HWbot - E.S. poll

[Bobnova]

Personally, i think "skill" isn't the right name for it.
What they are very good at is going through each setting and each combination of settings and testing them, it's the scientific method applied to overclocking.
Call it knowledge, and you'll be much closer to the truth of it.

Anybody can do it, it's not hard, it's time consuming.

Give me, or many of the other OCF people, the same hardware and i'd bet that our scores are very close to the top people.


Don't get me wrong, i love overclocking, but the only skill involved is in holding the temps. Everything else is knowledge.

 

[I.M.O.G.]

I think the scientific method part is true, and I agree with you a lot.

I also believe many people are not as experienced with applying the methods and tweaks as many more experienced top benchmarkers are.

Due to that lack of experience, many people lack the skill (A skill is the learned capacity to carry out pre-determined results often with the minimum outlay of time, energy, or both) other top tier overclockers already have as a result of their increased experience.

From what I've seen observing you guys, and from what I've read from the input some PURE/OCF guys have offered, these are the distilled ingredients to being a good benchmarker:

1. Knowing how to beat the hardware (settings, cooling, hard mods)
2. Knowing how to tweak the OS (version/stripped/optimized)
3. Knowing how to tweak the benchmark (drivers/fresh boot/team secrets)

The culmination of the knowledge required to put those 3 pieces together and how they all fit with minimal research and time input is a skill only the most experienced benchmarkers possess, and something I see a lot of people sharing their experience within the benching lounge. So if we want to call it skill, I think this seems appropriate in this perspective - calling it an ability to follow structured procedures and methods also works, but doing so requires knowledge and an aptitude for discipline and detail. I think this is part of what Deanzo was trying to help with through constructive criticism in the blackbook thread. So I guess the skill involved just determines how quickly and consistently you can apply the knowledge.

I agree with you and you are right that there are hardware advantages at play also when someone has either the money or the sponsorship to churn through many hardware samples and pick the best items.

 

[moocow]

Well, there is skill involved. I was mostly talking about the current #1 in particular. Most of the other top guys have tons of knowledge and figure out volt mods on their own, figure out all the tweaks, etc. But certain people get all the top hardware which can overrule all that skill that others possess. You can tweak the hell out of your hardware, but that isn't going to make up 400mhz on the cpu and 300mhz on the gpu that nobody else has.

 

[Grnfinger]

Worst part is many of the complainers are guys that are sponsored already, just mad that they're not as sponsored as others...

My opinion wont count much but here is my take on the subject


I totally agree with you but more on the average joe level.
The average joe is ****'d cause he cant get a $1000 chip for free so he benches his $200 chip ( like me ) and cant get the points (also like me) now suddenly the guy who has worked his *** off learning the hardware and the tweaks and has put in countless hours of testing is a cheat cause his chip is a sponsored chip and he had a nice pot of boints. Why should his efforts not count the same... did he start off with Asus or Intel in his back pocket..not likely. Hard work and major effort has paid off, let him reap the rewards.

If you join a winning team then regardless of your own total scores your still a winner in the end cause of the support and knowlege you have access to.
In my few short days here I have already learn'd way more than I thought,

btw your old 4870X2 was good for most of my points

 

[BenchZowner]

Wow, that thread is insane. I post and within minutes BZ was attacking my intelligence (by implication). BZ, if you have anything else to say to me, you're welcome to post it here. I'm done getting in the middle of that farce.

First of all I didn't say anything about you personally or your intelligence.
If I want to say something I say it loud & clearly, straightforwardly to the person's face.

Worst part is many of the complainers are guys that are sponsored already, just mad that they're not as sponsored as others...

Of course some people have unrighteous motives, but others have very righteous motives actually.
Some people just want a more balanced playing field, allow the intermediates to move forward, allow the newcomers to become intermediates, and mostly not discourage the newcomers with all that dirty **** goin' on.

I've got a problem with that "at the top because of their skill" statement. Just saying its pretty outragous that the #1 guy in the world doesn't even know how to run Aquamark. Its not about skill as much as you think it is when you have extremely-binned hardware that can do much more than what anyone elses hardware does.

