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Getting crazy With Helium

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CreePinG_DeatH_reverted

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Dec 22, 2000
Getting crazy With Helium

The experiment has been done. Computer components have been cooled with a chemical fluorinert manufactured by 3m innovations. The motherboard and such were submerged in the stuff and then cycled through a radiator which cool the fluorinert with Liquid Nitrogen. The temperature of the fluorinert dropped down to -150C and the Computer stopped working. Until computer components are made out of a much more resilliant material, don't waste your time with extreme cooling.
 

Thelemac

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Mar 15, 2001
Depends how you define "extreme cooling"...to mea that means taking it to the extreme edge of reliability for a cpu...-50C. That is going to get you some very good results without killing your chip.

Going below that isn't going to help you any, though.
 

BrianCapps

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Aug 7, 2001
Location
La Grande, OR
I thought that the computer in that article quit working because the liquid nitrogen turned the flourinert into Jell-o. It's been a while since I read the thing, but do you have linkage?
 

ol' man

Member
Joined
Aug 23, 2001
Re: Getting crazy With Helium

CreePinG_DeatH said:
The experiment has been done. Computer components have been cooled with a chemical fluorinert manufactured by 3m innovations. The motherboard and such were submerged in the stuff and then cycled through a radiator which cool the fluorinert with Liquid Nitrogen. The temperature of the fluorinert dropped down to -150C and the Computer stopped working. Until computer components are made out of a much more resilliant material, don't waste your time with extreme cooling.

Better not tell this guy that cryo cooling doesn;t work. I amthinking he might not believe you.

010907_06.jpg



010906_01.gif


Here is a link to this guy.

http://holicho.lib.net/bench/h_clock.htm
 

ol' man

Member
Joined
Aug 23, 2001
Thelemac said:
Depends how you define "extreme cooling"...to mea that means taking it to the extreme edge of reliability for a cpu...-50C. That is going to get you some very good results without killing your chip.

Going below that isn't going to help you any, though.


Hmmmmmmmm, really.

I hit 1840 MHz with my ST6 and my CPU was at -61 deg. C. SO you are telling me this guy here could have hit 3GHz without using LN and simply using dry ice as I did.

I have seen the same guy take dry ice and not get the MHz he did with LN2. There is usually about 200MHz difference between using LN2 and dry ice.


Here is a pic of my cryo cooler in action.
 

Thelemac

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Perhaps I didn't word that properly. By not help you I meant something completley different. :)

What I meant to say is that going much below that will only increase the destruction rate of your cpu...because it's pulling away from itself. Short periods of time would be fine, not great for it, but it won't kill it. It's when you do it as a permanent solution that you will come upon some troubles.

I can't really tell how those systems you linked to are doing aside from a screen shot of WCPUID...which just shows that it worked long enough to get a screenie. I'm not saying that they aren't more than that, but I can't tell cause I can't read Japanese.
 

ol' man

Member
Joined
Aug 23, 2001
Thelemac said:
Perhaps I didn't word that properly. By not help you I meant something completley different. :)

What I meant to say is that going much below that will only increase the destruction rate of your cpu...because it's pulling away from itself. Short periods of time would be fine, not great for it, but it won't kill it. It's when you do it as a permanent solution that you will come upon some troubles.

I can't really tell how those systems you linked to are doing aside from a screen shot of WCPUID...which just shows that it worked long enough to get a screenie. I'm not saying that they aren't more than that, but I can't tell cause I can't read Japanese.


Doesn't the govt here in the US use LN2 cooled computers?

You know I just thought of something. If indeed computers cannot run well in cryo environments I wonder how on board computers in all the sattelites are doing. Isn't the temp in space on the darkside like close to absolute 0 or LN2 or L-Helium temps?

Probably why sattelites usually have very reflective surfaces on them;) I always though space would be the best place to have a computer cause you would have no moisture and cryo temps. Guess I am a dippy:D I am going to go stand in the corner:D
 
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Thelemac

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Mar 15, 2001
I don't actually know about the government...but if they do, they either are not letting them get too cold, have a different processor structure (special ordered), or they keep wondering why their computers are dieing all the time. :)

As for the sattelites...the problem there isn't them getting too cold, but cooling them off. We cool via convection..moving the air over a heatsink. There isn't air in space, so that's a bit difficult.

I'm actually kinda curious as to how they do that, now.

