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HexaCore Restoration Project underway (AMD Phenom II 970 Zosma) *Pending 960T*

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storm-chaser

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Location
Upstate NY
HexaCore Restoration Project underway -- AMD Phenom II Zosma *960T has arrived*

*960T has arrived see page 5 for details!


I've had this AMD Phenom II 970 Zosma based processor shelved for a couple years now, just waiting for the right time to bring it back to life. I've been slowly collecting parts for this build. A power supply here, a CPU cooler there. Here is the particular CPU we will be working with - I purchased this gem new on eBay back in 2011. I've had it delidded and polished for better cooling characteristics. It's clear I've got a few bent pins to fix, should have protected it better but oh well:
10.jpg
12.jpg

The original build consisted of a Biostar TA880GU3+ mobo which eventually gave up the ghost after running a solid 4Ghz x6 around the clock for nearly 6 years. This motherboard was only rated at 125W maximum and I'm sure I was well beyond that! Nevertheless, it was a great little board while it lasted.
ta880gu3.jpg

So I started browsing for a replacement motherboard last week and I came across the slightly newer and higher rated Biostar TA970 (I like Biostar but this will be my first go with the AMD 970 chipset). This is an AM3+ socket that supports up to a 140W CPU and has some additional upgrades that will help me make the most out of this old AMD 970 Phenom II processor. I purchased a used Biostar TA970+ on eBay for $60 (and that includes an unlocked B75 Phenom II CPU - should be arriving early next week:
TA970.jpg

For starters, it supports ACC which will allow me to unlock this 970 Zosma into the beast that it was destined to become. Theoretically, I should be able to unlock all six cores which will result in a 1705T hexacore CPU running @ 3.5Ghz. I'm hoping to get a stable 4.0Ghz overclock with a CPU-NB speed of 3.0Ghz. Bumping up the CPU-NB is a great way to improve memory throughput and performance. In the memory department I am hoping to OC to 2000Mhz, but unfortunately I only have 1600Mhz modules to work with at the moment (updated with picture of actual RAM):
IMG_20180506_212618066.jpg

In regards to the power supply, I have this like new Thermaltake TR 2 RX-550 that I actually found in a throw-away HP Pavilion 531. Someone had upgraded the PS and then shortly thereafter, chucked the whole thing due to some bad capacitors on the mobo.
3.jpg

EDIT: After learning of updated info regarding the rated vs real output of the RX-550 I will be proceeding instead with an Antec NeoPower 650w PS (thanks Mr. Scott) Although I will be testing the rig with both PSUs:
IMG_20180506_180728355.jpg
For the case, I have chosen to use my old CoolerMaster Silent full size ATX. This case is pretty cool because it has sound deadening material to mitigate extra noise. Although, knowing me, I will probably have the side off the case most of the time :) Also threw a couple DVD burners in for good measure:
IMG_20180505_193315608.jpg
2.jpg
Added an additional 120mm fan...
6.jpg
Gotta get rid of those Intel stickers...
7.jpg
IMG_20180506_181700603.jpg

As for the CPU cooler, we are going with a like new CoolerMaster Hyper212 EVO. This should be sufficient for speeds of 4.0Ghz...
Hyper212.jpg

I will try to update this thread next week once the new motherboard arrives. Can't wait to be running on my Phenom II 970 again!
 
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Mr.Scott

Beamed Me Up!
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Jun 9, 2013
Couple thoughts here:

1) No guaranty on a full 6 core unlock
2) No guaranty on 4 gig on the unlock
3) TR2 PSU's are way over rated. I wouldn't lean on it too hard.

I will elaborate on the unlock a little. All chipsets do not unlock the same way. What unlocks on one may not unlock on another and vice versa.

Subbed for results. :)
I have a 960T that benches at 4.4 on all 6.
 
OP
storm-chaser

storm-chaser

Disabled
Joined
Sep 2, 2011
Location
Upstate NY
Couple thoughts here:

1) No guaranty on a full 6 core unlock
2) No guaranty on 4 gig on the unlock
3) TR2 PSU's are way over rated. I wouldn't lean on it too hard.