If people want to talk about skill, better take a good look at 3D Mark2001SE, AquaMark 3 & SuperPi 32M.
Those are the benchmarks a good overclocker can actually tweak and separate himself from the rest with his "knowledge" and experience.

Unlike most of today's overclocking celebrities, owe nearly everything to the older overclockers, the real legends, righteous people, not cheaters, people who used to bench for real fun and no points and shizz, who happily shared their experience, ideas, tweaks.

Most of the top 100-300 overclockers out there can eventually max out any CPU/Mobo/VGA after a few sessions on air & LN2, if they're not genetically stupid of course
Setup a rig, and have 30-50 overclockers have 2 hours with it, and take a look at their max clocks ( CPU-z, Pi 1M, AquaMark 3, 3D Mark Vantage ) and you'll see that they're very close.

Re: Skill - We'll have to agree to disagree on that one. Hardware definitely helps, but those guys would just run through retails until they find one good enough anyway...so we're right back to where we started. Their skill combined with hardware will probably keep them at or very near the top.

Check the text above...
Plus, the discrepancies between the very best retail and a good retail ain't as big as the difference between a good A0 E.S. and a retail.

Re: Your third paragraph - Well, those are two different points. People that get ES's don't necessarily work for a company. Rarely do people that have ES CPUs work for Intel AFAIK. What you're talking about (and I believe a lot of people in that thread are talking about) is a different problem than just ES CPUs / GPUs.

The mobo manufacturers, software delevopment houses, and reviewers/beta testers get ES samples directly from Intel.
How many ? It depends on "how big you are" or the "quality" of your contact, and your "power".

In some countries, the local Intel offices invite some overclockers to go there, then they're given dozens of ES CPUs to bench there with LN2, and the lucky ones leave the building with one or even more.

 

[dejo]

I will admit there is a ton of "skill" involved. Knowledge, luck and time are also a very big part of it. At the end of the day, If I have a binned board that is guaranteed to do whatever bclk it may be and a hand picked chip with some hand picked gpu's and you have the makings of a top ranked clocker.

This isnt to say that anyone can earn the same amount of points, even given the same hardware. What it is to say is that, if I am given free hardware for whatever reason, and it will make the unreal clock speeds. I would be way more prone to really wring it out, and not worry if it was going to die in the process. As is stands, I have to purchase all my own hardware. That in itself keeps me from really over doing what we all do. and that is go to the very edge and sometimes past. If I dont have to replace it when it lets the secret smoke out, I would really be on the mode of getting the last piece of pie from it. Then more than likely many could just make another call and have another batch of hand picked hardware sent to them to repeat the process.

 

[Gautam]

Of course some people have unrighteous motives, but others have very righteous motives actually.
Some people just want a more balanced playing field, allow the intermediates to move forward, allow the newcomers to become intermediates, and mostly not discourage the newcomers with all that dirty crap goin' on.

In other words, people (like yourself) that get plenty of freebies want to "move up" and get cherry freebies, is that right? And if that's not possible, then ban them altogether.

And you can't quite say mobos and gpu's are different. Plenty of people feel that the seeded gigabyte cards for example are binned. I got a rampage extreme from asus a while ago that I'm pretty sure was binned as well. Would that stuff go in the "banned" category as well?

P.S. this is competition, no one has righteous motives.

 

[BenchZowner]

In other words, people (like yourself) that get plenty of freebies want to "move up" and get cherry freebies, is that right? And if that's not possible, then ban them altogether.

Honestly, I didn't expect to hear that from you.
But if that's what you think of me, fine, good for you.

In case of a ES removal or pro/amateur league split up, I will be the first to take the most righteous action.
I voted to totally ban the ES, while the only 980X I have now is an ES, and considering the fact that I lost my job recently and that I can't afford more than a single 980X right now, and that's with selling a few stuff that I recently bought, like the i5 670, and if that 1 980X retail that I might be able to buy in a few days is a banana ( like most of my stuff are thanks to my great luck ) my only hope will be getting another ES from Intel... which I voted to get banned off hwbot.
So I'm the one actually willing to punish myself if you catch my drift.

