and WOW... the cache definitely made up for the clock speed difference.

Right now I'm working on putting together two Celery systems... one Celemine and one Tualatin. The only problem is I can't find a good O/Cing board for either one. :(
 

jazztrumpet216

Senior @ss
Joined
Sep 23, 2001
Location
Milwaukee, Wisconsin
Shade00 said:
Right now I'm working on putting together two Celery systems... one Celemine and one Tualatin. The only problem is I can't find a good O/Cing board for either one. :(

For the Tualatin, I would go with the Abit ST6. I've got my Tualeron on it, and it's working fine. I've also got an SA6 running a coppermine... which is OK but not the best.
 

Caffinehog

Übercaffinated Member
Joined
Dec 27, 2001
Location
In the lab
Try this: Instead of the new video card + mobo for the AMD system, go with the Epox 8RGA+ board with the best built in video available. It'll beat the crap out of your old system's onboard video, and you can add an even better card later than you can with the intel system. The board only costs about $125.

So now it's:
AMD Athlon XP 1700 - $58
256Meg DDR-333 RAM - $33
Epox 8RGA+ - $125
Total - $216

This will definately outperform your tualatin setup.
 

SmokinR6

Member
Joined
Mar 4, 2003
Location
Jerzey
Melf the Elf said:
Changing the motherboard would require new RAM and a new video card, pushing the price over the $225 limit I have to spend on the computer this year.

1.4G PIII-s - $215
1.2g Cel-T, Vantec Aeroflow, AS3, sandpaper - $90

AMD Athlon XP 1700pr - $58
MSI KT7 motherboard - $69
256Meg DDR-333 RAM - $33
ATI Radeon 9500 oem - $139
Total $ 299

This is not including the new operating system I would have to buy, as I fear the Gateway Windows install cd is system specific. Unless I can con the wife into letting me install Win98 :p

Actually, your comment led to this price comparison, which helped immensely. If I could be guarrenteed a 133 FSB overclock on the Cel-T, I might have my mind made up. I would like to know how much faster, if any, 1.4G PIII-s is than a 1.6G Cel-T.

Or should I get a 1.1Ghz Celeron Tualitin for a darn near guarenteed overclock of 1463 Mhz at 133 FSB? Except I know that the 1.4 PIII-s is faster than the 1.43 Cel-T. Well, THAT thought didn't help things much. :-/

Melf



Melf... Listen to me...I had the same setup PIII [email protected] 936. I upgraded to a tualatin [email protected] I have changed NOTHING else. DO NOT do the pin thing...Go Find yourself a GU370 Adapter or the NO NAme Adapter( wich I am using) for 10.00. My chip..the 1.2 cost me 39.95. So thats a total Of 50.00 bucks. I have NO problems with this setup for now. It runs smooth Overclocks much better than the 866. One thing is U will need to have the latest bios version installed. Not that it won't run without it. It will just read it wrong..For instance mine is read as 532B in bios. And some other programs such as Sandr and cpu Z might see it as a slot 1 or Pentium II....LOL this could actually be fun..But all seriousness if you need to upgrade to a (something for now) This works Great.
 

SmokinR6

Member
Joined
Mar 4, 2003
Location
Jerzey
jazztrumpet216 said:


Well, if I had to guess, I'd say the PIII-S will be a tad faster. The PIII-S would have a bigger cache than the Tualatin Celly and data prefetch, which the desktop Celly doesn't have. I wouldn't go with the 1.1A, though the 1.1A would most likely make it to 133FSB; the PIII would be faster. I'm just kinda guessing though, I have a Tualatin Celeron 1.0A which does 1.53, however I haven't owned a PIII-S to benchmark it against. There might be a few other members who could give more specific information/benchmarks. Other computer sites might have some benchmarks too... as much as I hate to recommend them, Tom's Hardware ( www.tomshardware.com ) would be the best place to look for that information.

And yeah, I think the Gateway Install CD is brand-specific. I seem to remember having trouble with one of those once on a non-Gateway computer.

