Jumped Ship, new 3770k user

[Whiskey11]

Hey all, I recently (two nights ago) got my computer upgraded. I finally have reluctantly left AMD (most likely temporarily) and joined the 3770k club due to one God forsaken game (FlightSimulator X). A big thanks goes out to the guys over on the AMD boards for helping me take my little Phenom II X4 945 C2 125W to 3.825GHz and be stable! Not too bad for that little X4 but it was just time to go!

So where exactly did I go? Computer is:

Mobo: ASrock Z77 Formula OC

Processor: Intel i7 3770k

Memory: G.Skill DDR3 1300 8gb (2GBx4) at 8-8-8-21-2T (due to a
misunderstanding of what NewEgg was sending as a "free" 8GB memory, just

one dim :O)

GPU: EVGA nVidia 660ti

Storage: 1TB Western Digital 7200 drive (can't remember all the specs, but circa 2009)

Cooling: Swiftech X20-220 Radiator/Pump/Reservoir combo with 4x Cougar Vortex PWM 120mm fans in Push/Pull at the top of the case in intake, Appoggee HD CPU waterblock, 1xCougar Vortex PWM 120mm fan at the rear for exhaust, 1x 140mm Swiftech fan at the bottom (intake).

Case: Zalman GS-1000 hacked to fit a radiator on the top in push/pull

PSU: Zalman ZM1000HP 1000W PSU (yes, overkill)

OS: Win7 Professional 64bit

I think that covers it all.

Here is the CPU-Z 3 screens and a screen of HWM after I ran at 4.6GHz last night:




In case the screenshot for the HWM doesn't display correctly due to photobucket's compression factor, here are the temps in current/min/max format:

Core #0: 27ºC 24ºC 83ºC
Core #1: 27ºC 25ºC 87ºC
Core #2: 26ºC 22ºC 84ºC
Core #3: 24ºC 19ºC 80ºC
Package: 33ºC 30ºC 86ºC

The average temperature in Prime95 Blend (26.6 is version number BTW) was closer to low to mid 70's. When I woke up this morning to shut off Prime95 it was 72ºC on pretty much all the cores except one was at 68ºC. Ambient in the apartment is around 20ºC-21ºC. I realize Prime is a worst case scenario so the temperatures are kind of a "guideline" right now, but should I be worried about those MAX temperatures when the averages I'm seeing are about 10ºC lower?

My goal is to hit 4.8GHz which I'm thinking should be achievable with some tweaking. I do have to admit though, that coming from a non-BE 945 to an unlocked multiplier 3770k is kind of boring! No FSB/BaseClock tweaking necessary (or, from what I'm reading, really possible on the 3770k)! You will also see that in CPU-Z that I'm running 1.35V (as commanded in BIOS) with LLC at level 3. The voltage drops to 1.328V under load. I know a lot of folks don't recommend too much more voltage for 24/7... I'm hearing 1.4V is the max recommended for that, but am I more concerned with 1.4V idle or 1.4V under load? I did not find a clear answer on that when I checked the past 20 pages in this forum for all things 3770k and Ivy Bridge related.

So here are some obligatory shots of the GS1000 case hacks. Most of you guys know this isn't the most ideal case for, well, anything since it tends to run hot due to lack of fan support (2 120mm's in the bottom possible, 3 at the top but beyond that, NOTHING).

Top mounted rad/reservoir/pump combo! I had to hack the top steel panel in order to get it to sit flush with the top panel. The pump/reservoir sticks up through the top steel but is covered by the plastic top cover:


In this photo you can see what I was talking about with the reservoir (at the back of the case/top right of photo) and pump (near the front of case/bottom left of photo). I've since taken the grills completely out to help with noise (not that the Cougar 120mm's make that much noise)


The Appoggee HD block sitting on top of the uncut (yet marked) top panel.


This is a kind of "Hopeful" finished product look. Under the fan grills hasn't been cut out yet and I don't currently have it on the computer, but it will eventually sit on there to give a more "completed" look.


Sorry for this bad picture, and for that horrible wiring job!


I hope to expand the WC loop to include the power delivery section (since it has barbs for it) however they chose to use some small barb fitting (10mm!!!!!!) instead of the larger barb fittings that are standard on most things. Since this board does not NEED the WC loop in place to operate, it doesn't have it yet, but I'd like to add it. The nice thing about the Appoggee HD block is that I can expand into two more parallel loops and it will tie into this radiator without any issue! I hope to eventually add a GPU water loop (with an added 120mm radiator to the rear of the case, then to the main radiator) and the power delivery loop but that is still a ways off. And yes, dyed water... sorry, it's what came with the Swiftech kit (HydrX-PM, sounds like a cold medicine) and will someday be replaced. Money became a little tighter, as you can imagine after this upgrade!