As for being sponsored, no, I'm not sponsored.
I just own a hardware reviews site, where I publish my reviews of products that I buy with my own cash and a few products that I get occasionally from a few manufacturers.
I don't get multiple pieces ( like the sponsored guys do ), I don't get cherrypicked samples ( like the sponsored guys do ), and I don't get those just to play with them.
I spend hundreds of work hours with each product, spend more hours to photograph them, edit the photos, write the text, prepare the charts, and upload the reviews.
And if something dies, it died.
I also spend the time to figure out the mods for the ones that nobody else published the mods, and of course risk the hardware testing out the mods and other ideas.
And I do that to share the mods, most of the time I work on mods for hardware I won't bench on LN2 at all.

I'm also one of the phew who risk his relationship with the manufacturers (?) [ or even get sued ] leaking stuff that others need and will benefit from using in everyday tasks and in benching of course.

It was also me, who opted to play in the category hipro5 was playing for the GOOC2009 qualifiers when I could just play for the other category and have a decent advantage to win the spot.
Nevertheless, I was the one who shared a tweak I found that could give me the win against hipro5 back then.

It feels like a self-promotion now, and I really don't like doing that and actually blush in case somebody speaks of me like that or introduces me to others in such a way, I actually feel uncomfortable, so I guess it's time to stop.

Enough with the words, words are just words, I'll speak with my actions

p.s. Let's take a look at my big "sponsorship" earnings for 2010...

1* Intel Core i7 980X B1 Q4EG ES ( which I might have to return )
1* Intel Core i3 540
1* A-data DDR3-2000X 6GB Memory Kit ( that must've been kind of handpicked by A-data, but not in the extreme way )
1* Gigabyte GA-P55A-UD7 retail... which suffered a socket burn with the i3 540 at defaults while doing the review measurements
2* Gigabyte Radeon HD5870 Super Overclock ( both retail, the first one arrived semi-dead, memory artifacts occured on air after 3-4 runs at stock )
1* Antec TruePower Quattro 1200W
1* Kingston HyperX DDR3-2000 memory kit ( Elpida BDBG chips )

That's everything I received so far starting from Jan 1st...

 

[icebob]

This is getting ridiculous, bench what you have, period. If I go to the drag strip and whoop everybody's arse cause Crane sent me a "special" set of camsharf, should be banned for that? You will never hear any complain about that, just a nice job man! If you want to have more "special" stuff, then just work harder and be consistent, make contact and shoot should happen. It's a competition dude, get everything you can have to win it. When you go to a drag strip you can get slapped on the back of the head if you try to look under the hood! Isn't that what we are doing? drag racing computer? The only thing we can do is work harder, bench more often and hope some door will open, crying about how the world is unfair will not open doors....

 

[KonaKona]

First of all I didn't say anything about you personally or your intelligence.
If I want to say something I say it loud & clearly, straightforwardly to the person's face.

Oh?

It has been mentioned a million times before, binning retails is much harder than binning ES's when it comes to finding a good chip asap.
Plus, the "mere" mortals have a chance of getting a competitive chip when everybody's playing with retails.
With the ES you have no chance to get "lucky" and find a retail as good as the top ES.
Don't know if an IQ higher than 60 is needed to understand this.

I'd like to find someone other than you that doesn't see that as an attack. That thread is getting pretty crazy, and frankly I'd say it's your fault. Your posts in the split tier thread are pretty out of line as well.

I'll tell you what I think of you to your face. All this about the most righteous decision on your part is the biggest BS I have heard on HWbot or here at OCF. Your posts are out of line and you don't seem to have any respect for anyone against your ideas. Heck, I wouldn't mind seeing a nice little banned tag under your name here, but luckily for you that decision isn't up to me.

Disclaimer: I'm a poor guy with no binning, but I have a few of my points on a E4300 ES. I voted for 3 but if I could I'd retract and vote for 1. Not because of BZ's rudeness or because of my chip, but because it wouldn't change anything except for what chips the pros bin.