By the way, there is an old thread (maybe from around may or so) that had a rather long discussion about the feasibility of cooling in space.
 

ol' man

Member
Joined
Aug 23, 2001
Thelemac said:
I don't actually know about the government...but if they do, they either are not letting them get too cold, have a different processor structure (special ordered), or they keep wondering why their computers are dieing all the time. :)

As for the sattelites...the problem there isn't them getting too cold, but cooling them off. We cool via convection..moving the air over a heatsink. There isn't air in space, so that's a bit difficult.

I'm actually kinda curious as to how they do that, now.

By the way, there is an old thread (maybe from around may or so) that had a rather long discussion about the feasibility of cooling in space.

Well if what you are saying is true then to space walk on the dark side of the space shuttle one would only require a pair of shorts. Uh, I don't think so. It gets so cold in the shadow that A few seconds in it and you are done I guess. Not sure if you know this but heat does not need a medium to travel through, it is known as infared waves(photons or light particles) and that is the reason you must mirror your dewars, or vaccum flasks???????? Ever heard of that???????? That is the reason heat can travel through space from the sun and warm the earth.

WOW!

Next question?
 

ol' man

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Aug 23, 2001
ol' man said:


Well if what you are saying is true then to space walk on the dark side of the space shuttle one would only require a pair of shorts. Uh, I don't think so. It gets so cold in the shadow that A few seconds in it and you are done I guess. Not sure if you know this but heat does not need a medium to travel through, it is known as infared waves(photons or light particles) and that is the reason you must mirror your dewars, or vaccum flasks???????? Ever heard of that???????? That is the reason heat can travel through space from the sun and warm the earth.

WOW!

Next question?


Here is what they say about the moon. It is mostly a vacuum too just as space is.

Fact:
The Moon has almost no atmosphere, because of its weak gravity. All types of gas will escape from its surface. The surface temperature fluctuates from roughly + 300° F during the 2-week daytime to -270 F during the 2-week night. This is because there is not enough atmosphere to keep the Moon warm at night, nor protect it from the Sun's rays in the daytime.


-270 deg. F on the dark side of it:eek: That is cold! I would presume in space since it is a vacuum if one would use a mirrored vacuum insulated type enclosure it would help keep components cold or warm what ever is needed. I would assume they would want their instruments colder than warmer cause you know electricity has less resistance in a colder environment and in a sattelite keeping everything fed with electricity could become a problem if things got too hot. Have you not noticed how many sattelites have reflective coverings on them? I bet that is so they don' fluctuate too much in the internal components temperatures.
 

klosters64a

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Dec 17, 2000
Location
Seattle, Wa
The expensive models from Cray(what, the air-cooled ones are cheap?)use liquid cooling. Anyone know what fluids or compressed /super cooled gases are used?

I guess Intel already(nudge nudge, wink wink) has 3 Gig P-4's!
 

nihili

Inactive Doc Logic Philosophical Mod
Joined
Sep 9, 2001
Location
Pocatello, ID
ol' man said:


Well if what you are saying is true then to space walk on the dark side of the space shuttle one would only require a pair of shorts. Uh, I don't think so. It gets so cold in the shadow that A few seconds in it and you are done I guess. Not sure if you know this but heat does not need a medium to travel through, it is known as infared waves(photons or light particles) and that is the reason you must mirror your dewars, or vaccum flasks???????? Ever heard of that???????? That is the reason heat can travel through space from the sun and warm the earth.

WOW!

Next question?

This is confused.

Space is not magically cold. It's just a vacuum. Also, heat does not travel through space. You are correct that infra-red travels through space, but infra red is not heat. Normally that distinction isn't terribly important, but in this context it is.

In space heat is caused by infrared light striking an object. Infrared is easily converted to heat. But because you're in a vacuum, there is no heat carried by conduction or convection. On earth the most of the radiation doesn't make it to the ground. That's one of the wonderful things about our atmosphere. But if you were unprotected on the light side of the shuttle, you'd fry. WHen the infra-red from the sun struck your body, it would turn to heat. But because you are in a vacuum, your body has no way to get rid of the heat except via radiation. It turns out that while our bodies just aren't very good at creating the right sort of radiation. We do create some, but in normal situations most of our heat loss is due to convection and evaporation. So on the light side of the shuttle, you'd be taking in far more heat that you were giving off. Eventually you'd boil over, literally.

On the dark side of the shuttle there is the opposite problem. Your body is no longer taking in any radiation, so there's no source of heat. On earth, even in a completely dark spot, you can get heat by contact with the air and with objects. Also, the atmosphere distributes the sun's radiation so that even in a shadow you're getting some radiation. But on the dark side of the shuttle, you get no radiation, and you get no warmth via conduction or convection either. However, your body does continue to produce radiation. Since your body is losing heat via radiation, but not gaining any, your body will slowly cool until it reaches nearly absolute zero.