Thanks for reading! Comments, criticisms, etc all welcome!

 

[bluezero5]

nice! and welcome to Intel.
i happen to think you will stay with Intel CPUs. lol.

anyway, first thing first, given the nice specs of your system, I think for your IB chip you can maybe look for better RAM, these days even 2000 Ghz ram is quite cheap, and between 1333 and 2000 Ghz, I think the upgrade should be quite nice there.

all else your system temps are pretty good!
4.6Ghz is a sweet spot to stay at, I will say you are sitting on something very nice indeed.
while your goal of 4.8Ghz should be quite doable, I think between 4.6 and 4.8 the difference probably not too visible.

good luck!

 

[Whiskey11]

nice! and welcome to Intel.
i happen to think you will stay with Intel CPUs. lol.

anyway, first thing first, given the nice specs of your system, I think for your IB chip you can maybe look for better RAM, these days even 2000 Ghz ram is quite cheap, and between 1333 and 2000 Ghz, I think the upgrade should be quite nice there.

all else your system temps are pretty good!
4.6Ghz is a sweet spot to stay at, I will say you are sitting on something very nice indeed.

I'm well aware that the RAM is substandard... I was under the impression that the "Free 8GB" of memory included with the MoBo from NewEgg was going to be 2x4GB dims but it was 1x8GB dims of 1600. New RAM is on the short list (less than a month) for purchase, and given that this MoBo supports some pretty stupid high memory speeds with OCing the memory, there is no reason NOT to use better memory!

EDIT: I saw your EDIT! The difference in FSX of 200 MHz is about 3-5 FPS. That doesn't sound like much in the grand scheme of things, but milking every last FPS out of this horribly optimized game is essential. Considering my rig, running the default scenery but with a highly detailed aircraft barely manages 25 FPS (with dips to the mid teens) at busy airports (LaGuardia in New York City for instance), 3-5 FPS is the difference between stuttering and smooth gameplay! Every little bit helps! Now on the other games I play (Planetside 2, etc) probably not much difference!

I'm looking at memory right now and trying to find some 2133+ DDR3 with some decent timings. Any preferences? I was skeptical of my G.Skill (being a Crucial person prior to 2009 when I bought this G.Skill) when I first got it, but it is some pretty tough memory so I can't really complain!

 

[Whiskey11]

Well... Up to 4.7 GHz at 1.385V commanded volts (seeing actual of 1.376 under load). I ran it at 1.375V but after 2 hours I got a rounding error on one of the cores. Heat reached a max recorded of 93ºC on one of the cores, 91ºC on another and the other two at 87ºC. 4.8GHz wont happen without delidding or some MUCH better cooling (Peltier? ) or both! So long as the temps don't get above 95ºC and it is stable for 12 hours I will call it quits for now. It will obviously never see those temps even with FSX raping a core full tilt so I'm not too terribly concerned. I just want it to be stable! I do have to admit that coming from the AMD side, these temps are on the scary side for me, but I guess it is "normal" for these Intel chips!

I ran Planetside 2 at max and I'm averaging over 40 FPS at the highest settings in HEAVY combat so that works. I haven't tried FSX yet but more on that later.

 

[Whiskey11]

Triple Posting for the lose but I need some opinions on a future RAM purchase and didn't want it to get lost in an edit!

I let Prime95 run all night at 4.7GHz @ 1.385V vCore. I have every bit of confidence that it will pass the 12hr mark (less than 5 minutes to go! ). Max recorded temp in HWM are 93/95/92/89 and 95 for the "Package". Hot, yes, but not temps I will see, even on a single core, in any video games I play. If there was one thing I wish I had, it was a water temperature probe so I could see what the temp is of the water in the system. Case ambient is about 25ºC (Ambient in my apartment is 20ºC) so it can't be pumping too much heat into the case that isn't being removed.

Anyway, on to the question. I'm looking to "future proof' this computer a little bit so I'm looking at capacity and speed and timings, but I will admit I know VERY LITTLE about RAM stuff... just fancy advertising so I'm asking some help here from people who know more than I do.

What are the thoughts on this ram:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820231589

From the review here of the 32GB kit, it seemed to get a pretty glowing review. This is the 16GB kit (2x8GB) The price is reasonable and I'm hoping that it should make it 3 years of doing some serious butt kicking and probably then some!

Thanks in advance for any help!

