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Cluster

Member
Joined
Dec 5, 2001
Location
Canuckistan
Hmmm... how to overclock? Well, i guess you could say you came to the right place. I'll start by explaining a few terms. I'm going to assume you know little about what i'm talking about for now. :)

FSB(Front Side Bus) - This is the main system bus speed on your motherboard. You CPU speed is determined by this speed when multiplied by it's multiplier (133MHz x 7.5 = 1GHz). It also determines the speed at which your memory works and the memory bandwidth between the processor and memory.
vCore - This is the voltage of your CPU.
memCore - This is the voltage of your memory
Multiplier - Multiplied by the FSB to get CPU speed
Idle Temps - Temperature at which you will find in the BIOS. It shows what your computer is at when the CPU is doing very little processing.
Load Temps - Temperature when the processor is under 100% load. This is best achieved while running Folding@Home

The setings for overclocking are limited by your bios. For optimal overclocking your bios should contain vCore, memCore, FSB, and Multiplier settings. I am assuming when writing this that yours does. If not than you will be limited by your settings.

The most biggest concern when overclocking is your temperature. A program like MBM 5 will give you readouts on your temperature, voltages and CPU speed. Here's a simple guidline concerning temperatures.
  • <30*C - Ideal overclocking temperatures
  • 30-40*C - Good temperatures. Will allow for some overclocking
  • 40-50*C - An alright temp for a Load Temp. Doesn't leave much room for overclocking. Should still remain stable.
  • 50-60*C - A touchy area. Your computer may be stable, but don't overclock.
  • >60*C - Get some better cooling or lower your overclock.

This is a "safe" guideline to use. I have run my processor up to 80*C and it has not damaged it. But of course, it would not stay stable and was not usable.

The things that most adversly affect the CPU temperatures are the vCore and teh CPU Speed. Every CPU has it's limitations. You can increase your chances of reaching those limits with better cooling.

First I will start out describing how to overclock without being able to change the multiplier on your CPU. Doing it this way is all in the FSB.

Leaving your vCore and memCore alone, start upping your FSB. Try moving it 5MHz at a time. Keep track of your idle temps in the BIOS while doing this. If the temps get above 40*C and your system is still stable, then you may want to get some better cooling. As long as these temps stay below 40*C you'll be just fine to continue. If your temps are below 40*C and your system is unstable, then it is time to move the voltages up. Your vCore will be the first one you want to try. Move it up a small bit (usually .025v is one increment). If your system becomes stable, and is still good for a temp, then keep moving up the FSB. If your moving up the vCore and it's not helping, then you'll want to move up the memCore. Keep repeating this, always keeping tabs on your temps, until your vCore/memCore are maxed out, your cooling will not suffice, or your system won't handle any more. This is your max overclock.

Now if you are able to change your multplier you have an advantage. The main points still apply, but you will get more control. First what you will want to do is find your max FSB. As you increase the FSB, move your multiplier down so that your CPU stays below stock speed. This way you'll know that your CPU is not your limiting factor in achieving high FSB speeds. (High FSB is better). You will only have to concentrate on your memCore, FSB and temps while doing this. Want you want to do is find the maximum possible FSB. Your processor temps should move much since your not overclocking the CPU yet. But your motherboard temps may rise. They shouldn't matter too mcuh, but make sure these stay under the 35-40 mark. Once you have found the most that you can get out of your FSB, write that number down, or at least don't forget it. Now comes time for the CPU. Have your FSB at where you maxed out (maybe 2-3MHz lower), and have your multiplier set so that the CPU is close to stock speeds. Your temperature should be fairly normal. Start moving the Multiplier up. Keep tabs on your CPU temps. If your system starts locking up, but your temps aren't to bad, then you'll want to try upping your vCore. You will hit a barrier eventually. Either your system will crash (unstable) or your temps will be too high (unstable). Once you have achieved your max on the FSB and CPU speed, and your temps are within optimal range, give yourself a pat on the back.

