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Is it time for a platform upgrade from Z97/4790K?

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OP
Tech Tweaker

Tech Tweaker

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Joined
Dec 14, 2010
Well, I guess I should consider AMD options now that they're more relevant as an upgrade, and that Ryzen 5 3600X (+25% performance increase estimated) is looking like a good value for the money. (I looked at Zen+ processors of the 2000 series (2600 (+2%), 2700 (+2%), 2600X (+8%), 2700X (+16%)), but none of them seemed like a reasonable upgrade from my 4790K).

This would be the first time I've had an AMD system as my main PC since 2010 if I go with them for my next one, heck I'm very Intel-leaning on my PC's around here. Got probably 5 Intel Desktop systems (not counting the mobo's I have in boxes), 5 Intel Laptops (one of which I need to replace the motherboard in to get it back up and running), 2 AMD Laptops and 1 AMD Desktop (not counting the mobo's I have in boxes).
 
OP
Tech Tweaker

Tech Tweaker

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Dec 14, 2010
Well, new year and still hoping to upgrade.

My 4790K decided it doesn't want to remain stable while overclocked lately (oddly enough, it only crashes in Windows 10 and only when idle, doesn't crash when I'm booted into Win 8.1 on my other SSD) it locked up five times in the last two weeks when running in Win 10. I kept feeding it more voltage, but it didn't get any more stable (+.03V). Now giving my 4.5GHz OC the same voltage I used to give my 4.6GHz OC, last time I tried it. I'm back to stock again now, to keep it from randomly locking up the OS (for now).

After a recent experiment it's clear that only 4C/4T doesn't cut it anymore in games, I disabled HT on my 4790K so that it was like a 4690K with a slight OC to 4GHz and tried playing COD: Modern Warfare. It was an interesting experience to say the least, it introduced system lag which for some reason made me better at the game (presumably the lag was causing my targets to be slower and easier to hit, or it might have been my imagination), but my CPU was definitely pegged at 100% usage basically the entire time I was playing and my PC definitely felt less responsive (especially if I tried to ALT+TAB to another program between matches).

Now assessing my options again.

AMD Ryzen 5 3600
AMD Ryzen 5 3600X
AMD Ryzen 7 3700X

Intel Core i5 9600K
Intel Core i7 8700K
Intel Core i7 9700K
 
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EarthDog

Gulper Nozzle Co-Owner
Joined
Dec 15, 2008
Location
Buckeyes!
Maybe it's the OS install or something else... ;)

I'd go Ryzen 7 3600 or i7 9700K...and of those two, the Ryzen. No sense to go less than those two options on an upgrade.
 

caddi daddi

Godzilla to ant hills
Joined
Jan 10, 2012
sadly, the 4790K bottlenecks anything beyond a gtx1060 and I agree with earth dog.
I have A 9600K and at the same clocks, it exactly matches my 8600K and is not great for 1080P with frame rates above 100, at 60 and 75 it seems fine but the stutters above 100 make it a no go.
 
OP
Tech Tweaker

Tech Tweaker

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Dec 14, 2010
Well, I guess my overclock isn't the issue causing my intermittent lockups. My PC locked up again this morning, while running at stock settings on all of my hardware. I came in to check my emails before heading to work, only to find my PC unresponsive. PC was running, keyboard and mouse inputs though had no effect and for some reason one of my two monitors was flashing on and off with some sort of image displayed when it flashed on but it turned off so quickly I couldn't read what it was.

Upon restart I found the crash/lockup was severe enough that it triggered a Check Disk (CHKDSK) scan for file integrity. I ran that same scan a couple of times with the /R parameter implied when I first started having these issues, but it's never found anything wrong yet that I'm aware of. I've also run multiple SFC scans to no effect.

If it is a software problem it doesn't show up in my standard scans for software instability or lack of file integrity. Some instability with the Windows 10 OS that doesn't show up or manifest itself on my Windows 8.1 OS, or an issue with the drive itself? Or some hardware failure that for some unknown reason only is exposed when I'm running Win 10?

It's odd that it only crashes when the PC is idle just sitting with my internet browser (Firefox) or my email program open (Thunderbird), or some other non-taxing programs. I can play games for multiple hours without issue (and did last weekend on Saturday).
 

caddi daddi

Godzilla to ant hills
Joined
Jan 10, 2012
have you gone into settings/security and updates and run up dates manually in win 10, it can cause havoc at times if it is trying to update itself.
 
OP
Tech Tweaker

Tech Tweaker

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Dec 14, 2010
have you gone into settings/security and updates and run up dates manually in win 10, it can cause havoc at times if it is trying to update itself.

Well, it says it last checked yesterday at 10:23 PM. None available.

It is saying there's an optional Feature Update to version 1909 available, but that is the only thing that came up on my last manual check.