 

[nimrod0031]

Pelts aren't worth it if you want cold. They're a pain in the *** I've been there done that. If you want cold just go to phase change. It's way more simple of a setup and works a lot better.

Have you thought about taking the lid off? I've not done it on a I7 yet so I'm not sure how involved it is but I've heard good results in temp drop but very little if any overclocking gain.

 

[Whiskey11]

Pelts aren't worth it if you want cold. They're a pain in the *** I've been there done that. If you want cold just go to phase change. It's way more simple of a setup and works a lot better.

Have you thought about taking the lid off? I've not done it on a I7 yet so I'm not sure how involved it is but I've heard good results in temp drop but very little if any overclocking gain.

Yeah it seems like anything beyond water is a lot of work to get working without issues such as condensation. I'm not sure though how much over clocking headroom any of that gives anyway and how reliable that is for 24/7 use. There used to be a guy who did a Peltier setup with a controller that kept the whole unit above the dew point (with all of the sensors) to keep condensation from happening but he has closed his doors indefinitely.

I have thought about taking the lid off of the CPU but I am pretty nervous about doing it right now since money is a little tight and I don't want to have to replace it if I screw up. I know it provides some thermal headroom but I am rapidly approaching vcore max at 1.385V (Intel says 1.5V IIRC) and I don't know how much quicker that will ramp up beyond 4.8 GHz. I know that at 1.400 vcore at 4.8 GHz that it wouldn't prime due to summation errors or rounding errors. From 4.5 to 4.6 was a vcore increase of 0.025V to a vcore of 1.350V then from 4.6 to 4.7 was a jump of 0.035V to my current of 1.385V. IIRC it would Cinebench 11.5 at 4.8GHz with 1.400V. Score was a 9.87 IIRC. The score is saved so I can double check when I get home tonight.

Thoughts? I wish that these Ivy Bridge CPUs had some more clear absolutes with voltages and stuff. I know max max max core temp is 105 (which I hope to never get near) but voltages for safe 24/7 use seem a bit more scarce!

EDIT: I forgot to add that the memory I linked above is on the way. I hope it was a good one!

 

[adelphia83]

I too, had a rude awakening when I began overclocking my new I7-3770K system a couple weeks ago.

I had high hopes for 5.0ghz and beyond. While I was able to POST at those speeds, and even piddle around in Windows and start stress tests & benchmarks, the temperature problems were astounding and immediately became a problem as I crept past 3.5ghz. Despite having a massive air cooler (Coolermaster V8), I could not keep temps under control enough to use the chip's max overclock 24/7.

Indeed, there are very few situations where some application will stress all cores quite like Prime95 does for hours on end, but I'm a stick in the mud when it comes to stability.

I found the best compromise was to under-volt some settings in an effort to keep temps down, and then increase Vcore enough to keep a given speed stable. It was a balancing act of sorts, because if you went too low with voltage (not just Vcore, but some other ones I was trying to undervolt), you got instability, yet if you went too high with voltage, temps got out of whack which also results in instability.

It seemed as though the system would only be 24/7 Prime stable when temps were kept at or around 90C (or lower).. Vcore was at 1.28v, above that it got too hot and thermal-throttle or Prime95 would puke after a couple hours.

Long story short is these IB chips run HOT, HOT, HOT. Had I known that I would have most definitely gone with a Sandy Bridge. What's ironic, is the cooling solution is hardly the problem... The CPU die just gets too hot, too fast, for the IHS and cooler to pull heat out fast enough. Even running for hours, I found the cooler not even warm to the touch, so it was not getting saturated with heat. What this tells me, is that the heat from the CPU die is not conducting to the IHS, and in turn the heatsink efficiently.

I have a feeling size of the cooler makes little difference in overclocking potential for this reason. It's likely that the conduction of heat to the IHS is so slow and inefficient that even a stock Intel cooler would perform similarly.

Anything that can cool the chip to sub-ambient temperatures should have a huge leg up versus those trying to remove heat at ambient temp through air, liquid cooling and other means.

 

[Whiskey11]

I too, had a rude awakening when I began overclocking my new I7-3770K system a couple weeks ago.

I had high hopes for 5.0ghz and beyond. While I was able to POST at those speeds, and even piddle around in Windows and start stress tests & benchmarks, the temperature problems were astounding and immediately became a problem as I crept past 3.5ghz. Despite having a massive air cooler (Coolermaster V8), I could not keep temps under control enough to use the chip's max overclock 24/7.

Indeed, there are very few situations where some application will stress all cores quite like Prime95 does for hours on end, but I'm a stick in the mud when it comes to stability.

