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Help me pick out some SMP parts.....

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AmigoThree

Member
Joined
Aug 12, 2002
Location
Gettysburg, PA
I need to build a dually sometime before the end of june. I will have 400 bucks to spend and I need to know what is the best to get.

I have.....

Hard drive
Video card
Power supply (if a 350 watt sparkle would be enough, if not add power in)
Case
Aopen DX-34+ Motherboard (if you think it would be better not to use this, consider it sold for 50 bucks and add 50 bucks to available money)

So what do you think would be the best buy for me. I want atleast a gig of ram. Processor speed, whatever I can get. And motherboard, whatever you think is best. Onboard LAN would be helpful, gigabit would be even better, but I can always add that later.

The functions of this dually would be a game server and file server. It would do other server type things, but probably little if any graphics or video encoding.

So what do you think I should get?
 

dustybyrd

Senior Member
Joined
Jan 31, 2003
Location
San Francisco, CA
get an msi k7d mobo
two 1700xp's that will have to be modded to run dual
the 350 watt sparkle will be fine
ram: cosair or something pc3200+ 512mb x2

cost<$400
 

cmcquistion

IT Director Senior
Joined
Oct 15, 2001
Location
Tennessee
That 350 Watt Sparkle is NOT going to be enough for an AMD dually. (It would be sufficient for an Intel dually, but not an AMD, trust me...) Invest in a halfway decent 500 watt or better PSU.

Second, Samsung Registered ECC PC2700 is absolutely fantastic and is CHEAPER than Crucial Registered ECC PC2100. In a couple years, if you decide to upgrade to a Hammer system, you'll be able to use those sticks of Registered ECC PC2700 again. You can run this stuff at 150 FSB (the max FSB the motherboard supports) and very aggressive timings.

So, here's the list:

MSI K7D Master-L -> $195 (has onboard "Intel" Network card) $182 for non-network version
two Athlon XP1700's -> $84 (mod these for SMP and 13X)
550 Watt PSU -> $37
(I have used this PSU in several AMD duallies. It is the best, cheap PSU you can get for this kind of system.)
512 MB Samsung Registered ECC PC2700 -> $83
Two decent heatsink (SK-7's work well) -> $20
 
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dustybyrd

Senior Member
Joined
Jan 31, 2003
Location
San Francisco, CA
That 350 Watt Sparkle is NOT going to be enough for an AMD dually. (It would be sufficient for an Intel dually, but not an AMD, trust me...) Invest in a halfway decent 500 watt or better PSU.


i think the 350watt sparkle might work...but if you want more power you should go with the 530 watt fortron/sparkle for $70 at www.newegg.com

that is the most power available for that kind of money anywhere

i have both power supplies and both worked fine on my dual p3-s [email protected] machine with lots and lots of other power requirements...see 1st comp in sig...
 

cmcquistion

IT Director Senior
Joined
Oct 15, 2001
Location
Tennessee
dustybyrd said:



i think the 350watt sparkle might work...but if you want more power you should go with the 530 watt fortron/sparkle for $70 at www.newegg.com

That is, probably, a better Power Supply. Fortron/Sparkle are known for good PSU's and that is a fairly good price.
 
OP
AmigoThree

AmigoThree

Member
Joined
Aug 12, 2002
Location
Gettysburg, PA
Well I may also sell some parts out of a 1600+ system I have now. That would give me 200 extra dollars. Assuming I had 200 more dollars what would be the first things to upgrade?

I dont really want to sell that system though because it was the first thing that I ever built which was about a year and a half ago. Or I could always get a real job like some people would.....

But anyway, back to the 200 dollar thing, for 200 dollars more are there any huge upgrades I could make or do you think I should hold on to this extra system.
 

FunkDaMonkMan

Member
Joined
Dec 31, 2001
the fastest ram you should get is pc2700. Anything over that is useless because the the highest fsb setting on the k7d is 150mhz.
 

dustybyrd

Senior Member
Joined
Jan 31, 2003
Location
San Francisco, CA
the fastest ram you should get is pc2700. Anything over that is useless because the the highest fsb setting on the k7d is 150mhz.

i would agree with that...but say he wanted to upgrade later...the pc3200+ ddr might still be ok...

also the pc3200+ ram is not that much more than pc2700 anyway
 

cmcquistion

IT Director Senior
Joined
Oct 15, 2001
Location
Tennessee
dustybyrd said:


i would agree with that...but say he wanted to upgrade later...the pc3200+ ddr might still be ok...

also the pc3200+ ram is not that much more than pc2700 anyway

Yes, but Registered PC2700 can be used on Hammer systems, down the road. No one makes Registered PC3200, as far as I know, so that is why I suggest the Registered PC2700.
 

dustybyrd

Senior Member
Joined
Jan 31, 2003
Location
San Francisco, CA


Yes, but Registered PC2700 can be used on Hammer systems, down the road. No one makes Registered PC3200, as far as I know, so that is why I suggest the Registered PC2700.