Were it not for the pressure problems, you'd last a lot longer on the dark side of the shuttle in your skivvies than you would in a vat of dry ice. This is because in space your only heat loss is through radiation. In dry ice you continue to lose heat via radiation, but you also lose it via conduction and convection. So you'll freeze faster in dry ice than in space. As far as heat loss goes, all you need is space is a thin foil suit that is extremely reflective on both sides.

nihili
 

Thelemac

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Thanks nihili...that's far more eloquent that what I would have written. :)

I just wanted to add that if you went out in just your shorts in space you would either boil or explode before you could feel the effects of heat or lack thereof. Just one of those effects of low pressure. :)
 

ol' man

Member
Joined
Aug 23, 2001
nihili said:


This is confused.

Space is not magically cold. It's just a vacuum. Also, heat does not travel through space. You are correct that infra-red travels through space, but infra red is not heat. Normally that distinction isn't terribly important, but in this context it is.

In space heat is caused by infrared light striking an object. Infrared is easily converted to heat. But because you're in a vacuum, there is no heat carried by conduction or convection. On earth the most of the radiation doesn't make it to the ground. That's one of the wonderful things about our atmosphere. But if you were unprotected on the light side of the shuttle, you'd fry. WHen the infra-red from the sun struck your body, it would turn to heat. But because you are in a vacuum, your body has no way to get rid of the heat except via radiation. It turns out that while our bodies just aren't very good at creating the right sort of radiation. We do create some, but in normal situations most of our heat loss is due to convection and evaporation. So on the light side of the shuttle, you'd be taking in far more heat that you were giving off. Eventually you'd boil over, literally.

On the dark side of the shuttle there is the opposite problem. Your body is no longer taking in any radiation, so there's no source of heat. On earth, even in a completely dark spot, you can get heat by contact with the air and with objects. Also, the atmosphere distributes the sun's radiation so that even in a shadow you're getting some radiation. But on the dark side of the shuttle, you get no radiation, and you get no warmth via conduction or convection either. However, your body does continue to produce radiation. Since your body is losing heat via radiation, but not gaining any, your body will slowly cool until it reaches nearly absolute zero.

Were it not for the pressure problems, you'd last a lot longer on the dark side of the shuttle in your skivvies than you would in a vat of dry ice. This is because in space your only heat loss is through radiation. In dry ice you continue to lose heat via radiation, but you also lose it via conduction and convection. So you'll freeze faster in dry ice than in space. As far as heat loss goes, all you need is space is a thin foil suit that is extremely reflective on both sides.

nihili

heat


Heat is the transfer of kinetic energy from one medium or object to another, or from an energy source to a medium or object. Such energy transfer can occur in three ways: radiation, conduction, and convection.
The standard unit of heat in the International System of Units (SI) is the calorie (cal), which is the amount of energy transfer required to raise the temperature of one gram of pure liquid water by one degree Celsius, provided the water temperature is higher than the freezing point and lower than the boiling point. Sometimes the kilocalorie (kcal) is specified as a unit of heat; 1 kcal = 1000 cal. (This is the so-called diet calorie.) Less often, the British thermal unit (Btu) is used. This is the amount of heat required to raise the temperature of one pound of pure liquid water by one degree Fahrenheit.

An example of heat by radiation is the effect of infrared (IR) energy as it strikes a surface. IR is an electromagnetic field capable of transfering energy from a source, such as a fireplace, to a destination, such as the surfaces within a room. Radiation does not require an intervening medium; it can occur through a vacuum. It is responsible for the warming of the Earth by the sun.

Heat by conduction takes place when two material media or objects are in direct contact, and the temperature of one is higher than the temperature of the other. The temperatures tend to equalize; thus the heat conduction consists of a transfer of kinetic energy from the warmer medium to the cooler one. An example is the immersion of a chilled human body in a hot bath.

Heat by convection occurs when the motion of a liquid or gas carries energy from a warmer region to a cooler region. A good example of convection is the tendency of warm air to rise and cool air to fall, equalizing the air temperature inside a room containing a hot stove. Heat convection (along with conduction) is believed to take place inside the Earth, transfering kinetic energy from the inner core through the outer core and mantle to the crust. In this situation, the outer core and the mantle behave like liquids over long periods of time.

http://whatis.techtarget.com/definition/0,,sid9_gci771825,00.html


I am not sure how confused I am. The only thing I possibly messed up a bit was when I misworded that heat does not need a medium to travel through. I guess its medium is a radiation photon known as the infared wave/particle whatever?????? Man you had to know what I was talking about! It is all just a transfering of energy into one form or the other right?