2 Things... Like I said before Ive had both setups and am still running the celly 1.2. The only benchmarks I have are 3DMark 2001.
Both scores are done with identical hardware other than the processor. the 866..running at 936 scored in the low 200's the cell hits 5885. It's a clear difference in performance...(if gaming is what your after). Also remember you are using onboard video and I tested with GeForce3. Also Yes The gateway install cd's are Brand specific. Anything about Gay Tways..I know...Gives ya an Idea who I work for huh. Good luck.
 

ol' man

Member
Joined
Aug 23, 2001
jazztrumpet216 said:
The PIII-S would have a bigger cache than the Tualatin Celly and data prefetch, which the desktop Celly doesn't have.


Are you trying to say that the cel-t doesn't have prefetch?

The cel-t has prefetch. This has been covered many times.
 

ol' man

Member
Joined
Aug 23, 2001
I have a 1.0a @ 1.55GHz and I do not notice a difference in performence between it and the 1.7GHz PIII-s I have also. I just cannot when using the two notice much difference. The fsb is the main thing. Run a cel-t @ 133fsb vs. a PIII-s or tualatin PIII @ 133fsb and the differences will be marginal. My 1.0a may do more now than 1.55Ghz. If you get a cel-t that does 150MHz fsb you will have a chip that rivals PIII tualatins.

tualatin PIII 256k cache is around 2~5% faster than a cel-t @ same FSB. The PIII-s is around 2~5% faster than the PIII-tualatin 256k cache.

If you can save your self $100 I would spend it on a much better video card like maybe a 8500. This is what my wifes combo is a cel-t 1.0a @ 1.55GHz and a radeon 8500LE bios flashed to a 9100.
 

SmokinR6

Member
Joined
Mar 4, 2003
Location
Jerzey
I still have the PIII866 running 145fsb on my sons rig...I cant say that day to day use there is no big difference. Yes I can only keep my celly stable at 135 but I can't feel the difference...But like I stated....I can get much better 3dMark scores with the celly running at 135fsb than the PIII could even dream of reaching.
 

dustybyrd

Senior Member
Joined
Jan 31, 2003
Location
San Francisco, CA
i have extensive use with celeron and pentium III tualatins and the old coppermines....check my sig below...

and i AGREE WITH THE OL'MAN 100%....

the only advantage you will see with the p3s over the cel tualatin is in something like seti...because of the increased cache...

for everything else the difference in speed will not be noticeable and definitely not worth the extra money....

finally...if you game i would get the 8500le ati radeon for ~$60-75 on ebay (i did) and that will make the most difference for your system....

get the adaptor $20 shipped...a cel t 1.1 (guaranteed 133 fsb) or 1.2 (50% chance 133 fsb with extra voltage) for $45 shipped and the 8500 vid card for $75 on ebay...

total is $140 and that is a sweet system
 
OP
M

Melf the Elf

Registered
Joined
Apr 24, 2003
Location
Missouri (New Mexican by choice)
You Guys are great!

I love all this advice!

The limiting factor on overclocking the Tualerons is the Intel D815EEA's fixed buss speeds of 100 or 133Mhz Front Side Buss. Thus, overclocking the Cel-T is a 33% (by insulating the BSEL pin) or stock proposition.

If I got the the 1.2 Cel-T to run at 133 FSB, the 12% Mhz advantage over a 1.4G PIII-s should balance out the approximately 10% speed advantage the the PIII-s has over a Cel-T of the same speed. The 133 Mhz FSB is important to me because I can't run the memory asynchronisly, and the PIII's memory bottleneck is the second disadvantage it has over the the P4. The first, of course, being the absolute megahertz limit.

I see on the Database that only 1 1.2G Cel-T with a S-code of SL68P or later didn't make 133 FSB, and 4 actually made it with stock voltage! I also notice that those are all Phillipine chips. I suppose with the prices as low as they are, I could gamble, and then order a 1.1Ghz Cel-T if it doesn't work. All of the 1.1Ghz Cel-Ts made 133 FSB (at least), but only 2 people ran stock voltage.