I will elaborate on the unlock a little. All chipsets do not unlock the same way. What unlocks on one may not unlock on another and vice versa.

Subbed for results. :)
I have a 960T that benches at 4.4 on all 6.
Well, in life you have to learn there is always something or someone better ;)
As for the unlock, I think knowing that this motherboard supports the ACC feature and that the CPU in question has been unlocked by both the 760 and 880 chipset in prior motherboards we can conclude with some certainty that this is somewhat better than flying blind. If per chance the motherboard does not support an unlock, I will re-sell it and find another Biostar TA880 series board. But I can say with out a doubt the only way we will complete this project is when all six cores are running at 4.0Ghz or better. Who knows, maybe with this 970 series motherboard I will get 4.5Ghz across all 6 cores. Only time will tell!
 
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Mr.Scott

Beamed Me Up!
Joined
Jun 9, 2013
Oh, I agree.
That's why I'm subbed.
I'm not a Biostar aficionado, but I do have a 880 board that I've never run.
Never too old to maybe learn something. :)
 

Reefa_Madness

DRAM Guru Senior
Joined
Feb 26, 2004
In the memory department I am hoping to OC to 2000Mhz, but unfortunately I only have 1600Mhz modules to work with at the moment:

If those are your actual modules in the picture, and not a stock photo, then you will probably be alright, or at least it shouldn't be the memory keeping you from hitting DDR3-2000 clocks.

GSKill uses a numerical code within the Serial Number (on the module's label) to identify the manufacturer of the memory chips under the hood. The pictured modules have S/N starting with 1102 (production date of 2011 / week 02), followed by "024". That code indicates Hynix based modules and when combine with the early 2011 production date you can be reasonable sure that they are using H9C BFR. Towards late 2011 Hynix CFR became widely used so there was a while that it was a bit of a guessing game as to which ICs were being used, but early 2011 date eliminates the uncertainty.

If your modules are not the ones pictured, the following links will help you identify the chips as well as provide you with the attributes of the memory chips used.

GSKill coding:
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?283666-Figuring-out-G-Skill-s-SNs

Memory chips attributes and OC capabilities:
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?285767-DDR3-IC-thread
 
OP
storm-chaser

storm-chaser

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Location
Upstate NY
Reefa_Madness: Thank you for posting such valuable information. I had no idea this information was consolidated and readily available to the consumer. In point of fact, those are not the actual memory modules I will be using. But I went ahead and updated the original post with a picture of exact memory modules in my possession. Turns out the true serial # is nearly identical at: 11070240013568, so as far as I can tell still falls under the "early 2011" build date as well as Hynix based modules denoted by the "0240" portion of the SN. I looked these up with the links you provided and this is what I am getting:

2Gbit BFR H5TQ2G83BFR:
How does it overclock:
For fixed CL value, MHz/volt dependancy is just under linear. tRCD and tRP don't scale too well from voltage, 1.35 to 1.75V won't bring you more than 50MHz.
Don't seem to support stability much above 1200MHz even on high-rated mems. tRCD is best kept one value above tRP.
Quality varies, at 1.65V average samples will do 800MHz 7-8-7 and 1066MHz 9-11-10 while top stuff will do 1200MHz 9-11-10.

Question: Seeing the chips in my hand I can definitely tell they are double sided. What is this H9C # you referenced in your original posting?
So I gather I should be able to run these at 1066Mhz at timings of 9-11-10 ??? Then what? I am assuming I can work backwards now and see how other people have timed these modules when overclocked?
 

Reefa_Madness

DRAM Guru Senior
Joined
Feb 26, 2004
I need to apologize, as I actually typed that info backwards in my first post. That suffix you asked about identifies the OEM bin for the chips.

