Collusion, coincidence or somewhere in between?

[Archer0915]

Collusion, coincidence or somewhere in between?

First off it makes no sense to support PC hardware forever, costs money.

It makes no sense not to make software that is compatible with 10 year old hardware.

So... does software force hardware manufacturers to keep upping their game? Yes, at times, as things get more complex.

Games or complex software can force an upgrade. A new OS can as well. But windows 11 and the TPM is another thing. These newer systems are lasting longer and longer so... why not force an upgrade across the board?

Well it is complex but look at who profits from the forced upgrade. Wonder who make money when upgrades are forced for a reason not related to CPU power?

Who on the MS board stands to profit? We know that the OS will run on non compatible systems. It is not necessary. A forced upgrade.

 

[FoldingAddict]

Firmware attacks are more and more common now, seems to make sense that the most adopted OS would push for hardware based security measures on top of their software based solution. Microsoft is just taking a play from Apple here really. And if you don't care, or don't mind rolling the dice, you can work around the Windows 11 requirements with basically one click in Rufus.

 

[Janus67]

My understanding is they forced tpm for enhanced/built in security.

 

[Archer0915]

Seemed to favor Intel, meaning Intel makes money off of it.

Firmware attacks... No, not seeing it. If MS did it properly it would have made it an option not a requirement.

 

[FoldingAddict]

This happens all the time though, and arguably in ways that are not so easy to work around. Every few years there's a new socket that forces extra hardware upgrades if you want to upgrade CPUs. DDR5 comes out and you can't move to a new CPU generation without new RAM. A new game releases that requires a new API to run. Windows 11 has hardware requirements sure, but Windows 11 itself is not a requirement to run new hardware. If a supply chain benefits from a hardware requirement (Intel, AMD, TSMC etc) imposed by Microsoft, I don't really see anything wrong with that.

 

[Archer0915]

This happens all the time though, and arguably in ways that are not so easy to work around. Every few years there's a new socket that forces extra hardware upgrades if you want to upgrade CPUs. DDR5 comes out and you can't move to a new CPU generation without new RAM. A new game releases that requires a new API to run. Windows 11 has hardware requirements sure, but Windows 11 itself is not a requirement to run new hardware. If a supply chain benefits from a hardware requirement (Intel, AMD, TSMC etc) imposed by Microsoft, I don't really see anything wrong with that.

I do see an issue with it but it is a matter of opinion. A business operates to make money, hardware and software drive each other but this, IMHO was done predominantly to force upgrades. Face it most, computers are OEM systems. Those people that want to have the latest, for whatever reason, are going to buy a new PC. MS makes more money as to the hardware manufacturers.

 

[stompah]

MacOS

Multiple flavors of Linux.

iOS if you're cool with using an iPad as a PC. Which in my experience is viable.

Can use a Samsung phone with Dex

Android tablet as a PC

Chromebooks galore.


So many options to use other than Windows 10/11.

With programs and formats becoming cross platform compatible, I see no reason to complain about on OS requiring something new. This isn't 1990 where if you had a file made on a Mac it wouldn't be

How many Windows operating system releases wouldn't work on hardware older than a generation or two?


So many businesses I've been in or worked for have 1 of 2 attitudes toward tech (predominantly).

#1 only upgrade when it will no longer turn on or function. Who cares if it takes a few minutes to open a web browser.

#2 very fast upgrade cycle. Nothing is ever considered old tech unless forced to stay 'old tech'. Ie old hardware to power old equipment or old OS to run old software, etc...


I doubt many businesses are wringing their hands about Windows 11.

 

[Archer0915]

MacOS

Multiple flavors of Linux.

iOS if you're cool with using an iPad as a PC. Which in my experience is viable.

Can use a Samsung phone with Dex

Android tablet as a PC

Chromebooks galore.


So many options to use other than Windows 10/11.

With programs and formats becoming cross platform compatible, I see no reason to complain about on OS requiring something new. This isn't 1990 where if you had a file made on a Mac it wouldn't be

How many Windows operating system releases wouldn't work on hardware older than a generation or two?


So many businesses I've been in or worked for have 1 of 2 attitudes toward tech (predominantly).

#1 only upgrade when it will no longer turn on or function. Who cares if it takes a few minutes to open a web browser.

#2 very fast upgrade cycle. Nothing is ever considered old tech unless forced to stay 'old tech'. Ie old hardware to power old equipment or old OS to run old software, etc...


I doubt many businesses are wringing their hands about Windows 11.

