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Rjcouture1

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Aug 30, 2008
Location
Worcester,Ma
Just a thought for beginning WC

First off don't let this post deter you from what you want or have.
This in no way reflects the opinion of OC Members they are my thoughts and I will try to update this top post to make it as clear and concise as possible.

Second I'm not familiar with all products and how they perform.
If certain products work for you add a comment here.

Third this post was and is to help people who may want to do more with WC but just are not thinking that far ahead.



Okay, So lets start:

1. Kits meaning products such as Zalman,Koolance,and Thermaltake.
Are not well liked in that there performance tends not to be better than top air such as Thermalright ultra 120 extreme.
There may be other problems too.
I call them Plug n' plays as usually it's all self contained.
This is not a reflection of how easy or hard they're to install.

1a. LCS cases have had problems with the WC pump.
I've read people having to return the case to manufacturer.

2. With more conventional WC all individual parts can be swapped out.
Example: Swiftech or Danger Den you're originally locked into your parts with medium to near top performance.
And if something breaks down you can either buy the replacement parts from them or go to a vender that sells 3rd-party parts.

3. Your other option is to buy the pieces from reputable online retailers or maybe a computer shop your good with for WC.

4. If you have questions about WC this forum is the place to go.
Not everbody trusts reviews, so visit these places for a more balanced opinion.

5. You will read this further down and it's very good advice even if it takes awhile Read the water cooling stickies.

5a. The best advice is sometimes the simplest.


Now lets talk about parts:

1. Most WC blocks are current for CPU's and GPU's alike.
There can be cooling differences but nothing you should worry about.
The two praised blocks for cpu are EK supreme and Dtek fuzion v2 and it seems a third may be Swifttech apogee GTZ there are other CPU blocks out there but these are considered the best.

2. As for the pump the D5 by liang or MCP655 by Swiftech seem the choice.

3. Graphics blocks are a bit harder as there are people that prefer full coverage and others prefer the GPU block with ramsinks.
For full blocks EK nVidia, EK Radeon,Danger den and probably next choice Swifttech (nvidia).
For blocks with ramsinks Swiftech ranks high along with danger den and Dtek.
As with CPU blocks there are more but these are considered the best.

4. You want full copper radiator
Rads. in no particular order Swifttech, Danger Den, Thermochill,etc..
If you don't want the rad. in your case you'll have to get a rad box which gives a little distance from the back of your case for air flow.
One other point all rads need fans for best performance.
I dont give sizes if you need help with a build ask the forum.

5. Tubing many brands and colors get at least 10' with the minimum dimensions being 3/8" ID.
1/2" ID prefered choice.
And 7/16 ID is choice for a tight fit and better leak protection.
Don't forget you'll need worm clamps for 1/2" or 7/16" tubing.
For 3/8" steel spring hose clamps or the plastic reusable clamps.
Also you can buy compression fitting for 3/8" and 1/2" tubing.

6. Resevoirs you can buy one that fits your drive bay by far the easiest res. but they also have flat base round and square ones.
Some people don't even use a res. they use a fill port which requires you to cut a hole on the top of your case with a t-line where a fillport to the t-connecter is the res.

7. I didn't cover nb,sb,or mosfets as not everybody use these and Swiftech H2O-compact, H2O-220 and danger den don't include those parts anyways.


And here's your basic custom WC setup prices:

1. CPU: dtek $64.95 ,ek supreme $65.95 swifttech gtz $69.95

2. optional GPU Full cover $109-160 for blocks listed can go much higher with other brands

2a. optional GPU block w ramsinks $44-53 on products listed may need to purchase ramsinks $15-40

3. Rads 120.2-120.3 $35-150 add for external Rad box $20

4. Pump $77-90

5. Tubing $2-2.75 /ft

6. and your res., $15-80 if you go fillport t-line $16-19

7. This is a general pricing you still would need a thermal paste AS5,AS ceramique, my choice IC diamond,or other really good compound.
You still need to price your clamps or compression fittings and fans for your rad.

These prices can be cheaper than where I got prices.

Minimizing the risks inherent of WC.

1. Using a tube cutter for an even cut.

2. Compression fitting for a tighter seal.
Also using 7/16" tubing for a tighter fit over 1/2" barbs when using worm clamps .

