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Just an idea that was buzzing round..

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DarkLord7854

Registered
Joined
Jan 3, 2007
Location
West Palm Beach, Florida
Well, this is my first post though I'm not "new" to the boards. Just wanted to share this little idea that suddenly manifested itself as I was looking at the frosty pics topic just now.

I saw a Mineral Oil mod a while back (or some other non-conductive liquid) where the guy basically made a giant tank and just stuck his mobo and everything in it with the exception of the PSU, HDs and the other removable drives.

I was browsing the phase-change frost pics and an idea hit me, where you guys try to cool just the cpu, but the block is usually completely covered in frost since it doesn't have just 1 area of heat diffusion if the block isn't completely covered.
What I was thinking of was to use that Mineral Oil idea where the entire system pretty much is dunked into the non-conductive liquid and then the vapo-chilled block is put in it on top of the cpu with no insulation. Since the oil would be non-conductive, the problem of condensation/leaks wouldn't be an issue since the whole system would be submerged anyways.
The advantage that I saw however is that it would not only keep the CPU cool, but everything else inside the tank, and then you could just put a 120mm fan to make the oil move to make heat disperse better (if the oil doesn't freeze, then if it does you'd have a giant-ice cube of a system, perfect for cooling your cans at LAN parties :p )

Anyways, thoughts on this idea (pros/cons/possible to do/not do) would be appreciated.
I just assembled my Core2 system and been happily tweaking it and squeezing as many mhz from it as possible but my air cooling isn't superb and I'm too lazy to re-setup my w/c loop hehe

Thanks
 
Whats the max thermal load of a Direct-die phase-change cooler?

we know that they can handle CPU's, but can they handle the load of a full system; CPU, GPU, NB, SB, and the biggest problem in my opnion, PWMs?
 
i think itd work fine so long as you can find an oil that stays thin enough and wont coagulate at the evaps temp. since its coming in contact.
 
Thanks for the replies :)


Was thinking of vegetable oil also maybe. Was just wondering if it'd work and if the phasechange cooler thing would be able to provide the necessary cooling robustness to support having a whole system (maybe even with the HDs submerged?) without killing itself and frying itself hehe

Also wondering if the GFX would be kept with it's fan or what? What modifications to the hardware would be necessary?

Only problem I can see if moving the thing hehe
 
jinu117 built a chiller for a customer to cool the oil for a submerged project.

DD, not enough capastiy, they didnt have this in mind when building it.
Most chillers, same problem but can be tuned for more heat load, and yes pumping the oil will be a PIA.

not to mention all the other issues with using oil in the first place.. like capasitor leakage :eek:

liquid (alchol mix) chiller is a far better idea for cooling multiple heat sorces (the areas that matter)
 
no way veg oil would work. think light machine oil. like a zero weight mineral oil or something. maybe silicon based, i dunno if it would work as good.

id remove all the fans.
 
Sweet, more replies, keep em coming guys :)


I've been looking at vegetable oil, and I've stumbled upon a few more cooling solution using just the oil and nothing else but a few case fans to make the oil move around the case, so pumps aren't even needed. Would it be too much for the phase-change system to keep cool if it was just the motherboard, CPU, and 1 video card? Only thing that would be over clocked would be the CPU.

I was actually thinking of not submerging everything completely, but sort of putting the motherboard flipped, so that the expansion slots would be on top and the CPU at the bottom, and submerge only the lower half of the motherboard, mainly just the CPU and possible the NB and cool that with the phase changer.

I'm really just wanting to avoid messing with insulating everything and making sure no condensation forms and stuff.

My ideal idea would be to just stick everything in vegetable oil, put a few fans to make the oil circulate around the case, and stick some kind of chiller in there on top of the CPU but in a way that it still cools down the surrounding oil.

