Cheap gaming system advice

[biglonstud]

Hey all! It has been quite a while since I last posted(though I do read the forums).​

Anyways, my younger brother is wanting to get a computer.
His budget is ~$1000 and he intends to use it for surfing the net, writing papers and listening to music.
Of course any computer with atleast 512mb ram and 1.2ghz processor could handle this with ease. He is not interested in overclocking, and is not interested with toying with computers. However I am open to overclocking certain components for him(though I have had little experience myself, only having toyed around with an old AMD 3000+).

However he also intends to:

1) Compose music. He is working on his music major and would really like to get some better hardware and software for composition. He is currently using freebie software such as Anvil Studio for quick compositions on my computer. Any suggestions and/or recommendations for software and hardware related to composing(and sound editing) would be great.
​

2) Playing games. He has been playing Guild Wars for several years, a not so demanding game, however he also plays Team Fortress 2, Half Life 2 and is interested in playing Left 4 Dead, Guild Wars 2(upon release) and the hopefully soon to be released Starcraft II.
​

He has been wanting to get a new computer for months, and finally purchased a computer that I thought was a good deal, but second thoughts, the lack of a second opinion has spurred me on to make this thread. So here is the situation as of now, and maybe you guys would have some handy dandy suggestions.

Recently purchased:

Vostro 220 Mini-Tower $419, $487ish shipped, including:
Core 2 Duo E7400/2.8GHz,3M 1066FSB
2GB Non-ECC 800MHz DDR2,2X1GB
22 INCH S2209W 1900x1080(I believe is the correct resolution)
160GB Serial ATA Hard Drive 7200RPM, 8MB Cache
Windows Vista Home Basic with Service Pack 1 32-bit(didn't know this was 32-bit till after the purchase : /)
16X DVD+/-RW Drive 8X DVD+/-RW with double-layer DVD+/-R
Dell Mouse and keyboard
​

Was planning on purchasing:

MSI R4830-T2D512 OC Radeon HD 4830 512MB 256-bit GDDR3 PCI Express 2.0 x16 HDCP $89 &79AR
hec Orion XPOWER585 585W ATX12V 2.01 Power Supply $25 Thoughts: cheap, almost no name, however less 1-2 egg reviews than almost any other 500W+ PSU (by percentages)
And then possibly some cheap logitech speakers and headset, for about $40 for em both.
Cost for newegg purchase: ~ $155. ~$185ish shipped
​

So the price ends up being:

[Dell PC and Monitor] + [4830 + PSU + Speakers + Headset] = $670
$485 + $185 = $670 Shipped
​

I thought this was a great deal on a computer that would hopefully meet, and or exceed my brothers expectations. I would have liked for him to get a quad-core processor, possibly 4gb of ram, an ATI 4850 GPU(or overclock an 4830), 24" monitor, 640GB HD and 64-bit vista(vista rather than linux, for gaming purposes) for nearly ~$950 and about ~$1100ish shipped. However, that is neary $400 more, and would he really notice that big of a difference when gaming or composing?

After reading these articles I was thinking he might not notice that much of a difference: Guru 3D HIS 4830 Review and CPU Chart with E7200 in Crysis and AnAndtech's thoughts on this PC.

However after reading this review after the Dell purchase, I felt perhaps 2gb was good enough for gaming, but not good for load times... : bit-tech 2gb vs 4gb vs 8gb

Possible short comings with:

Not enough Hard drive space for music compositions(I edited and created 2 CDs worth of music for a dance company, uncompressed audio files can fill hard drive space almost as fast as ripping DVDs it seems to me.) Could be upgraded though, and I do have a spare 160GB HD.
​

Not enough Ram, as seen by the article comparing different amounts of ram linked to above, 2gb of ram had double the load times of some larger games and applications. He could purchase 4GB(2x2gb) of ram(only 2 dimms X P), and I could buy his 2 GB for my own pc(which has 2 dimm spots free).
Not quad core, though I rather doubt this will be an inconvenience to my brother this year.
​

Limited upgrade options, mostly concerned about the mother boards 2 dimm spots and vista home basic 32-bit 4gb memory limit.
​

Now I believe I can still cancel this purchase without charge, as it doesn't ship til the 17th(Feb 2009) or so...

I was, and still am, strongly considering building him a computer. I want to be sure my brother gets a value.

He currently has no parts for a computer, so if I were to build him one, he would need it

Any tips, recommendations, suggestions and advice regarding nearly anything in this thread would be much appreciated!

Thank you kindly!
- Lon

 

[GameSinewPCs]

First off let me lay a few considerations on you .

1. Why do people purchase and then ask? (rhetorical)

2. Have your brother look into "Fruity Loops." Its currently one of the leading audio editing programs, however there are other studio programs that he should also consider.