oh, i see.

i noticed that you said you have registered ram, but don't use the ECC...why get it then?

what are the chances of making an error that crashes the system or program with/without ECC?

if you get really fast RAM and run it at slower speeds is it more likely to make fewer errors even without ECC?

i am not using ECC in my duallie and i'm not sure if it has mattered yet at all...the only problems i had were when i overclocked the PCI over 154 mhz the hard drives had errors...
 

cmcquistion

IT Director Senior
Joined
Oct 15, 2001
Location
Tennessee
dustybyrd said:



oh, i see.

i noticed that you said you have registered ram, but don't use the ECC...why get it then?

what are the chances of making an error that crashes the system or program with/without ECC?

if you get really fast RAM and run it at slower speeds is it more likely to make fewer errors even without ECC?

i am not using ECC in my duallie and i'm not sure if it has mattered yet at all...the only problems i had were when i overclocked the PCI over 154 mhz the hard drives had errors...

Registered Memory is required for AMD duallies, if you ever want to upgrade to more than two sticks of RAM. (99% of Registered memory is also ECC. I don't use ECC, because I don't really need it and it slows down the system a little bit.) It is supposed to be more stable, too, although I haven't seen in personal experience that it is more or less stable than unbuffered memory. My main reason for getting it is twofold. First, if you ever want to upgrade to more than two sticks on an AMD 760MPX chipset, then you have to use ALL Registered memory. Secondly, the Hammer chipsets that support dual DDR, REQUIRE Registered memory. That's different from today's chipset. Today's chipset will run up to two sticks of unbuffered. The Hammer chipset (from what I have seen) will REQUIRE ONLY Registered memory.

It may be a year or two before I get a Hammer system (if I ever get one), but I figured that if I was going to shell out a lot of money for memory, I would try to make it last a long time. If I could re-use it in my next system, that would be great.

There is a difference between "Registered" and "ECC". In a nutshell, Registered just means that the memory is buffered. Buffered, as opposed to unbuffered. This buffer helps increase stability (at a slight performance cost.) It is suggested for all AMD dual boards and quite a few Intel duallies, too. ECC means "Error Checking and Correction" or something similar to that (I may not have the exact names right, but that is the gist of it.) ECC is important for file servers and such, where there are tons and tons of files going through the memory all day long, from different places, sometimes coming from or going to other systems. The ECC can detect and correct small error in data (parity errors and such.) It can't fix BIG problems, but it can fix little ones. There is a performance hit to this process, too. It is suggested, by most, that you only need to enable ECC if you are running a critical file server or similar. My duals at home both run with ECC off (one is running Registered ECC PC2700, the other runs cheaper Unbuffered PC2700.) My AMD dually file server at work has ECC turned on. For that machine, local performance is not as important as the integrity of the files coming in and out on the network. (I don't think ECC affects my network traffic that much since the bandwidth isn't that high, but it does affect local performance of the computer, ie. tasks that I run on it, like opening apps, etc.)

Anyway, if you are still interested in what Registered and ECC is all about, I'm sure that there are numerous very good, and more technically-complete, descriptions than what I have just given.

There is my two cents... (a very, very, long two cents...)
 

dustybyrd

Senior Member
Joined
Jan 31, 2003
Location
San Francisco, CA
cmcquistion said:
That 350 Watt Sparkle is NOT going to be enough for an AMD dually. (It would be sufficient for an Intel dually, but not an AMD, trust me...) Invest in a halfway decent 500 watt or better PSU.



also...thanks for the info on the ECC and registered RAM...

check this post out from 2cpu.com on what a 350 watt fortron power supply can power...2 AMD MP's and all those scsi's

http://forums.2cpu.com/showthread.php?threadid=30735&highlight=fortron+350

"Now just how much power draw can a pile of RAM put on a system? One of my duallie rigs run 1 GB, with eight SCSI devices, all on a 350 watt Fortron Source (the same company that makes Sparkle / SPI power supplys) PSU. I've never had a hiccup. I have another five of these suuplies, plus a 300 watt version and another 250 watt version, running in systems 24/7 for 3+ years with a zero failure rate. The only problem is they're LOUD."
 
OP
AmigoThree

AmigoThree

Member
Joined
Aug 12, 2002
Location
Gettysburg, PA
Well that was good to hear about the sparkle. I guess I will get the power supply later if needed. This would mean I can buy another stick of 512mb PC3200 for my P4 :D
 
OP
AmigoThree

AmigoThree

Member
Joined
Aug 12, 2002
Location
Gettysburg, PA
Would it be worth it going to 2400+? Because really a retail 2400+ is the same price as the 1700+ with the expensive heatsinks, the I just wouldnt OC it. Or is there some other reason you recommend the 1700? Can the 2400+'s even be unlocked for SMP?
 