Back to matter at hand is that computers or electronics in general will not work at low temps. Maybe at absolute zero they won't but we can never really achieve this right. No matter how many pelts we stack I doubt at the other end it would ever achieve absolute zero.

I am going to go and look at what the cray super computers use. I will be back with specifics.
 

ol' man

Member
Joined
Aug 23, 2001
The Cray-1 series uses piped freon, and each board has a copper sheet to conduct heat to the edges of the cage, where freon lines draw it away. The first Cray-1 was in fact delayed six months due to problems in the cooling system: lubricant that is normally mixed with the freon to keep the compressor running would leak through the seals as a mist and eventually coat the boards with oil until they shorted out.
The Cray-2 is unique in that it uses a liquid bath to cool the processor boards. A special nonconductive liquid (flourinert) is pumped through the system and the chips are immersed in this.
Special fountains aerate the liquid, and reservoirs are provided for storing the liquid when it is pumped out for service. This is somewhat remeniscent of the oil cooling bath that was sometimes used in magnetic core memory units.

http://ed-thelen.org/comp-hist/vs-cray-res.html


Here is what is said about cooling computers with LN2

ETA produces first air- and liquid nitrogen-cooled versions of ETA-10 multiprocessor supercomputer.

Here is the website.

http://www.interesting-people.org/archives/interesting-people/199308/msg00125.html

I guess there are people using LN2 to cool there computers and they have been doing so it seems for more than 10 years. Going on 15 at least.


Another quote

From John Swensen The "big" ETA-10 was cooled in liquid nitrogen (not pressurized, so no steam problems), and I believe the nitrogen flow from the cryogenerator (big refrigerator) to and from the cryostat was high enough that boiling was not much of an issue. Niel [Lincoln] can tell some pretty funny stories about development in the labs, however, when some things did go wrong. The big machines had from two to 8 processors. Each circular tank held two processors, each with its own "toaster slot", filled with liquid N2 (the round cryostat without the processors or memory looked like a futuristic toaster).


http://ed-thelen.org/comp-hist/vs-eta.html
 

nihili

Inactive Doc Logic Philosophical Mod
Joined
Sep 9, 2001
Location
Pocatello, ID
ol' man said:




http://whatis.techtarget.com/definition/0,,sid9_gci771825,00.html


I am not sure how confused I am. The only thing I possibly messed up a bit was when I misworded that heat does not need a medium to travel through. I guess its medium is a radiation photon known as the infared wave/particle whatever?????? Man you had to know what I was talking about! It is all just a transfering of energy into one form or the other right?

ol' man,

I didn't mean to imply that you were confused, only that what you had written got things a bit jumbled up.

For example, you said "It gets so cold in the shadow that A few seconds in it and you are done I guess. " That implies that the problem is that it's cold in the shadow. But the coldness of space is actually no problem at all because space has no thermal mass. That was the point of my dry ice example. Space has a temperature near absolute zero. Normally we think that if something is cold, we will get cold by being in it. But this doesn't work in space. Discounting issues of pressure, if you could stop the radiation from your body, you could stay warm nearly indefinitely in space, even in the shadow of the moon. This is because space has no thermal mass.

Btw, the definition of heat that you quote is also a bit off. Heat is not the *transfer* of kinetic energy. Again this may seem like a minor error, but in the context of a discussion of thermodynamics in a vacuum, it's an important one.

nihili
 

ol' man

Member
Joined
Aug 23, 2001
More

HISTORICAL PERSPECTIVE ON COMPUTER COOLING
Low-temperature operation has historically been a holy grail for high-performance computing3. Many attempts have been made in the past, with no sustained commercial success. IBM and Carrier Corp. collaborated on a computer cooling system using Stirling technology in the early 1980s4, but the refrigerator proved too cumbersome. The ETA-10 was a true cryogenic computer, utilizing liquid nitrogen (77 Kelvin) for cooling5. However, liquid nitrogen-cooled computers are no longer commercial. RSFQ superconducting circuits operated at liquid helium temperature (4 to 5 Kelvin) show promise and are presently at the early development stage6.


http://www.igc.com/energytech/superpower/sp_rd/cec1999.htm

I guess in fact they are finding that colder temps are better for computing. Like we didn't know that though right;)

When I had my celery @ 1840 MHz it was not on air:eek:
 
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