3.Leak test for 24hrs.
Just hook your water cooling loop and a fan to power supply and put paper towels where the hose and barbs connect and also where water may fall on vid cards or bottom of case.
Fill up res. and turn on and off repeat until loop is full.
Use a purchased 20 or 24 pin jumper that connects to the atx 20 or24 pin.
Do not hook up your mainboard to the power supply

4. Follow a reg. maintainence schedule so you can spot if a leak may have developed.

5. Follow the recommended period to flush your system.
The longer Destilled water or non-conductive fluid stays in your system the more conductive it get's and the greater the chance of damage to your system on a leak.
Never reuse the fluid

6. After you do you a flush it would be a good recommendation to repeat 3a. if you have added to your loop.

7. Change your tubing every 3-5 yrs.

This is probably as close as you'll get to 100% safe.

Now go enjoy your WC setup.:drool:
 
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Jas

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Feb 7, 2005
Location
Kenosha, WI.
The problem with most "kits" is they are made of lower quality components than your "non kit" components.

The term "Kit" is misleading, because many reputable companies making high performance water cooling equipment offer Kits. These are preselected component packages using mainly their own parts.

When we refer to a "Kit" here on the forums we are usually refering to something that comes out of Thermaltake, Koolance, coolermaster, etc. And these are usually either; underperforming bargain kits, with substandard equipment, that just don't perform; Kits that don't perform well enough to warrant their price tag; or Kits that are in some way proprietary and not easily expanded on, or upgraded.
 

CGR

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Location
Lower NY
Some kits are good. Such as kits that petras puts together or the higher swiftec kits.
 
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Rjcouture1

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I'm sorry,

When I hear the word kit in water cooling to me it it means swifttech,danger den,innovatech and plenty of others that even though they use there own parts it's a coventional form that we use in regular DIY uses for components I can't consider the koolance,zalman or Thermaltake a kit although the kandalf case in a way is since it's conventional in it's parts but the rest of those listed are a more plug n' play for lack of a better word to me.
 

Jas

Member
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Feb 7, 2005
Location
Kenosha, WI.
All "Kits" have the same basic components. This is because at a minimum you need the following things to complete a loop:

CPU Water Block
Pump
Radiator
Sufficient Tubing
A means to fill the loop (Resevoir, or T-line most common methods)

Swiftech, and Danger den are two of the most reputable manufactures of Water cooling products and their "Kits" use high quality, performance quility parts. This includes the blocks, radiators, and pumps.

Companies like Thermaltake tend to use lower quality parts, that are not up to the same levels of performance. It's these types of "kits" that we here at the forums typically call a Kit. a Swiftech kit is really nothing more then just some prebundled Swiftech parts, same With Danger den.
 
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Rjcouture1

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A reply that helped forge a better top post

All "Kits" have the same basic components. This is because at a minimum you need the following things to complete a loop:

CPU Water Block
Pump
Radiator
Sufficient Tubing
A means to fill the loop (Resevoir, or T-line most common methods)

Swiftech, and Danger den are two of the most reputable manufactures of Water cooling products and their "Kits" use high quality, performance quility parts. This includes the blocks, radiators, and pumps.

Companies like Thermaltake tend to use lower quality parts, that are not up to the same levels of performance. It's these types of "kits" that we here at the forums typically call a Kit. a Swiftech kit is really nothing more then just some prebundled Swiftech parts, same With Danger den.

That is why I corrected my wording on my post edited says clarifying and apologised later down the post.

Next not to be rude but there are people that want to get into WC that don't want to overclock but just want to start to get into it and are immediately told don't get that DIY which has an apple superior air to it these people are nervous as it is they're getting into something that they've never done before DIY sounds more complex and can make it less likely they'll even try it.

And their are people that don't want to hang rads off the back or cut their case but want to cool there CPU they're looking for is there a better "kit" they don't want to here DIY.

Also people that have chosen the idea to WC don't want to here about the latest greatest HSF in the WC forum but that gets thrown out when people don't want to OC It's rediculous if the person want to WC and they want a "kit" give them the best "kit" that will work if they want more offer Swiftech and DIY I know it's OC forums but some people need help with just going WC no matter the form and they should be helped no matter there choice "kit" ,Swiftech,or DIY there really isn't just a straight WC site out there and they need help.

As for TT most complaints I have read deal mainly with the aluminum rad. I have not personally cut one in half but but the tubing looks all copper with aluminum fins while it is true that not all of TT products may not be good for cpu + gpu setups it would not be attributed to the p500 pumps if not to the smaller radiators most use.