Now for cooling purposes, 2 main ways to cool your CPU. Heatsink & Fan(HSF) or a Waterblock(WB). With either setup you'll need thermal paste. Products like Arctic Silver II / III are considered top of the line, but any thermal paste will do. A HSF uses plain air cooling and is limited by the temperature in the room the computer is located. A WB uses water to transfer heat from the CPU. With a setup like this you can cool the water, sometimes to subzero themperatures, therefore allowing you to get colder temperatures.
Another part to cool is the RAM. Ramsinks or RAM heatspreaders should suffice here. If you go for really high FSB (+166MHz) you may want to look into placing a fan blowing over the ram.
Also case fans are helpful, especially when useing a HSF so that the temp inside your case is as close to room temperature as possible. The cooler your case is, the cooler the air cooling your CPU is.

A note on adding thermal paste that many people miss is using to much. The void that the thermal paste needs to fill is usually microscopic. If you are able to look sideways at an attached Heatsink, you'll see that very little daylight, if any can be seen between the heatsink and the processor core or heat spreader. An easy way to know if your applying to much is to put what you think is the right amount, apply the heatsink then remove. If there is any paste around the edges of the core/heatspreader or a ridge outlining the surface on the heatsink than that is how much extra you didn't need to put on. A key thing to remember is that most thermal pastes aren't that great at conducting heat. They are only meant to fill the microscopic voids that are in the material that make up the core/heatspreader and heatsink. It is used because it is better than the air that would reside otherwise.

There are other ways to get higher overclocks. To do most of these you have to be willing to ruin your board, and be good with a soldering gun. Some boards do not support multiplier settings, but it is possible to add them with dip switches. You can also add resistors to up your memCore and vCore past what your motherboard may support. For example most motherboards dont' support anything higher than a 1.85v vCore (For AMD, not sure on Intel), and a 2.8v memCore. As I said, it's not impossible to get higher, and many have done this with no problems.

Remember one thing more. Overclocking voids the warranty on all parts. If you motherboard is fried while overclocking, then that's your loss. Yes you can probably get away with an RMA, but that is the cowardly way out. Take responsiblity for what you are doing. I'm not trying to scare you away. If your safe about what you are doing, and don't try to goto the extremem your hardware should be fine. Just don't go taking things back to the store if you break them.

I hope this helps you out, and if you have any more questions, feel free to ask.
 
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Well done with the post Cluster ;)
Just a few additions:

On a few systems the FSB is doubled or quadrupeled (sp?). Eg, the AthlonXP:

1333MHz = 133 * 10 but FSB = 2x133 = 266MHz

The Pentium 4:

2000Mhz = 100 *20 but FSB = 4x100 = 400MHz


Dividers help determine the value of the memory speed, PCI speed and AGP speed. These are taken against the FSB before it is doubled or quadrupeled:

ie. Athlon 1333 the bus is 133MHz. The AGP will be 1/2 = 66MHz and PCI 1/4 = 33MHz. Memory will be 1/1 = 133MHz
If you increase this to 150:
AGP = 1/2 = 75MHz
PCI = 1/4 = 37.5MHz
RAM = 1/1 = 150Mhz

This means that some video cards and PCI cards as well as memory can limit an overclock.
 
I found that your load program Folding is just a way to advertise. To be honest, Prime95 Torture Testing is the best.

I'd have to say:

40-45 Load is where you want to be when overclocking. 45-50 is the maximum you want to be. Anything over 50 is pretty serious, and will most likely become unstable.
 
Load Temps - Temperature when the processor is under 100% load. This is best achieved while running Folding@Home
thats awesome cluster.
Dont listen to Yodums, Folding at home is THE BEST WAY to test load temps. Its how all the cool members here do it.:D:)

And i would like to add that often a higher FSB is better than a higher speed on the processor.
unlocking the CPU to get as much out of the FSB is a great idea.
here is an excellent resource for unlocking info:
http://forum.oc-forums.com/vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=66470
the FSB supplies data to the CPU, so if you can run 160x10.5=1680, thats better than 133x12.5=1660

even the though the cpu is almost the same speed in both scenario's, performance will be much better,especially in games, with a higher FSB.
good guide Cluster!:beer:
-Malakai
 
Folding may not be the absolute best for load testing but it also helps the team, and indirectly, the world.

SETI and Prime95 are also good load testers.
 
All I said was Folding is good for getting Load TEMPS, not load testing. Quake3 would have to be the best for a full system load. It'll test your HDD, Vid card, system busses, memory and processors. If you run all maxed out settings this can really show wether your system is stable or not.