Hmm, well what if, everything is submerged, but you guys said the phase-change cooling would probably not be able to counter the heat load generated by so many different heat sources. Have the phase-change block sit on a small block sitting on the CPU, but have it well wrapped to it only interfaces with the rather small copper block (also completely covered probably in duct tape) and have that have hold in it with a fan attached to one end (not big holes mind) so that it would primarily cool the CPU and only interface with a small amount of the oil.
If I could model in 3D I'd whip something up but I think I'll have to draw the stuff to show it and then scan and paste if you guys can't visualize it :S


Well like I said, I just want to avoid this whole condensation/insulation thing because I have a feeling that says 'You're gonna screw up buddy!" :beer:

(I also really want to make a personalised cooling solution :p )


(and you guys need more smileys also :p :()
 
DarkLord7854 said:
So another question, what could I use to cool the liquid? Since apparently the phase-change cooling wouldn't be able to cope with the heat load yes?

A DD die phase change unit wouldn't but a something like with a larger evaporator could cool it. However oil does a horrible job at conducting heat so I would stay away from it for this type of cooling. Almost all the times I have seen something like this done it was when they were using extreme cooling and this was just another way to protect against condensation.
 
DarkLord7854 said:
So another question, what could I use to cool the liquid? Since apparently the phase-change cooling wouldn't be able to cope with the heat load yes?

Thats a silly statement to make. Phase change based refrigeration can cope with an infinite load. Its a principal, and this one doesn't have a load limitation.

If you want to make a chiller and want good results, especially for a horrible heat conductor like mineral oil a plate heat exchanger is what you need, not a direct die evap. Don't use a car to fly or a plane to drive on the street. Use appropriate things for appropriate tasks.


http://www.flatplate.com/whybraze.htm
http://www.flatplate.com/products.htm
(just an example, I wouldn't buy from plat plate as their prices are too high but you get the point)

Now let me open up the can of "stay away from submersion cooling" I made a long time ago:
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showpost.php?p=1662151&postcount=6


Its a horrible idea and it works very poorly with many problems and complication, completly impractical, costly, messy and pointless. Just a show for craps a giggles.

As for a more constructive replay I posted this once:


Done many times but all these projects are plagued with problems and are not meant to last.

Oil has a very low surface tension and as a result leaks though just about every little microscopic crack possible.

It ruins capacitors and some other things.

It is also an extremely poor conductor of heat.

Also cooling everything vs just the gpu/cpu gains nothing and is a waste of capacity where its it needed, it cpu/gpu.

Oil breaks down when exposed to oxygen. Other mediums are even worse.

And much more:

I almost went thought with this idea once and did months of reading and research and testing on the subject, I'll shear it with you. My idea was to use DD but to use the dielectric fluid to insulate. But you need the same information I needed. I have backed out of the project because it turned "uncool" very fast. This is NOT a project you want to do if you want something fun and flashy. I will talk about some problems as to why I backed out in favor of a chiller.

You can find many projects like yours online but you must keep in mind that most of them are non permanent, very messy and plagued with problems and maintenance. You won’t read any problems or any thoughts on most of what I will tell you because these projects are meant to last for about an hour then it doesn’t matter what happens.


MEDIUM:

Fluorinert is the best option if you actually want this to cool and not cook your computer. Here is some information on it:

- Lower viscosity then water (flows better then water)
- Crystal clear and odorless
- The pour temperatures vary from -101ºC to 215ºC depending on type
- Relatively non-toxic
- Non-flammable
- It will permeate (leak) through PVC, Tygon, and silicon tubing so use metal pipes / metal enclosures etc.
- Heavy, 1 gallon = 8 pounds
- Inert (non-corrosive)
- High electrical resistance (can stop 30,000v) = 100% dielectric as for as your *** is concerned
- Almost nothing biological can grow or live in it
- About $225 per gallon
- Evaporates fast
- Saps plasticizer out of plastic (makes plastic *relatively* brittle over time)
- Does not dissolve rubber

Here is a good article on it and cooling:

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
A little about PerFluorcarbon/Fluorinert by YoueatLard

I see allot of people talking about this and inquiring about these substances. Few here but many that get into water-cooling come into contact with topics about it. I work with a variant of Fluorinert called FC-77 and figure I might shed some light on PerFluorcarbon/Fluorinert products.