You would be correct in that with less flow would make things warmer you arn't going to get great OC's with TT but you'll get the cooling there products aim for the beginner.

In conclusion the person who's not looking to overclock maybe his best interest is a box kit and those that are a little more adventurous but don't want to go searching for everything maybe Swiftech or Dangerden are for them,and then their are the people that did either of the above or are the buy my parts myself people off the bat that custom build.
 
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Rjcouture1

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The only thing I forgot to mention is while they "kits" contain all the part of a regular WC loop there compactness makes them far from conventional where all the parts are seperate and easily replaced.
 

QuietIce

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The only issue I have with "sub-standard" kits is that in many instances a simple air cooler, even with low-noise fans, gives equal or better performance. I often hear/see (and there's even a current thread about it) people talking about high-end air being better than water, which is pure hogwash. But this assertion is based, I'm sure, off the performance of those same "sub-standard" kits.

First time WC'ers need to understand they're better off with air than with bad WC kits. I can understand your plea about getting them into WC in the first place but which is better - send them back to the air cooling section and have them try WC in the future when they're more equipped to handle it, OR reinforce their delusions about sub-standard kits and have them undergo a less than satisfactory experience with WC their first time out?

I'd bet half the people who have tried WC and gone back to air are exactly those people who bought the over-priced, easy-to-use kits and found no great improvement in their temps for the money they spent. I'd further be willing to guess at least half of them will never come back to WC and, in fact, will spread the word that WC is an expensive hoax - and from their experience they would be justified in doing so.

I'm sorry but I'd rather give them straight information right up front and have them make a good, informed decision about WC instead of taking the chance of completely turning them off the idea of WC and creating air-cooling fanboys ...
 
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Jas

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Location
Kenosha, WI.
I completely agree with QuietIce.

This topic seems to re surface every few months or so.

The truth is, kits form companies liek thermaltake, koolance, etc, are no easier to install than say some DIY parts from swiftech. In fact, one might argue that a DYI setup is an easier install, simply because you have more options as to how it can be installed/setup. For instance, swiftech makes a dandy little gadget called the radbox, which makes installing a radiator in or outside a case a snap, with no need to cut up your case.

As QuietIce said, it's more than often the case that a high end air solution will out perform a substandard WC kit for a fraction of the price.

And as been said millions of times over, in millions of threads on these forums and others, there are two basic reasons to water cool.

1) because you plan to OC and need the cooling power
2) you want a nearly silent cooling option.

Some may argue that there is a third reason being because you can't stop fighting tinkering urge. Voigts is a prime example of that :beer:

Even though this horse died a whiel ago, never hurts to give it another whack once in a while.
 
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Rjcouture1

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Another reply that helped with my top post

I'm sorry to be disagreeable but I think the people that quit watercooling is not because of there kits I would say they don't like being berraitted about their choice.

As for 1st time watercoolers needing to know air better than water with bad kits well then what are the good box kits you can't say there arn't any see what a small predjudice does if someone goes TT the get shot down the, go zalman the get shot down,maybe the ones you say left WC just didn't want to here bias anymore so they don't visit this site or maybe just ask questions that don't relate to what they own.
I mean there's a kid on here asking about adding to the loop or seperate loop that basically boo's himself for what he has and tells you he likes it so don't give him any crud about it.

Or how about half the people that wanted to get in to water cooling asked questions about there kits are told you should go air well if my choice of kit is being slammed and am told to go to air why would I bother to go to water as far as expensive hoax after asking is the reserator xt good and have the comment come You'd be better off with a true or DIY with real reason why I'd say it was an expensive hoax Is paying $400 for a zalman or $800 for the lq1000 zalman case that is way too expensive for just a Cpu cooler and there are other kits like the zalman that compare better for price and equal or better performance.

People who leave watercooling cover the whole spectum not that narrow band some do it because the want to test what air coolings offering from word of mouth ,others leave because they just don't want to do it any more,and then there are still other that are so green you ask did you use thermal paste before mounting and there like Huh?

straight up information comes from personal use of said products not word of mouth while word of mouth is good like the pump on the TT p400 are prone to failure which you will never find in a review because of limited time of said product,If I say the resorator xt under-performs.
How so ?
By what standards did I use to derive that information?
How come multiple reveiws contradict the my under-performance statement?
Am I implying a bias toward a product that was imprinted on me when I wanted to start water cooling and reading these type forums?
Are there people that enjoy there kit?
Are there people that get into water and leave disappointed whether it's a kit or DIY?
Can a forum be misinforming?