Those chips should be BFR H9C (a DDR3-1333 C9 part). There is also a CFR H9C (also a DDR3-1333 C9 part) which are the ones that started showing up towards the latter part of 2011, then these were followed by CFR PBC (a DDR3-1600 C11 part). The latter is what was used on the higher end modules such as those binned at DDR3-2666. The last letter of the H9x and the PBx was used to distinguish various revisions, but I've never seen any other than the "C" variant, which is why I typed it that way (out of habit).

The links below are to the Hynix Data Sheets.

for BFR:
https://www.skhynix.com/eolproducts.view.do?pronm=DDR3+SDRAM&srnm=HMT325U6BFR8C&rk=20&rc=module

for CFR:
https://www.skhynix.com/eolproducts.view.do?pronm=DDR3+SDRAM&srnm=HMT325U6CFR8C&rk=20&rc=module

Edit:
As to whether you will be able to achieve those clocks also depends on such things as the CPU's memory controller and the motherboard, but the memory chips in those DDR3-1600 CL7 GSkills should be capable. You are just going to have to work your way up and see how far you can take them.
 
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OP
storm-chaser

storm-chaser

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So technically, since I have the 4GB G.skill chips, these would be considered Hynix p/n: HMT351U6BFR8C...

Does that mean I am out of luck for overclocking this ram as mentioned at the speed of 1066Mhz? According to the link you provided, they should at least be able to run that speed...

EDIT: I also have an 8GB kit (4gb x2) of Corsair XMS3
CMX4Gx3M1A1600C6
7-8-7-20 1.65v ver 5.11

After some initial research it appears both kits use the same Hynix BFR memory! lol I guess that means we are going to overclock one pair OR just use both kits at stockish settings for a 16GB total package. haha!

Double Edit:
After some digging, I found another Corsair XMS3 memory kit....
This time, the model is: CMX4GX3M2A1600C7
7-8-7-20 1.65v ver7.1
According to your chart, these are listed as 1GBit X-series:

How does it overclock:
tCL: Linear scaling from voltage (i.e. 1000 7-x-x at 1.50V, 1100 7-x-x at 1.65V and so on) up to 1.90-1.95V on air.
tRCD: Only scales from temperature at around 1.0-1.2MHz per each degree centigrate. Typical limits at normal ambients are 1000-1066MHz tRCD 9, 1150-1200MHz tRCD 10 and 1250-1300MHz tRCD 11.
tRP: Can usually run same value as CAS, but some kits might require it raised by one or two values. This will get worse as memory frequency increases.
tRAS: Base value would be 28 for 1200-1333MHz on air cooling. Might need to be further raised by two values each ~50MHz.
Quality varies, from kits that can do 1300MHz 7-11-7 (tWCL8) under 1.75V to ones that won't do 1200MHz 7-11-10 (tWCL8) with any voltage.

Tips:
Lowering tWCL from 8 to 6 requires voltage bump similar to dropping CAS by one value, i.e. CL8+tWCL6 runs close on voltage to CL7+tWCL8, CL7+tWCL6 runs close on voltage to CL6+tWCL8. Therefore, people usually confuse/underestimate CL7+tWCL6 runs for CL7+tWCL8 runs which are about 15% apart in terms of stable voltage.
When running 1333MHz+ on Haswell, some kits experience so-called frequency-dependant voltage holes. For example, a kit can run settings X at 1.78-1.80V and 1.85V+ all day long but 1.81-1.84 will have severe stability issues for no apparent reason.

Binning criteria:
1) MHz/volt relation using CL6(tWCL8) and CL7(tWCL8). Interesting kits start from under 1.7V for 1200MHz CL7. Good kits start from under 1.65V for 1200MHz CL7 and under 1.85V for 1200MHz CL6. To put things into perspective, 1.65V for 1200MHz CL7 tWCL8 with linear scaling would imply ~1.83V for 1333MHz CL7 tWCL8 so same kit should be expected to run 1333MHz CL8 tWCL6 with moderately tight subtimings around 1.85V.
2) tRCD limits. Good kits can at least boot 1200MHz tRCD 10 and 1300MHz tRCD 11 at normal ambients.
3) Capability of running tRP same as CL throughout the whole stable frequency range between 1100 and 1350MHz.
 