3. In this situation, if you feel confident and willing to take the time to build and potentially troubleshoot, then I definitely recommend that you (assuming you can) cancel the order and do a build yourself. As you've essentially paid for a few things that you may end up replacing anyhow. (That wasn't a terrible deal, just you will end up replacing components anyhow, so you can probably save by just building yourself).

4. The audio editing will be Memory/CPU dependent while, for the most part, the games you listed won't be too graphically demanding. On a side note, I think FL (and most audio software) is thread optimized, but I don't believe it will take advantage of more than 2 cores. Don't quote me on that, i recommend you dig a little bit for more information there.

5.I highly recommend avoiding a non-named brand PSU.

6. If he's going to be doing audio editting, then he may want to look into the following.

a. A good pair of High Quality Studio speakers.
b. An aftermarket soundcard (not a "gaming" card, more of an audiophile card)
c. Does he need a MIDI input/amplifier for instrument inputs?

I'll spec a few things (and im sure so will others) just so you can compare your options.

All in all, you didn't get a bad deal by any means...and great job with a well articulated, detail oriented post!

(PS, the monitor probably runs at 1680x1050)

 

[Niku-Sama]

i kinda skimmed, if you bought everything then thats that oh well.

$1000 isnt cheap by any means and if you want to bulid a cheap gaming machine reuse as much hardware as you can, you dont always need a new case, DVD burner, PSU, or Hard Drives, you can also re use hard drives with new ones too and help bring the costs down and its cheap and easy added room since well you already have it.

other than that its best prices

 

[GameSinewPCs]

Peripherals/special equipment to consider (discuss these options with him as he should know what he'll need).

Monitor: Hanns G 22" http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16824254035
-$159.99
Mouse/keyboard: A simple logitech mouse/keyboard combo http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16823126017
-$12.99
Sound Card (does he require any of these, if not they can always be added at a later time):


I recommend going to this site.
http://www.m-audio.com/index.php?do=products.family
http://www.m-audio.com/index.php?do=products.family&ID=PCIinterfaces
They have absolutely anything he'd need if hes doing any recording or editing from mixing software, to studio speakers to some of the best professional level sound cards available.

Also, consider recommending to him a pair of HIGH quality headphones instead of speakers as they'll cut costs over nice speakers and may prevent issues with others in his immediate environment.


In terms of the upper end of the spectrum that you should be spending, consider the following system:

Case: CM ELITE 335 http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811119161
PSU: TTAKE purepower 500w http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817153052
Motherboard: Gigabyte UD3L http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813128372
CPU: E8400 3.0Ghz http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819115037
Ram: 4GB (2x2GB) G.Skill DDR2800 http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820231122
GPU: Sapphire 4830 http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814102803
HDD: WD 320GB Sata http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822136098
ODD: Samsung 22xDVD Burner http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16827151173
Soundcard: (suggestions at top)
OS: Windows Vista HP 64bit

Price: About $670 shipped excluding Peripherals as listed above and before mirs

Pros of the system

Case: Cheap, yet durable with a good design, good airflow, quiet and small profile.
PSU: On sale, a reliable PSU (have used many times) with the wattage and leads you require.
Motherboard: Very flexible for future upgrades, will oc well and has lots of features.
CPU: The fastest dual core available = inexpensive/speed.
Ram: reliable, inexpensive and fast
GPU: Will play the games you listed without any issues as well as great video playback.
HDD: This particular model sits at a nice price point for its size and if you have an extra 160GB, I doubt you'll need more. However, if he thinks he does need more then consider the WD 640GB.
ODD: This Optical drive is inexpensive, but fast and reliable. Also, it supports most Read/Write formats as well as lightscribe (which may be nice to have if he decides to label any cds).

This system is more of a budget oriented design and won't be as flexible or quite as fast (** indicates change):

Case: CM ELITE 335 http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811119161
PSU: TTAKE purepower 500w http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817153052
**Motherboard: Foxconn M7VMX-K http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813186138
**CPU: E7400 @2.8ghz http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819115206
Ram: 4GB (2x2GB) G.Skill DDR2800 http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820231122
**GPU: Sapphire 4650 http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814102805
HDD: WD 320GB Sata http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822136098
ODD: Samsung 22xDVD Burner http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16827151173
Soundcard: (suggestions at top)
OS: Windows Vista HP 64bit

Price: $540 shipped excluding mirs


Motherboard: This board only has two memory dimms and is not designed for ocing. However, it will not bottleneck the GPU and should suit the rest of the system fine.
CPU: You can also potentially drop down to an E5200 for -$50, though this is a judgement call.
GPU: Will play the games you listed without any issues as well as great video playback, though will be a little less future proof than a 4830. Also, it may not play each game at max settings/resolution.