Q: I'm thinking about the TT Kandalf LCS for WC there will be no oc
A: TT sucks
A: get a true
A: why get that DIY
A:if your not OC why water cool
If those are straight up information answers whats a general answer look like
Here is what striaght up info would look like to me.
Having owned the TT Kandalf LCS case I have found it to be fairly quiet and simple to install I have seen good temps. with my proc. though I have not WC my gpu it should be able to handle 2 cards with little effort the major issue with this case is that TT pumps have been said to have a high failure rate I cannot verify this as I have not experienced this the other complaint people have is the rads on the TT being aluminum while it is true that an all copper rad takes care of heat better the TT rad. isn't going to destroy your loop since you will use 10% anti-freeze + 90% destilled water or premix solution.

Yes it looks like a mini review but it is informative it tells the person some detail of the product can it be shorten and still contain vital info yes like this,

TT kandalf case has good temps 30/44 on so and so cpu, some expandability,there have been people that have had problems with pump.

To me that is more informitive than my friend convinced me to not get a product great either the friend had the product and didn't like it or he was one of the few that went past the zalman type kits to Swiftech or DIY.

I will say the zalman is the most expensive kit out there and has the most reason to be put down just on price alone but to say you be better off with air than a good price to performance kit I would say that thinking is wrong as many people are happy with what they purchase, disappointment comes from the fact that the hype to WC yes water cools better than air under load do some air cooling solution come close yes the people I think become disenchanted with WC are those that buy these kits thinking they can do all the stuff a quality Swiftech loop or custom loop can do if these limitation were explained instead of downright noseup to those kits people would be more informed of their choice and go better, I still say some know their choice for just Cpu and to them they want to know the quality of their choice some in's and out's problems they may encounter.

My entire original thought just dealt with really going with DIY and general pricing to show it's cost from just a Cpu DIY to the Gpu with quality components it's the ambiguous word kit that has made this more than that
I can defend a kit as well as DIY both bring a purpose if these products did not have a place just by word of mouth these products would no longer be in market even the best company will not produce a product that doesn't sell not all people are ignorant to what they buy and what for,
Like me I bought my lcs case knowing what people said about TT and what people end up doing which I will do in turn the main change will be my radiator at some point the pump/res. I have the fluid XP+ vortex but it's not installed because I didn't realize when I purchase it from the online vender it didn't come with the barbs and of course TT block is proprietery not standard G 1/4" so while I get great temps with my phenom on their block and probably won't see better the overall case is excellent for me I am not disappointed with my choice I rather think it was a good choice for me would I recommend it to anyone getting into WC yes I would ,If some one was building an entire system from scratch with a large budget to include a custom loop I would help them with case choice as well as components and it would use an intel proc. unless amd gets equal in lacking areas,if someone just wanted to cool there proc. and they didn't want to cut there case up I would help research a product for them tell them pros and cons to there choice steer them clear of an overly expensive products and give them the choice of going air.
 
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Rjcouture1

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yet another to help form a better top post

I completely agree with QuietIce.

This topic seems to re surface every few months or so.

The truth is, kits form companies liek thermaltake, koolance, etc, are no easier to install than say some DIY parts from swiftech. In fact, one might argue that a DYI setup is an easier install, simply because you have more options as to how it can be installed/setup. For instance, swiftech makes a dandy little gadget called the radbox, which makes installing a radiator in or outside a case a snap, with no need to cut up your case.

As QuietIce said, it's more than often the case that a high end air solution will out perform a substandard WC kit for a fraction of the price.

And as been said millions of times over, in millions of threads on these forums and others, there are two basic reasons to water cool.

1) because you plan to OC and need the cooling power
2) you want a nearly silent cooling option.

Some may argue that there is a third reason being because you can't stop fighting tinkering urge. Voigts is a prime example of that :beer:

Even though this horse died a whiel ago, never hurts to give it another whack once in a while.

What topic all I originally posted was people here don't like kit's which I then had to clarify what you call kits my whole wording is as easy as calling it a custom loop.

I gave general pricing to a DIY pack did not say it was outragously expensive.

As for koolance,and zalman they are crazy expensive though koolance can cool more than the Cpu the price is rediculous.

If hooking up tubing to a box that goes on the side or top of your is more complicated than a DIY then I give up.