Until MS stops updates.

 

[stompah]

There is over two more years of security updates for Windows 10.

That's plenty of time to update hardware or migrate to s different OS.

Even still there is a way to install Windows 11 without TPM.

 

[EarthDog]

These newer systems are lasting longer and longer so..

Are they??? No. Not seeing it.

Seemed to favor Intel, meaning Intel makes money off of it.

This is a security thing for the OS. W11 requires fTPM on AMD too.

MS makes more money as to the hardware manufacturers.

Post 5 and 7. It happens...

Firmware attacks... No, not seeing it.

They are becoming an increasingly common attack vector, hence the preventative measures for "enhanced/built in security".

...and again...

Even still there is a way to install Windows 11 without TPM.

While planned obsolescence is a thing, I don't find W11/TPM to be collusion, no. The needle leans towards coincidence for me. Not buying the selling points I've seen so far. Just because people within the ecosystem stand to profit doesn't exclusively mean they are in cahoots and was a primary driving factor. Can't you also buy a TPM module dirt cheap (compared to upgrading) and connect it to the TPM header anyway on boards that don't natively support it? I remember that was a big thing when news of this came out...people bought them up and started selling them for profit, lol.

 

[Archer0915]

MacOS

Multiple flavors of Linux.

iOS if you're cool with using an iPad as a PC. Which in my experience is viable.

Can use a Samsung phone with Dex

Android tablet as a PC

Chromebooks galore.


So many options to use other than Windows 10/11.

With programs and formats becoming cross platform compatible, I see no reason to complain about on OS requiring something new. This isn't 1990 where if you had a file made on a Mac it wouldn't be

How many Windows operating system releases wouldn't work on hardware older than a generation or two?


So many businesses I've been in or worked for have 1 of 2 attitudes toward tech (predominantly).

#1 only upgrade when it will no longer turn on or function. Who cares if it takes a few minutes to open a web browser.

#2 very fast upgrade cycle. Nothing is ever considered old tech unless forced to stay 'old tech'. Ie old hardware to power old equipment or old OS to run old software, etc...


I doubt many businesses are wringing their hands about Windows 11.

I see it as somewhere in between.

 

[FoldingAddict]

I'll give you some dates:

Windows 98 release date: June 25 1998

Windows 10 release date: July 29 2015

Was anybody using Windows 98 in 2006 by choice? No? Was Windows 98 still viable in 2006? No? But here we are in 2023, 8 years removed from the release of Windows 10, and it's still viable, still supported, completely usable. We've come leaps and bounds away from being forced to upgrade things as much as we used to have to on both the hardware and software side. Whether that's by design or by advancement limitations the result is the same. Could you imagine going back to 2000 and telling somebody that one day Microsoft would release their OS as essentially shareware? I'm obviously not saying that model is Microsoft be altruistic, it's about market share and data acquisition, but the result stands. PCs have never been more consumer friendly than they are now.

 

[Archer0915]

I'll give you some dates:

Windows 98 release date: June 25 1998

Windows 10 release date: July 29 2015

Was anybody using Windows 98 in 2006 by choice? No? Was Windows 98 still viable in 2006? No? But here we are in 2023, 8 years removed from the release of Windows 10, and it's still viable, still supported, completely usable. We've come leaps and bounds away from being forced to upgrade things as much as we used to have to on both the hardware and software side. Whether that's by design or by advancement limitations the result is the same. Could you imagine going back to 2000 and telling somebody that one day Microsoft would release their OS as essentially shareware? I'm obviously not saying that model is Microsoft be altruistic, it's about market share and data acquisition, but the result stands. PCs have never been more consumer friendly than they are now.

Lots of middle ware out there. I still use an XP system at work. No choice because it runs old equipment.

I am not arguing against any view here. Like I said, Collusion (yup sure that is in there), coincidence or both. Both would be the market advancing, it happens but this one case really has me wondering. It is absolutely not necessary. The TPM issue is just fishy to me.

 

[stompah]

While planned obsolescence is a thing, I don't find W11/TPM to be collusion, no. The needle leans towards coincidence for me.

Collusion, coincidence or evolution? I say evolution.

Hackers have hacked every part of today's PC from the BIOS to the OS to the programs that run on the OS to the peripherals that plug into the PC even to the wires that connect the peripherals. It's all been hacked and cracked waiting for someone to deploy their malware.

ED, you've around long enough to know that there is likely a backdoor to TPM and maybe even a few holes.