If you're planning on going quad core, then a low end AMD quad is probably your best bet.

You may be able to find some better deals as these were thrown together quite quickly. But what it seems to show is that you did make a well informed purchase, though you may want to replace some of the parts on the system you ordered. Will the dell system support 4GB of memory (the motherboard, the OS won't).

 

[biglonstud]

2. Have your brother look into "Fruity Loops." Its currently one of the leading audio editing programs, however there are other studio programs that he should also consider.

Right, my brother has previously played around with a demo of Fruity Loops. Ill see if it has a staff he can edit and print music with. Being a classically trained pianist he likes his staff bars. However it is my understanding that the roll bar, or what ever it is called, is usually the preferred method of composing on the computer, having greater control over the music than with just the staff. Also I think there are plenty of free programs that let you print out sheet music. Ill try downloading the demo of Fruity Loops and its competitors for my brother to experiment with.

3. In this situation, if you feel confident and willing to take the time to build and potentially troubleshoot, then I definitely recommend that you (assuming you can) cancel the order and do a build yourself. As you've essentially paid for a few things that you may end up replacing anyhow. (That wasn't a terrible deal, just you will end up replacing components anyhow, so you can probably save by just building yourself).

I rather agree with this, having to replace the PSU and possibly the ram. I am semi-comfortable building and troubleshooting a PC, having built a PC 2-3 or so years ago(I have also installed/replaced a CPU, HDs, Disc drives, etc).

4. The audio editing will be Memory/CPU dependent while, for the most part, the games you listed won't be too graphically demanding. On a side note, I think FL (and most audio software) is thread optimized, but I don't believe it will take advantage of more than 2 cores. Don't quote me on that, i recommend you dig a little bit for more information there.

You bring up a very important point I have forgotten about, editing and composing music would be quite CPU and Memory dependent. I imagine the dual core would be fine, but is 2 gb of ram, or even 4gb, sufficient for Fruity Loops and the like? I am now curious about 32-bit vs 64-bit music composition and editing. A bit more research is needed here me thinks.

5.I highly recommend avoiding a non-named brand PSU.

Out of all the parts in the system, the PSU is probably one of the most important parts, and it is the part I have the least confidence in...

6. If he's going to be doing audio editting, then he may want to look into the following.

a. A good pair of High Quality Studio speakers.
b. An aftermarket soundcard (not a "gaming" card, more of an audiophile card)
c. Does he need a MIDI input/amplifier for instrument inputs?

a. Very good point! Ill look into that.
b. Mmm, yes, I know little about PSUs and even less about sound cards.
c. You ask a very good question. Yes I do believe a MIDI input/amplifier would be required, as I forget to mention he would like to get a keyboard(he may already have use of a very nice keyboard in fact) for music composition and recording directly on to the computer.

Perhaps a good microphone is in order too... I totally forgot about much of his musical requirements before he purchased the Dell.

I'll spec a few things (and im sure so will others) just so you can compare your options.

All in all, you didn't get a bad deal by any means...and great job with a well articulated, detail oriented post!

(PS, the monitor probably runs at 1680x1050)

Great, thank you for all the help GameSinewPCs!
(PS, I don't see 22" 1080p monitors often, but this one seems to be 1080p)

 

[GameSinewPCs]

(PS, I don't see 22" 1080p monitors often, but this one seems to be 1080p)

I stand corrected .

 

[biglonstud]

You may be able to find some better deals as these were thrown together quite quickly. But what it seems to show is that you did make a well informed purchase, though you may want to replace some of the parts on the system you ordered. Will the dell system support 4GB of memory (the motherboard, the OS won't).

Yes, I do believe the Dell system will support up to 4GB of memory(have option for 4GB, 2x2GB when ordering).

Thank you for your quick and great response GameSinewPCs.

 

[GameSinewPCs]

You're welcome.

I recommend discussing these options with your brother and keep in mind the available expansion slots on the dell (will it have the necessary slots to accommodate his additional needs if any).

 

[biglonstud]

I have been playing around with some builds, I forgot to post them though.
So here is one PDF format attached to this post, though I neglected to include a hard drive in that build.