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OP
storm-chaser

storm-chaser

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Joined
Sep 2, 2011
Location
Upstate NY
Oh, I agree.
That's why I'm subbed.
I'm not a Biostar aficionado, but I do have a 880 board that I've never run.
Never too old to maybe learn something. :)

My last reply was only half serious. I highly doubt my chip can reach more than 4.2GHz without some form of liquid cooling, no matter what mobo I'm running. But out of curiosity, what mobo and cooler are you running with your 960T? I want to keep all my options open especially if you've had improved success with one particular motherboard over another, this would be great information, especially if the unlock doesn't take with this 970 based mobo.
 

Reefa_Madness

DRAM Guru Senior
Joined
Feb 26, 2004
So technically, since I have the 4GB G.skill chips, these would be considered Hynix p/n: HMT351U6BFR8C...

Does that mean I am out of luck for overclocking this ram as mentioned at the speed of 1066Mhz? According to the link you provided, they should at least be able to run that speed...

Not quite...the individual memory chips are 2 Gbit, while the module, made up of 8 chips on each side are 4GB (gigabytes). It is easy to get confused about the density of the individual chips vs the density / capacity of the entire module, however, if you read the first quote near the beginning of the opening post of the second link I provided, it explains it.

I've copied it below:

Density is one of the most important aspects of each individual IC.
It is usually measured in Gbit (gigabit) and represents the size of each memory chip that is on the module.
For example, if a particular IC has 1Gbit density then it takes 8 chips of 128MB (=1Gbit) each to build a 1GB module and 16 chips to build a 2GB module.
Known densities for DDR3 are: 512Mbit, 1Gbit, 2Gbit, 4Gbit. There are no desktop modules with IC density above 4Gbit and never will be.

Since the individual Hynix chips used in your kit have a density of 2Gbit each, then continuing the logic from the above quote, it would take 8 chips to make a single-sided 2GB module, or 16 chips to produce a double-sided 4GB module such as the ones you have. The 2x8GB kits of DDR3 that you see on the market are the ones that are produced using the chips with a density of 4Gbit.

Does that help any?

Edit:

Forgot about the Corsair.

Those may, or may not be X-series PSC. Note that it states "Some Corsair ver7.1 modules". Like GSkill, Corsair also used the R & T series PSC chips in their modules. The Corsair modules also have a batch number on their module's label and the first 4 digits represent the production date. At some point they all started saving the X series chips for the higher binned modules so without testing the modules it becomes a guessing game as to which PSC series chips were used to build it. I would say that like GSKill, the late 2009 / early 2010 dated modules from Corsair coded "ver7.1" are the most likely to be using X series.
 
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OP
storm-chaser

storm-chaser

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Location
Upstate NY
Yes your response clears up any remaining confusion, and I'm beginning to understand memory density versus capacity. Hey thanks again for helping me work through this! I will definitely take what I've learned back to the table in future builds. This opens up a whole new world of memory-centric overclocking, something I've always been an advocate for. And now with the information you've provided we can get more granular and more specific in our overclocking approach. I like your style buddy!

Also what programs would one use to track down or obtain detailed IC memory chip information? I can't recall being able to pull that sort of data from CPU-Z? What about AIDA64?
 

Reefa_Madness

DRAM Guru Senior
Joined
Feb 26, 2004
Glad you've found the links useful.

Those two are the result of a lot of hard work by others and along with this next one, are among the best source for IC identification that I know of. The first one is a (long) thread where people have pulled spreaders off their modules and provided pics of the ICs.

http://i4memory.com/showthread.php?t=8426

There is also a database of known ICs for DDR / DDR2 / DDR3 / DDR4 tied in to the link below, but the last few times I checked, the database was down and it is still down, so I don't know if it will ever be active again. You can find archived copies by posting the URLs listed in post #503 of the above thread (linked below) in the search box of the web archive (also linked below).