I found the best compromise was to under-volt some settings in an effort to keep temps down, and then increase Vcore enough to keep a given speed stable. It was a balancing act of sorts, because if you went too low with voltage (not just Vcore, but some other ones I was trying to undervolt), you got instability, yet if you went too high with voltage, temps got out of whack which also results in instability.

It seemed as though the system would only be 24/7 Prime stable when temps were kept at or around 90C (or lower).. Vcore was at 1.28v, above that it got too hot and thermal-throttle or Prime95 would puke after a couple hours.

Long story short is these IB chips run HOT, HOT, HOT. Had I known that I would have most definitely gone with a Sandy Bridge. What's ironic, is the cooling solution is hardly the problem... The CPU die just gets too hot, too fast, for the IHS and cooler to pull heat out fast enough. Even running for hours, I found the cooler not even warm to the touch, so it was not getting saturated with heat. What this tells me, is that the heat from the CPU die is not conducting to the IHS, and in turn the heatsink efficiently.

I have a feeling size of the cooler makes little difference in overclocking potential for this reason. It's likely that the conduction of heat to the IHS is so slow and inefficient that even a stock Intel cooler would perform similarly.

Anything that can cool the chip to sub-ambient temperatures should have a huge leg up versus those trying to remove heat at ambient temp through air, liquid cooling and other means.

Definitely. I was well aware of the Ivy Bridge heat problem before purchasing it and the difference between IB and SB was still enough to sway my decision. I could have gone with Sandy and gotten higher clocks and similar data through put at the expense of future proofing the setup. Losing PCI generation 3 was a non starter since the 660ti was designed for it. Some of the other features for memory and the like were also important to me.

That said, the biggest disappointment for me is how cheaply done the Ivy series feels relative to the price paid. The whole thermal paste between the CPU die and the heat spreader just screams cutting cost to increase profit at our expense. At least it its fixable for those that are brave enough. Intel knows better. I wish the K models at least came with better paste or solder but that was obviously asking too much! That said I am not disappointed with the performance. I'm at 4.7 GHz under water cooling and while it isn't record setting it is still a hefty over clock and to be stable (12 hours Prime95) is nice as well. My previous AMD was only 7 hour stable at 3.825GHz but that was pretty impressive for a 945 C2 chip.

 

[Tzvia]

That said, the biggest disappointment for me is how cheaply done the Ivy series feels relative to the price paid. The whole thermal paste between the CPU die and the heat spreader just screams cutting cost to increase profit at our expense. At least it its fixable for those that are brave enough. Intel knows better. I wish the K models at least came with better paste or solder but that was obviously asking too much! That said I am not disappointed with the performance. I'm at 4.7 GHz under water cooling and while it isn't record setting it is still a hefty over clock and to be stable (12 hours Prime95) is nice as well. My previous AMD was only 7 hour stable at 3.825GHz but that was pretty impressive for a 945 C2 chip.

Just upgraded my rig to a 3770k and just delidded it last night. I'm on water, a Raystorm, and at 4.7 with vcore at 1.33 it's stable. But before delidding it ran on Prime at 86C. Delidded it is now hitting 76c. Only had Arctic Silver so I might pickup another few c when my Liquid Pro arrives. The tim in that chip was like a rubber gasket. Can't imagine it being any good. Delidding was scary and not for everyone but it should drop temps at least 8c and I have heard of some who got much more. Depends on the chip and OC. I was willing to replace it if I wrecked it.

 

[Whiskey11]

Just upgraded my rig to a 3770k and just delidded it last night. I'm on water, a Raystorm, and at 4.7 with vcore at 1.33 it's stable. But before delidding it ran on Prime at 86C. Delidded it is now hitting 76c. Only had Arctic Silver so I might pickup another few c when my Liquid Pro arrives. The tim in that chip was like a rubber gasket. Can't imagine it being any good. Delidding was scary and not for everyone but it should drop temps at least 8c and I have heard of some who got much more. Depends on the chip and OC. I was willing to replace it if I wrecked it.

The idea is still very much in my mind but I want to wait until after taxes first to see if I can afford to replace it should I goober it up.

 

[bluezero5]

I still think it is a grand pity that Intel didn't use better TIM for the IB chips...

the increase in clocked speed because of the better cooling would have been a great market share winner.

 

[Whiskey11]

I still think it is a grand pity that Intel didn't use better TIM for the IB chips...

the increase in clocked speed because of the better cooling would have been a great market share winner.