 

[Deanzo]

So Bill,

What is "sponsored" in your world ?


At HWBot you have listed me as being sponsored (which I don't really care about one way or the other)

Yet here you say you are not.

But so far in 2010 you have received more free gear than I.
So wouldn't that make you very sponsored ?

 

[I.M.O.G.]

Thats good insight Bill, for those who don't know you... Honestly, from the reading I did on the hwbot thread, I could see how people could get the wrong idea about you. (gautam's post) From your posting here, it's a bit more reasonable and balanced... Compared to the hwbot thread, you were pretty animated in your posting and replies, sometimes even offensive, and I can't say I had any sense of what you'd claim your goals or values to be.

I think it might take a little bit for people to appreciate the reasonable side, after what looked a bit over the top on hwbot.

 

[icebob]

So Bill,

What is "sponsored" in your world ?


At HWBot you have listed me as being sponsored (which I don't really care about one way or the other)

Yet here you say you are not.

But so far in 2010 you have received more free gear than I.
So wouldn't that make you very sponsored ?

Shoot! if I've received all that stuff for free, I'll be happier than a hippy in a pot farm!

 

[icebob]

What is the definition of a "sponsered" guy? I think I'm one of them! My sponsor is newegg! Everytime I asked for something, they send it to me! just have to give them a bunch of numbers in exchange!

 

[BenchZowner]

So Bill,

What is "sponsored" in your world ?


At HWBot you have listed me as being sponsored (which I don't really care about one way or the other)

Yet here you say you are not.

But so far in 2010 you have received more free gear than I.
So wouldn't that make you very sponsored ?

Aren't you a part of Gigabyte's "beta testing" team ? If not, my mistake sorry for listing you there.

If getting hardware "for free" ( if you consider spending hundreds of hours of work per product a "freebie" ) = review samples, then yes I'm sponsored.

In benching and HWbot I'd consider somebody "sponsored" when he gets samples ( most of the times cherrypicked with him knowing that ) [ e.g. Corsair ] specifically for overclocking, and most of the times we're talking about multiple parts each time, and with a "RMA" option that backs him up if he screws up or received a bad sample in case of a non-cherrypicked sample.

Thats good insight Bill, for those who don't know you... Honestly, from the reading I did on the hwbot thread, I could see how people could get the wrong idea about you. (gautam's post) From your posting here, it's a bit more reasonable and balanced... Compared to the hwbot thread, you were pretty animated in your posting and replies, sometimes even offensive, and I can't say I had any sense of what you'd claim your goals or values to be.

I think it might take a little bit for people to appreciate the reasonable side, after what looked a bit over the top on hwbot.

Sorry, I'm on berserk mode on HWbot, seemingly that's the only way to get a point across to Pieter ( massman ).

It took him 4 months of "abuse" to finally remove... just 1 of "psycho aka kurumi" 's fake CPUz validations...

 

[ghost_recon88]

I'd consider "sponsored" being getting hardware whether it's totally free, to beta test, or to do a review. If you didn't pay the company any money and you're getting a product, it's sponsored.

 

[icebob]

So i I get something for free, I cannot post the result on the bot?

 

[KonaKona]

I'd consider "sponsored" being getting hardware whether it's totally free, to beta test, or to do a review. If you didn't pay the company any money and you're getting a product, it's sponsored.

So gifted hardware is a sponsored as well? Cool, eye'm a sponsored one now!

 

[BenchZowner]

@icebob

Who told you so ?

p.s. All scores acquired with any even if it's just one part that I got for free, are now in the non-ranked category.
I did my duty, let's see who's willing to step up

 

[ghost_recon88]

@icebob

Who told you so ?

p.s. All scores acquired with any even if it's just one part that I got for free, are now in the non-ranked category.
I did my duty, let's see who's willing to step up

Feel free to do that, but just because you may be willing to do that does not mean that others are going to share in your same opinion.

Until rules go in place, why would anyone willing remove points from their account? If it's still legal and within the rules, why not?