The next thing I could think of was running the DISM tool to attempt a repair of the active Windows Image. I use it occasionally to repair issues at work, but I've never had to use it at home yet.

https://www.windowscentral.com/how-use-dism-command-line-utility-repair-windows-10-image
 
OP
Tech Tweaker

Tech Tweaker

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Dec 14, 2010
Is there any reason not to buy the Ryzen 5 3600X over the Ryzen 5 3600 other than the increased price?

I just saw the 3600X went on sale for ~$10 more than the 3600's regular price.

I know the 3600X also has a higher TDP than the 3600, but don't know if there is a considerable increase in load temps or idle temps to go along with that.

have you run the decrapifer script in elevated powershell?


http://winaero.com/blog/how-to-remove-all-bundled-apps-in-windows-10/

Nope, I hadn't found good reason to do that yet, and I do use some of the bundled apps.
 

caddi daddi

Godzilla to ant hills
Joined
Jan 10, 2012
if you use some of the apps, don't run the script, just go get safer networkings antibecon and use it, it reduces windows phoning home some.
running the script reduces the background use of your cpu.
I think that the only real difference between the non X and X chips is clock speed, if your talking 10 bucks, that ain't much when you're building a grand and up rig.
 

shadowdr

Senior Member
Joined
Jan 10, 2001
If the update to 1909 is still there I would suggest running it until it takes or downloading manually. I had been having the same issue as you, just random freezes and had suspected for some time that it was video related. It does it when screensaver initializes or running videos and occasionally for no reason I can figure out at all. I noted that the feature update had been failing for a long time so after trying manually a few times and getting failures, I ran sfc /scannow and it said that it had found corrupted files and could not repair them. I went ahead and downloaded the feature update and ran it manually and it did in fact update my windows version and apparently fixed the bad files. sfc /scannow ran without errors at all. I have since had no freezing crashes.
 
OP
Tech Tweaker

Tech Tweaker

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Dec 14, 2010
So, say I've got my Ryzen 3000 series CPU...

Now do I go with an X470 or X570 motherboard?

Should I get an X570 motherboard for future compatibility with PCIe 4.0, or does that even matter? Or is there any other reason to consider X570 over X470?
 

trents

Senior Member
Joined
Dec 27, 2008
So, say I've got my Ryzen 3000 series CPU...

Now do I go with an X470 or X570 motherboard?

Should I get an X570 motherboard for future compatibility with PCIe 4.0, or does that even matter? Or is there any other reason to consider X570 over X470?

Ultimately that decision is up to you and in part, I would think, it depends on how long you intend to hold onto the new hardware. As of now, the only real reason to go with X570 is if you are intending to also invest in gen 4 PCIe m.2 SSD storage which gives noticeably faster boot times and large file/program load times than does Gen. 3 PCIe m.2 SSD. But it is considerably more expensive. As of now, there is no real advantage in going with gen 4 PCIe video cards as the current gen. 4 cards (what few there are) don't even saturate the gen 3 PCIe bandwidth.
 
OP
Tech Tweaker

Tech Tweaker

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Dec 14, 2010
Ultimately that decision is up to you and in part, I would think, it depends on how long you intend to hold onto the new hardware. As of now, the only real reason to go with X570 is if you are intending to also invest in gen 4 PCIe m.2 SSD storage which gives noticeably faster boot times and large file/program load times than does Gen. 3 PCIe m.2 SSD. But it is considerably more expensive. As of now, there is no real advantage in going with gen 4 PCIe video cards as the current gen. 4 cards (what few there are) don't even saturate the gen 3 PCIe bandwidth.

Well, I guess I don't have much reason to go with an X570 board then, as I'm planning to go with a Samsung 970 Evo, 970 Evo Plus, or 970 Pro likely in the 1TB size for a boot drive (I'm using a 500GB drive in my current system and using almost half of my storage space, and at one point was using nearly 65-70% of my space, so I kind of want to upgrade to a larger capacity). Then maybe an additional Samsung 970 Evo, Samsung 970 Evo Plus, or Samsung 970 Pro for a games drive, plus my 2TB WD Black storage drive.

I usually stay with the same main PC for 4-6 years, with some incremental upgrades along the way (CPU Cooler, RAM, GPU, CPU, etc). About the only thing I usually don't upgrade is the motherboard, barring an unforeseen hardware failure of some sort. I've ended up upgrading my CPU, GPU, RAM, and Storage drives (keep running out of space) in my last two main PC's.
 
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trents

Senior Member
Joined
Dec 27, 2008
I agree. gen 3 pcie ssd drives are plenty fast. Besides, running any pcie gen 4 hardware on the x570 motherboards really ramps up the power draw and heat. That's why they had to add a fan to the motherboard chipset.
 