Usually my proposed builds end up having something like:

~$30-$50 case(Cooler Master or maybe cheaper case)
~$25-50 500w+ PSU(usually lean towards cheaper, though afraid of getting 'burnt')
5000x2 or Phenom II AMD ($60, $190 respectively) Oh and usually I just spec out AMD because that is what I am familiar with. I am for what ever CPU/Mobo combo is the greatest value for your needs and budget. I have a hard time justifying getting a quad core, as I rather doubt he would utilize all the power, and im sure he can get quad core later when he does need it at sub-$100 prices.
$90 4830 512mb ATI GPU
$170-$220 22" or 24" Monitor, Acer or Asus
$75-$100 Motherboard 780GX or 790
$12 Logitech Mouse/Keyboard combo(this is cheap for a good mouse and keyboard isn't it).
$50 -$25mir 2x2GB DDR2 800Mhz Ram (Corsair, Patriot, what ever seems to be decent and most on sale)
$75 640GB Harddrive
$100 Vista Premium, 64-bit.​

Usually comes between $700 and $800, but after shipping and taxes, it totals up to about $800-$950.

Oh and really the only parts I have that "might" be salvageable...

I *could* take a DVD drive from my parents computer, they never put DVDs into there old PC.

I do have an 11+ year old PC, that has a nice steel beige case. Very heavy, built like a tank. Not sure how much mother board mounting has changed since the early 90s.

I have a stock heat sink and AM2 3000+ AMD CPU.

I also have a ATA 200GB HD or 2.​

After examining your specked out build(thanks a lot for specking out an Intel, I am not very familiar with them), I see that compared to the Dell PC + upgrades that:
Building a PC costs about, well looking at your cheap build, any where from no more to $200 more. You also have many more options for upgrades, 64-bit OS(can utilize a full 4.5GB+ of total system memory), larger hard drive, great(non proprietary motherboard), nice Case and Power supply.

Those are some nice builds you posted. Ill discuss these options with my brother, and will do a bit for research on this music composition software.

Thank you for your time and great advice.

 

[GameSinewPCs]

Again, if theres any place you don't want to skimp it's the psu. The better voltage regulation and capacitors of name brand psus (not to mention the more accurately listed peak output levels and other features such as pfc, longer leads, better cooling (quieter as well), higher efficiency etc.) will far outweigh the additional costs (if any) and can potentially save you from a fried system.

The 11 year old case probably won't have atx or micro atx mounting holes. These potentially could be drilled in, but only if you are confident with the accuracy of your hole placements.

If he's mixing music, he'll probably want to be able to burn cds, so if you use your parents DVD drive make sure it is a burner and not a rom (for cds at least). Also, if you plan on using older drives with your system, make sure you have enough IDE slots to accommodate them as most modern boards only have a single IDE slot (2 devices).

An AMD 3000+ cpu will work, though I'm not sure what he has now an how it'l compare, but it will be significantly slower than the other options you were looking at.

Monitor: With audio editing, he may be better off with 2 smaller monitors than one large one. For example, spending the $150 or so on a 22" and then purchasing a second 22" when ready as opposed to spending close to $250 on a 23"-24". Also, if the resolution doesn't increase, you won't be getting any more tangible desktop space, just screen real state.

If you're looking into an AMD system (a perfectly viable option) then consider the following components:

CPU: I recommend either an X2 5200 brisbane (2.7Ghz) or an X2 7750 Kuma (2.7Ghz)
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819103210
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819103300
The Kuma processor is based on the Deneb architecture and is essentially a Phenom II. Keep in mind that if you were to go with the Kuma, you would need to purchase an aftermarket HS/fan (an inexpensive one will do fine if you're not ocing).

Motherboards: For a basic motherboard, this is probably your best bet in terms of keeping the price down but getting what you'll need. http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813186155

As for a more capable board with expandable memory a better PCIe slot and better other onboard devices, then this is what you should consider. http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813131330
or if you're willing to do a mail in rebate and want options http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813130172

Your brother really won't have a need for any of the higher end chipsets that support Xfire and are better overclockers.

Case: I love the CM centurion 5 and rc 534 cases, but honestly they aren't needed for this system. So save yourself the $ and go with a less expensive (and maybe slightly smaller) chassis like the one I showed you or an inexpensive rosewill, foxconn or gigabyte case. If you end up going with a micro-atx tower you can cut about $5-$10 by going with an HEC case (no psu included), but you'll be best off with a small mid for this build.

I recommend discussing his audio options (speakers/headphones) with him as he may have specific preferences. This is one situation where high end headphones/speakers really make a difference in day to day application.

Lastly, if you have plenty of extra HDDs (such as a 200GB) lying around then you may not need the 640GB and could save $xx here. Again, ask your brother what he thinks. Audio usually doesn't take up too much space, but thats in MP3 or other compressed formats, he may work with a lot of music in High quality uncompressed formats and he'll probably have a pretty good idea of how much space he'll require. Keep in mind that it is recommended not to fill any particular drive completely in order to maintain Read/Write speeds. Remember, you're comparing different types of apples here when looking at these designs vs the dell, so weigh the pros and cons.