Agreed! Have folks who have delidded their 3770k been able to push past the 4.8GHz range with any success in 24/7 use? I need to do some research on how high they were able to get.

Question for you bluezero: with the RAM I choose above do you think that I can get mine any higher on the same or slightly more vcore? I know that the PLL voltage can reduce temps some too so I should probably spend some time playing with that value.

 

[bluezero5]

all my friends that de-lidded their IB had little problems to get to 4.8Ghz, the previous issue was heat, and once that is solved, it was actually fairly easy. whether or not it is worth it, is another question, as from 4.5-4.8Ghz, the difference on daily use is next to invisible, so most prefer to settle for 4.6Ghz.

can u ask ur question again?
Do you mean.. you want to OC your RAM?
or do you mean if your RAM will limit your CPU OC?

 

[Whiskey11]

all my friends that de-lidded their IB had little problems to get to 4.8Ghz, the previous issue was heat, and once that is solved, it was actually fairly easy. whether or not it is worth it, is another question, as from 4.5-4.8Ghz, the difference on daily use is next to invisible, so most prefer to settle for 4.6Ghz.

can u ask ur question again?
Do you mean.. you want to OC your RAM?
or do you mean if your RAM will limit your CPU OC?

My question was: will upgrading the RAM to 2x8GB 2400MHz from 4x2GB 1333MHz allow for any extra overclocking on the CPU? I have read that going to two sticks of RAM from four stresses the IMC less and can allow for higher stable overclocks.

 

[bluezero5]

well, you are right in saying that.
z77 is dual ram channel, if the basic rule is 1 ram per channel for best stability.

HOWEVER, this is more for RAM overclocking.
in my experience, I have found the RAM speed from 1600-2400 not affecting my CPU overclock at all. Or rather, I wasn't able to get a higher CPU overclock when I downclock my RAM either. So I believe the two events to be generally not too co-related.

 

[K3yra7]

Just upgraded my rig to a 3770k and just delidded it last night. I'm on water, a Raystorm, and at 4.7 with vcore at 1.33 it's stable. But before delidding it ran on Prime at 86C. Delidded it is now hitting 76c. Only had Arctic Silver so I might pickup another few c when my Liquid Pro arrives. The tim in that chip was like a rubber gasket. Can't imagine it being any good. Delidding was scary and not for everyone but it should drop temps at least 8c and I have heard of some who got much more. Depends on the chip and OC. I was willing to replace it if I wrecked it.

Do you have a high ambient temp? Even with AS it feels to me that 8C is really bad.... Are you sure you did a good application? First time I put Liquid Pro under there I was over 20C cooler at the same OC, when I re-applied the Liquid Pro after a few months now I'm sitting at 30C cooler for the same OC...

 

[Tzvia]

Do you have a high ambient temp? Even with AS it feels to me that 8C is really bad.... Are you sure you did a good application? First time I put Liquid Pro under there I was over 20C cooler at the same OC, when I re-applied the Liquid Pro after a few months now I'm sitting at 30C cooler for the same OC...

Been building PCs since before they had HSs. Did three mounts as AS5 doesn't spread well. I hope to get a bit more from Liquid Pro. It is currently Priming small ffts after two hours, at 74c. Room is around 23c. The default Prime setting runs in the upper 60s. Beats where I started, 97c with an H100.

 

[Whiskey11]

Well I got the memory installed and ran MaxxMEM^2 and strangely enough, they perform worse at 10-12-12-31-1T then they do at 10-12-12-31-2T. The same occured on my previous RAM (8-8-8-21-1T vs 8-8-8-21-2T). Granted, the difference was:

10-12-12-31-1T @ 2400 MHz
Copy: 27482 MByte/sec
Read: 26468 MByte/sec
Write: 23279 MByte/sec
Mem Score: 24.87 GB/Sec
Latency: 46.9 ns

vs

10-12-12-31-2T @ 2400 MHz
Copy: 27321 (161 MByte/Sec SLOWER)
Read: 27416 (948 MByte/Sec FASTER)
Write: 23327 (48 MByte/Sec FASTER)
Mem Score: 25.37 (0.5 GB/Sec MORE)
Latency: 46.1 (0.8 ns FASTER)

So better at everything, even if only minorly, in all but Copy speed.

PiFast dropped some too.

 

[AtomicFrawg]

I also Just moved from My i7 920 4ghz setup to the i7 3770k setup for FSX / Xplane10 / Prepar3D.
My 920 had no problems handling the sims, it was the software which I use for streaming the flight sims on twitch that was starting to bog it down.
I am defiantly loving the extra power! Now just to work to a good stable Overclock. =)