dustybyrd

Senior Member
Joined
Jan 31, 2003
Location
San Francisco, CA
Would it be worth it going to 2400+? Because really a retail 2400+ is the same price as the 1700+ with the expensive heatsinks, the I just wouldnt OC it. Or is there some other reason you recommend the 1700? Can the 2400+'s even be unlocked for SMP?


that's a good point...but no fun without overclocking and also the front side bus would be a lot slower and thus your machine would be slower...
 

cmcquistion

IT Director Senior
Joined
Oct 15, 2001
Location
Tennessee
dustybyrd said:
check this post out from 2cpu.com on what a 350 watt fortron power supply can power...2 AMD MP's and all those scsi's

http://forums.2cpu.com/showthread.php?threadid=30735&highlight=fortron+350

"Now just how much power draw can a pile of RAM put on a system? One of my duallie rigs run 1 GB, with eight SCSI devices, all on a 350 watt Fortron Source (the same company that makes Sparkle / SPI power supplys) PSU. I've never had a hiccup. I have another five of these suuplies, plus a 300 watt version and another 250 watt version, running in systems 24/7 for 3+ years with a zero failure rate. The only problem is they're LOUD."

That post does NOT say that he is running an AMD dually. It just says that it is a dually. It might be an Intel dually for all I know.

AmigoThree said:
Would it be worth it going to 2400+? Because really a retail 2400+ is the same price as the 1700+ with the expensive heatsinks, the I just wouldnt OC it. Or is there some other reason you recommend the 1700? Can the 2400+'s even be unlocked for SMP?

If you've got the money and are willing to spend it, then I say, go for it.

The chips can be modified for SMP exactly like all other Athlons. It also has the standard 266 FSB, so that won't be an issue. You can still overclock the FSB, if you like. You probably won't get as much overclocking out of the 2400+ then you would out of the 1700+, but the overall speed would be faster.

What I mean by that is that the average overclock for XP1700 T-breds is 2116 MHz, but the average overclock for XP2400 T-breds is 2358 MHz.
 
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dustybyrd

Senior Member
Joined
Jan 31, 2003
Location
San Francisco, CA
[


That post does NOT say that he is running an AMD dually. It just says that it is a dually. It might be an Intel dually for all I know.




:p you're good...i wondered if you would notice...anyway...i have pm'd him about what cpu's he's using in dual...but i think they are athlon mp's based his user name which is "Modeling colliding MPs"

but you're right that he doesn't say which chips he's running...


i still think a 350 watt fortron would stablely power any amd duallie with normal other components...because tomshardware tested it at 454 watts max...and because it is rated 350 watts at 70% load...

and i bet that compusa 500 watt supply maxes around 430 or so...

also...i went to the 2cpu power supply forum and noticed many people running dual AMD's on the enermax 465 model (which they said has a 430 watt max---which is likely to be right on because enermax supplies don't underrate their power and tomshardware tested a 365 model at about 350 watts max)....

so if a 430 enermax can power an AMD dual then i'm quite sure a 350 watt fortron (@70% load @100% 454 watts) would do just fine...
 

cmcquistion

IT Director Senior
Joined
Oct 15, 2001
Location
Tennessee
I have seen a lot of problem posts, however, from people trying to run a dual AMD setup on a 350-400-430 watt PSU.

Occasionally, someone else will say "Hey, I've got a dually that runs just fine off a 400 watt PSU." Most of the time, however, these people's problems dissappear once they get a high wattage PSU. Most dual AMD system owners will agree that a high wattage PSU is REQUIRED for a stable dual AMD setup. Some won't, but I believe most will. Maybe one of these days, I'll figure out how to post a poll and I'll put together an effective poll to show this.
 

dustybyrd

Senior Member
Joined
Jan 31, 2003
Location
San Francisco, CA
it should be fine, right now i have the following running off of the enermax 465 (430 watts i think)
tyan MPX s2466n
dual MP 2100
1> scsi DVD player(toshiba)
1> 40x Plextor CD-rw (scsi black)
5> IBM Fast/Wide, SCA-2 (80pin) scsi 18.2 gig HDS (raid 5)
1> Asus GF4 ti 4200
4> 90mm enermax Fans @ 7volts
2> stock AMD MP heat sinks


i hope this helps
__________________
[/B]

this is a quote from Dagamore...who i think is in these forums as well...

but how do we make a poll anyway?
 
OP
AmigoThree

AmigoThree

Member
Joined
Aug 12, 2002
Location
Gettysburg, PA
I guess some people get lucky and get some really good 350 watt PSUs. My friend has a 350 watt antec and has

4 IDE hard drives
3 CD-RW drives
1 DVD drive
Athlon 2100+ OCed
Tv Tuner card
512mb ram with thermaltake active cooling
4 fans
2 UV lights
Raedon 9000 Pro OCed
Floppy drive
Flash memory card reader

all being powered by this. Most people would think that this would max it out (I mean what normal person has 4 optical drives) but apparently it hasnt yet. I guess I can give this drive a chance and see what it can do.