Web Archive:
https://archive.org/

URLs:
http://i4memory.com/showpost.php?p=180974&postcount=503

Also look at the link below for a recap of where to find info on how to identify chips from some of the other ram players. Again, this is nothing but a recap of the work done by others. I'm more along the line of a librarian...I can point you to where you can probably find what you're looking for.

http://www.overclockers.com/forums/showthread.php/755487-DDR3-Memory-Chip-Information-Sources

I haven't ventured, or to be honest, even remotely followed DDR4, so anything beyond DDR3 is beyond me. :screwy:

Lastly, other than the Memory Tab of CPU-Z (and similar) which tell you the manufacturer & OEM bin of the modules, I don't know of any program that can identify the exact memory chips used in a module (hence the IC submissions and database efforts). The manufacturers' data sheets are also useful because you can get info on the size of the ICs which can help identify them if they have been re-labeled by the likes of GSKill / Kingston, etc with their own logos and numbering scheme. It is often a process of elimination, looking at production dates, OEM binning, IC dimmensions and other tidbits in order to arrive at your best guess as to what you're working with.
 

Alaric

New Member
Joined
Dec 4, 2011
Location
Satan's Colon, US
Subbed. Very subbed. Since I'm putting together a rig of that vintage for benching and may have a line on a Thuban, I'm going to be going over this thread with a fine toothed comb. :thup:
 

Blaylock

"That Backfired" Senior Member
Joined
Jun 5, 2013
Location
Go Blue!
I have an old 1090T that's still chugging along as an overflow gamer. I'll sub for the classics.
 

Mr.Scott

Beamed Me Up!
Joined
Jun 9, 2013
My last reply was only half serious. I highly doubt my chip can reach more than 4.2GHz without some form of liquid cooling, no matter what mobo I'm running. But out of curiosity, what mobo and cooler are you running with your 960T? I want to keep all my options open especially if you've had improved success with one particular motherboard over another, this would be great information, especially if the unlock doesn't take with this 970 based mobo.

Ran it in two different boards.
Gigabyte 890FXA-UD5 and Asus 990FX Sabertooth. Both on ambient water.
Air on both boards limited me to 4.1-4.2.

- - - Updated - - -

Lastly, other than the Memory Tab of CPU-Z (and similar) which tell you the manufacturer & OEM bin of the modules, I don't know of any program that can identify the exact memory chips used in a module (hence the IC submissions and database efforts). The manufacturers' data sheets are also useful because you can get info on the size of the ICs which can help identify them if they have been re-labeled by the likes of GSKill / Kingston, etc with their own logos and numbering scheme. It is often a process of elimination, looking at production dates, OEM binning, IC dimmensions and other tidbits in order to arrive at your best guess as to what you're working with.

Typhoon Burner ;)
 

Reefa_Madness

DRAM Guru Senior
Joined
Feb 26, 2004
Really, Typhoon Burner can identify the memory chips?

I bet that over the years I have thought about buying that program at least a dozen times so that I could make dumps of some of the better sticks that I have, but for one reason, or another, never did. The 13th time might just be the one. :D
 

Mr.Scott

Beamed Me Up!
Joined
Jun 9, 2013
Really, Typhoon Burner can identify the memory chips?

I bet that over the years I have thought about buying that program at least a dozen times so that I could make dumps of some of the better sticks that I have, but for one reason, or another, never did. The 13th time might just be the one. :D

You can still dump in the free version. Only thing that doesn't work is the write function. You need the paid version for that.
Sample off the machine I'm working on right now.

untitled.JPG

untitled.JPG
 
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Reefa_Madness

DRAM Guru Senior
Joined
Feb 26, 2004
That's very welcomed information :clap: ...although it does take away all the fun of the guessing game. :-/

All kidding aside, really appreciate your sharing the info and those screen shots.