And about the FSB being doubled or quadrupled, that's not exactly true. It depends on the architecutre. I'll have to wait till i get home and look at the schematics, but I believe that for the SocketA architecture, the FSB is divided into the Memory Bus and the Processor Bus. It's only the Memory Bus (connection between the processor and memory) that can use the Doubled bus speed of 200/266/333. DDR memory also runs internally at 200/266/333. The processor itself uses a 100/133/166 FSB respectively. Then multiplies upon that.

So the FSB is actually 133 on that Athlon, it's just the memory bus that gets doubled.

I'm not completly sure on the P4 and RDRAM. I'll look into it and drop back with the details.
 
Cluster thats not true. the northbridge of a DDR mobo sends a DDR signal into the CPU. the bus is runnung at 133mhz, but the CPU recieves 2 bits of data on each cycle.
-Malakai
 
DDR means that the data will be transmitted on the rising and falling edges of the 100/133Mhz bus.
 
Cluster to get the load temperature the CPU must be at load as well. The programs put hard stress on the CPU, and that's where it heats up. You also have to test the load temperature for a certain time, like you don't get it right away, you get it after an hour or so.
 
The absolute best way to test stability is gaming, it puts massive stress on every part of the system.
prime 95 is good cause it tells u if your CPU/Ram subsystem is generating errors.


common o/c'ing errors are progams encountering errors and needing to close(in NT kernal os'es), in 9x OS'es they are called "illegal operations"
BSOD's, reboots, lockups, u name it.
almost anythingcan go wrong with too high of an o/c
-Malakai
 
seamadan000 said:
hey guys, what do you think is the best way to test overall system stability? And what are the symptoms of a system that has been pushed too far (lock ups of couse, but are there others?).

thanks, seamadan000

Try folding for a day or two, after running 3dmark2001se for 10 hours or so. Then play every game you can find. If it can survive that with no problems (crashes etc) then it is stable.
 
I promote folding too, but, it hardly gives you LOAD temps, Prime 95 too for that matter, they are WEAK! TOAST is how to truly see your load temps, I guarantee you will see 5-10C hotter than the above programs. I have uploaded it to my server for those of you who are brave enough to run it.

*WARNING* Watch your temps!!!

http://www.netbetty.com/toast.zip
 
I'd recommend anyone new to OC'ing not allow their temps to go above 50c until they are very sure of what they are doing. I'd also recommend only AMD temps ever going above 60c...never an intel.

I don't believe there really is a true "overall" stress test program for the entire system, however Folding, Seti, Prime95 or Quake are all excellent canadates for getting your temps very high.

SiSoft Sandra is an excellent stress test as well as a bench mark program for the majority of system components, while 3D Mark is a fair starting point for video cards.
 
You might want to add Arctic Silver's instructions of applying thermal paste in there. Enough people don't realise how much little paste is needed to fill the core. They put so much that they saw AS3 dripping down.

Also you should include that the motherboard is a very important part of overclocking. Without a good motherboard, you can't do anything.

Another is obviously cooling. Adding as many case fans are you want won't help, you have to arrange them to have an equal intake + exhaust. Too much exhaust and no intake is bad. You take out hot air but where is the cool air to enter? You intake too much, nothing is taking out the hot air etc.

Yodums
 
AS3 is not always dripping cause of people aplying to much. It just does. Don't ask me why, but also when aplied the right way, it might start to drip from the cpu.

EDIT: AS III slips better away when it is aplied to much than AS II. That's why it drips even though people haven't had problems with the AS II. Sorry for the mistake people....

elysium
 
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newbie question

when i use MBM5 it doesnt show temperatures, this is all i see (posted in pic below)
is there anything i need to do to fix this ??
 
auri, is the mhz readout correct? if it is, your motherboard may not have support for the readouts. i know my old AT mobo with a K6-II didnt support it.

if youre looking for insane temp jumps, use this on the k7 setting
http://users.ev1.net/~redelm/

it makes my cpu temps 2F hotter than toast and did it in like half the time
 
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as an example, it just crashed an oc that i had been running stable for two weeks (after about 4 hours of burning, which it had survived before) it seems really strange to me that it would do that because i have run CPUburn for a day straight on this exact configuration without any problems. any input?
 
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