I've already seen a post here where the person doesn't want a rad hanging off the back and I'm just as equally sure there are people that don't want to do either So I guess they get the big **** you just because a person does not want to OC or build like you do does not mean he does not see a purpose in what he wants to do I touched alot more in my huge above post.

Why does that person need those three reasons, I've always wanted to try WC I made my choice if anything the only reason for me to change parts is to improve some components other than that I like my TT product and technically do not have to change parts for a long time.

my large post says a lot to my beliefs wether I'm a new member or not I will not cloud my judgement with bias.
 
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QuietIce

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I'm sorry to be disagreeable but I think the people that quit watercooling is not because of there kits I would say they don't like being berraitted about their choice.

[and everything else] ....
Being disagreeable is fine - this is a forum and it's made for discussion. :)

I made no mention of the other half of the people who left WC for air for various other reasons since that didn't seem pertinent to the discussion. And I (personally) don't agree with dissing someone for their choice of kits. To help someone you have to work with what they've got and what budget they have. Suggesting stuff they can't afford or deriding them for a bad decision in the past doesn't help anybody. But I can only speak for myself - this is a public forum and everybody has the right to voice their opinion whether it's right or wrong. What can you do? :shrug:

As for people who are asking about kits, yes - I'd rather tell them to stick with air than buy a kit that won't do the job they expect it to do. At the very least I'd tell them, "It's not going to do the job you expect it to do." Is somebody else's insight who has owned that kit better than mine? Maybe, and I'd see no reason to chime in if that former/current owner has made his comments and they cover the question(s) being asked. On the other hand, if I look at a pump spec and it says 6' of head at 1.5 GPM (no load) I can figure out by looking at the block and rad spec sheets if the pump will handle the loop in question. I don't need to buy the kit and test it - that's why spec sheets are published. I'm also VERY suspicious of a product if the spec sheet(s) isn't available. My biggest question at that point is "Why won't they publish the spec sheet(s)?". It looks like they've got something to hide and it's only prudent to question their performance claims at that point.

Would I ever recommend a kit not sold/made by Swiftech, Petra's, or DD? Probably not unless the price is right and even then I'd feel obligated to point out the possible problems the kit might give them and say, "... but at that price - go for it!" (I've done this). I have no real problem with "sub-standard" kits per se, but I do have issues with unsubstantiated claims and the sometimes huge price tags those kits have on them. It's bad publicity for all of water cooling when companies/ad-men stretch the truth (or sometimes outright lie) about their product or a competing product - or do a 300% mark-up.



Regardless of all that I think you did a fine job on your original post ... :):thup:
 
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Rjcouture1

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Being disagreeable is fine - this is a forum and it's made for discussion. :)

I like discussions with you.

Your answers to questions that I raise are much better and not vague if only a lot more people did this.:beer:

I sorry if I seemed a little peeved but I was frustrated, I thought I was clearer in the original post I never meant for it to be a discussion about under-performing kits.

But at the same time it's good because people will see more clearly from your post why they are disliked.

And the best answer to what I can do is post and have intelligent discusions with intelligent people to always learn more about both sides of a problem to get the whole picture.
 

Jas

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Location
Kenosha, WI.
I've already seen a post here where the person doesn't want a rad hanging off the back and I'm just as equally sure there are people that don't want to do either So I guess they get the big **** you just because a person does not want to OC or build like you do does not mean he does not see a purpose in what he wants to do I touched alot more in my huge above post.

You tend to see lots of short comments along the lines of "Stay away from manufacturer X", or "Kits from X suck".

The main reason for that is these topics are exaustively debated and researched. There are many threads on these forums and others that exaustively go into cpu block comparisons and performance, same with radiators, and pumps (See some of Niksubs, and cathars threads). There are tons of threads regarding personal experiences as well. So to say that certain manufactures get bashed simply out of bias isn't entirely correct. There are good reasons to bash products from certain manufactures. Reviews, both technical and personal, form the basis of those opinions.

It's not just water cooling either, the same can be said for air cooling. There are various manufacturers, and products which should be avoided like the plague as well.

The biggest gripe I personally have, is the price that consumers pay for "kits" or prebuilt water cooled cases by certain manufactures. Data shows that you just aren't getting any bang for your buck. I don't mind a lower quality/performance product, as long as it's priced accordingly, and doesn't promise results that it can't meet. There is a market there, but that product should be advertised and marketted as such and not as something it isn't. I'm talking about thermaltake in particular here. Now, I love thermaltake cases, I think they make a great case. They've been hit or miss when it comes to air cooling. Their fans are over priced. But on topic, their water cooling is over priced, and misleading in it's promises and marketing.