EarthDog

Gulper Nozzle Co-Owner
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Dec 15, 2008
Location
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I usually stay with the same main PC for 4-6 years,
About the only thing I usually don't upgrade is the motherboard,

Then go X570. Because you may want or come across that fast storage and be limited. What is the difference, $50? Over 4-6 years.....? What if video cards are choked a bit on PCIe 3.0 in those few years? What if you want to jump to a 3990x as your upgrade in 3 years? Since you don't change it around, might as well make it the most modern and robust solution you can within your budget...
 
OP
Tech Tweaker

Tech Tweaker

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Dec 14, 2010
Having trouble deciding on a case for this new build.

I could do one of the below options.

1. I swap most of the hardware out of my current PC and reuse the Corsair 750D case (I like this case). Then buy some other cheap case and swap the hardware from my current PC into it (I plan to keep all the hardware from my current PC in a functional state, as I do occasionally have to refer back to old PC's for files or programs I've left on them.) One time I had to rebuild an old PC for some files I left on its OS drive, that were only accessible by a program I left installed on the old PC's OS drive. Current considered cases: Corsair 200R, Corsair 275R, Corsair 300R, Corsair 600T, Fractal Design Core 3500, Fractal Design Focus G, Fractal Design Define R4, Fractal Design Define R3...

2. I swap my X58 build out of my other Corsair 750D case, then swap out my X79 build from the Corsair 450D it's in now into the second 750D. (I have several PC's, yeah, most of them have no real purpose other than benchmarking and are probably a waste of their potential. Maybe I'm weird.) And then I build my new PC in the Corsair 450D. The X58 build is getting a bit old at this point, it was originally built to be a backup PC in case my main PC went down at some point (hardware failure or other issues) (which at one point I did have my main PC go down for a bit and I needed a backup so that I wasn't totally without a working PC.

3. I just buy a new case, then build this new PC with it. At this point considering Corsair 750D, Corsair 450D, Corsair 730T, Corsair 760T, Fractal Design Define R5, Fractal Design Define R6, Fractal Design Define S...

4. ???

Anything that has a glass top (Tempered Glass or otherwise) or doesn't have a fairly flat/level top won't be considered. I have a second PC stacked on top of my main PC as of right now, and I don't plan to change that currently. So that one has to sit level on top of whatever case I end up with for my new PC.
 

DaveB

Senior Member
Joined
Dec 18, 2000
Having trouble deciding on a case for this new build.

Anything that has a glass top (Tempered Glass or otherwise) or doesn't have a fairly flat/level top won't be considered. I have a second PC stacked on top of my main PC as of right now, and I don't plan to change that currently. So that one has to sit level on top of whatever case I end up with for my new PC.

I'm cheap where cases are concerned, so anything approaching $100 isn't for me. Did you consider the Cooler Master NR600 for $70? I've been using the same Corsair Carbide Clear 400C for years and only paid $50 as an open box at my local Microcenter.
 
OP
Tech Tweaker

Tech Tweaker

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Dec 14, 2010
Well, I finally built it.

Ryzen 5 3600X (for now, may upgrade in future, don't know)
Gigabyte X570 Aorus Ultra (got it for like $200, so cheaper than I bought some X470 boards I own at)
16GB G.SKILL TridentZ RGB (Samsung B-Die) memory (I may end up hating the RGB, don't know yet)
Evga GTX 1070 Black (my 1080 is still in my Z97+4790K build, and I needed something for video output)
Corsair RM750i power supply (I just love being able to monitor the wattage draw and temps, my RM650i kind of ruined me on that.)
Noctua NH-U12S SE AM4 (I don't know if it needed an aftermarket cooler, but that Wraith Spire didn't look like it'd be enough for my tastes and use case.)
Fractal Design Define R6 w/USB Type-C (It's wider and longer than I thought it would be. My main annoyance though is that the screw heads for my AIO didn't fit under the top panel, forcing me to go with air cooling as the panel wouldn't close no matter what I did.)
Samsung 970 Evo 1TB OS drive (still need to eventually transfer my storage drive from my main PC, or clone it to another drive.)

Powered up, installed OS and started installing programs/apps. Everything going fine until I smelled the unmistakable smell of electronics heating up, looked inside my case after the PC had been running for an hour and discovered to my surprise that... I'd forgotten to plug in the CPU fan to a header (any header) on the motherboard. So, nice to know that it can run passive with a Noctua NH-U12S SE AM4 cooler for at least an hour without any noticeable issues (aside from the smell of the heatsink getting warm).

It's like a rule that you have to make at least one mistake in every build, right?

Still have not transitioned over to new build (mainly due to my dread for how long it takes me to reinstall all programs, and back up and transfer my profiles from my Internet Browser (Firefox) and Email (Thunderbird) and not feeling like doing more tech support after getting home from my day job of being an IT Support Tech/Support Specialist. It always takes me at least a week to get back up and fully functional on a new PC.
 

caddi daddi

Godzilla to ant hills
Joined
Jan 10, 2012
I think the only change I would make is to swap the video cards around, the 4790K matches the 1070 better.