Once TPM is compromised, again security will evolve on to the next protection. It will continue ad infinitum.

I see it as somewhere in between.

Are you referring to my comment of how companies handle tech?

If so, even then the between companies will likely not be affected much. They are either already on a hardware that supports TPM, cycling through the hardware that doesn't support TPM or adjusting their upgrade cycle to coincide with end of security updates for W10.

_______________

Me personally I only moved to Windows 10 because Windows 8.1 sucked for me and Windows 10 was a breath of fresh air.

Windows 10 is working fine for me. So, I am in no rush to jump to Windows 11. To me and probably most people there is little reason/need to update to Windows 10 at the moment.

And I'm just a BIOS update away from supporting fTPM.

Probably never will as in the next year or two my next upgrade will be a ground up rebuild and I imagine then, if not already, everything I look at which will be midrange performance/quality or higher will have TPM natively.

Even still, if Microsoft continues it's Windows 10 security updates beyond 2025 I'll likely stay with Windows 10 for familiarity purpose. I'm getting old. I don't like relearning how to do simple tasks.

 

[Archer0915]

In between meaning there are many factors at play. Is there collusion? Yes it is called planning. Cooperation is, in a way collusion, It depends on intent.

Sure it is progression but these things do need to be checked.

Like I have said many times at work, we are running a business, not a charity.

 

[EarthDog]

Well......collusion, by definition, expressly relays something is dubious nature. Secretive...illegal. So, technically you can cooperate and collude, but clearly collusion has a negative and illegal connotation, where cooperation does not. It's not both.

 

[Archer0915]

Well......collusion, by definition, expressly relays something is dubious nature. Secretive...illegal. So, technically you can cooperate and collude, but clearly collusion has a negative and illegal connotation, where cooperation does not. It's not both.

Is collusion illegal? Advanced planning to maximize profits.

 

[EarthDog]

Is collusion illegal? Advanced planning to maximize profits.

It CAN be. Again.....it's in the definition...

noun
noun: collusion

1. secret or illegal cooperation or conspiracy, especially in order to cheat or deceive others.

Advanced planning to maximize profits is not what you're suggesting, however. You seem to be inferring this was shady for profits. Profits can be a byproduct of the change, indeed.

It may be secret (was it? We didn't know they have to work together for this hardware - intel - security measure), but most in the thread seem to believe there isn't a conspiracy to cheat or deceive others. So, was there cooperation? Absolutely. Was it illegal? Nope. Did they cheat or deceive others? I highly doubt it. I'm willing to hear and listen and have. Personally, I believe the conclusion that some form of collusion was involved has more logic gaps than if it wasn't. Eyes wide open, of course, I'm just not drying them out looking for???

The needle is now pegged at 'evolution' (coincidence in the middle, collusion on the opposite side, lol) driving the market. TPM's intent, along with MS and board partners, did not meet to cheat or deceive others. I'm certain they got together to figure out how to do things, though.

 

[Janus67]

Exactly. That's be like it's collusion for a game to have support for RTX/DLSS and Nvidia to work with developers to assist in the implementation. Or I guess more specifically would be Microsoft working with developers when a game only supports a newer version of DirectX split by OS levels

 

[Archer0915]

It CAN be. Again.....it's in the definition...

noun
noun: collusion

1. secret or illegal cooperation or conspiracy, especially in order to cheat or deceive others.

Advanced planning to maximize profits is not what you're suggesting, however. You seem to be inferring this was shady for profits. Profits can be a byproduct of the change, indeed.

It may be secret (was it? We didn't know they have to work together for this hardware - intel - security measure), but most in the thread seem to believe there isn't a conspiracy to cheat or deceive others. So, was there cooperation? Absolutely. Was it illegal? Nope. Did they cheat or deceive others? I highly doubt it. I'm willing to hear and listen and have. Personally, I believe the conclusion that some form of collusion was involved has more logic gaps than if it wasn't. Eyes wide open, of course, I'm just not drying them out looking for???

The needle is now pegged at 'evolution' (coincidence in the middle, collusion on the opposite side, lol) driving the market. TPM's intent, along with MS and board partners, did not meet to cheat or deceive others. I'm certain they got together to figure out how to do things, though.

Actually it can be see that way.

Collusion (secret not evil just not sharing openly) and market driven.

A little of everything, nothing illegal with the intent to make money.

But if all was known it could hurt the market share of CPU, CHIPSET, main board manufacturers and a tad for MS.