If a particular product or company gets bashed on these forums, (especially in the cooling sections) 99% of the time there is good reason for it.
 
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Rjcouture1

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One more post to help

I just touch a little on your X statements.

I don't disagree with you on anything really that you stated the difficulty comes in trying to find that information.
Some information is easy to find reviews of products are found even here.
The product X kits forum stuff much harder as a lot of sites look like air vs. X kit wars and I agree with those results.

Past all that people that are just joining can have difficulty finding such topics here or don't know of such topics some are knowledgable enough to be asking about rads,pumps,and other such topics some that want to get in need to know why that x kit is a bad choice and I see no help in such responses.

What I tried to do in my thought through clarification that you originally applied is what can be wrong with those x kits and try to push them to better solutions not all will DIY but some may be willing to get Swiftech of Danger den and some may look at the pricing of DIY and look up and ask more about those components, though I or anybody else can't convince everybody what is best.
The question that should be asked of those that don't want top air or the medium to top end watercooling is What are your long term plans for such a setup?
As most haven't thought that far ahead not to belittle there intelligence I'm sure they've read reviews even TT Big Water gets good reviews here but they may not be thinking about further down the road.

Will I eventually OC?
Will I expand to the Gfx card?
Will I expand to any other components?
Can I easily replace parts?

These and many more questions could be asked to better enlighten yes you may be repeating yourself by asking such question to that person but it gets them thinking longterm and at the end no matter what is said the sole decision on what they do lays with them.

As a matter of fact even though this was not meant to be a rehash of X kits, the volume of information thats been past down here will surely help people that just browse this forum as guests and the people who just joined and read this but have little knowledge will come away with greater understanding.
 
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Jas

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Location
Kenosha, WI.
You'll actually see most reponses to new visitors asking the "I'm new to water cooling, what shoudl I build" will be questiosn along the lines of:

Why do you want to WC (OCing, looking for near silent, etc)
What kind of budget do you have?
How comfortable are you with doing some tinkering?
Have you read the stickies?

That's a big one, most of the information you could want as a newbie can found in the stickies, and we try to direct newcomers there as much as possible.
 
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Rjcouture1

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I have to agree those stickies are good reading though I'm sorry to say I get lost with the graphs maybe it's just my old age and lack of using math:bang head.

I also just feel dumb in the fact the questions I listed are more like questions a person should ask themselves after posed with questions like yours.
 

Ghostcustoms

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Mar 28, 2008
Problem with these kits comes from the people here. I got little to no help with upgrading my thermaltake bigwater here. As for costs it was free and it has got me into water cooling so how could these kits be bad? I dropped 2C over my air cooling which was a hdt1283.

I wish there was a sticky for how to improve these kits. I found some posts else were showing how to lower temps 3-4. Also I'm adding another radiator but now that I have a complete system I can slowly replace it with better parts(I could not afford good water cooling to start with).
 
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Rjcouture1

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Location
Worcester,Ma
Problem with these kits comes from the people here. I got little to no help with upgrading my thermaltake bigwater here.

I wish I had read your post I could have told you a p500 can easily handle a 120.2 rad as my sig says I have the Kandalf LCS.
You can also use a different waterblock.

I know you said you found your info somewhere else but if I had seen it sooner I would have said something.

It's hard for me to recommend things I'm not familiar with all things TT so sometimes I'll side with a second loop but if I have enough info on something I'll give as staight an opinion as possible I try to ask questions to help people help me learn more.

And while this post is not to detur a person of his choice I tried to make it for not the person that is sure of his choice or already in ownership of such product but for the person that is unsure of what he/she want's and can afford to purchase next up or DIY items that may not be fully thinking ahead.

I listed some in's and out's of what is termed here low quality kits of which some apply to all WC.

I try to read the online guides of TT when questions of those are asked since the manuals are online but unless the pertain to my case it's hard to be 100% sure of other than an educated guess by me.

I do strongly frown upon rediculously priced products such as zalman's resorator xt and Koolance externals there prices are way to expensive even if you have cash to burn price alone say noway.

If you ever have a problem you can PM me I'll help where I can.
 

HDCHOPPER

Member
Joined
Mar 6, 2008
you left out CoolIT units

the Eliminator can be had for 95 bucks mine has been flawless & works very well

just fyi