First of all this is a completely synthetic product. The only place I know of to buy it (new and free of contaminates) is from 3M though reclaimed Fluorinert may be purchased from various locations.

Fluorinert is an awesome product for cooling.
Yes it is similar to water but it has a lower viscosity. This is good and bad.
It is good because should move faster in a pump then water will. This helps to offset it's lower thermal conductivity and thermal capacitance.
It hurts because it will leak or permeate in systems that will hold air and or water. This is hurts because of it's price. You will have to use metal pipes because of this. It will permeate through PVC, Tygon, and silicon tubing. You will also want your pump inside a metal reservoir. I might recommend using copper tubing for it is fairly cheap and relatively easy to work with.

Also, yes flourinert will work in your Hydrocool or Eheim pump.

Fluorinert is heavy. Water is roughly 8 pounds to the gallon. Flourinert is roughly 14 pounds to the gallon. Why does this matter? Most places sell it by the pound.

Now for the pluses it was made for:
Fluorinert is inert. This means no worry of corrosion from using it. At work we've been pumping it through aluminum pipes with copper crushwashers for the last 30 years. Whenever I remove a part cooled by fluorinert I look inside it and inside the tubing and inspect for corrosion. The 95% of the piping I inspect has been inservice to 30 years and I've never seen or heard of corrosion being found in it. Ever looked inside a car's radiator after someone has put too much water in it and ran it for a 3-5 years?

Although fluorinert is non-corrosive but is not anti corrosive. It will not protect your system from anything else you put in it. It also will not mix (suspension, chemical, or otherwise) with water. To my knowledge it will not with oil, alcohol, or antifreeze. If you get it to mix with something post it and I'll fix this. Our pumps at work off of centrifugal force as does the Eheim.

Fluorinert has a high electrical resistance. You could put a wire carrying 30,000 volts in one side of a glass, a grounded wire an inch away in the other side and it wouldn't arc or short. Meanwhile the same setup with water would vaporize violently probably turning the glass into shrapnel.
Note: to the few of you out there that know how to generate 30,000 volts:
Don't try it.
You can submerge your computer in it if you wanted to and it would run fine. (People have tested this.) Whats this mean to you? If it springs a leak, the only hazard your computer faces is overheating from lack of coolant.

Fluorinert is crystal clear and odorless.

Fluorinert will work in extreme environments. We use it to cool aircraft electronics at altitudes of 28,000 to 33,000 feet using outside air to cool the radiator. This means the liquid will get extremely cold. Fluorinert's freezing and boiling point varies depending on type. The pour temperatures vary from -101ºC to 215ºC. This could be great for those who want to include a freezer, compressor, peltier cooling liquid through a water block, or dry ice in their liquid cooling setup.
Note: Liquid nitrogen can cool fluorinert outside of is operational temperatures and cause it to gel.

Two words: Non-flammable.

Almost* nothing biological can grow or live in it. I think they may have found one single cell organism that can survive in it. But nothing I've ever or will ever come in contact with will live in it.

Relatively non-toxic. If it spills on you the main concern in some environments is frostbite from rapid evaporation. It won't hurt your eye's, and if you breath it wont kill you. If you get it in your eyes, the main concern is dehydration. It will evaporate very quickly and take the fluid naturally in your eyes with it. This fluid naturally in your eyes allows dust and particles in the air to be wiped away without harm. So this is bad.

I could guess what you're wondering now.
So, if this stuff is so great why isn't everyone using it?

Well, remember when I said this stuff is heavy? The cheapest I've found it is $16 (USD) per pound. This comes out to $225 per gallon.
It also evaporates faster then anything I've ever seen. I saw someone accidentally spill quart into the open air 30 feet off the ground on a 100ºF day. It never hit the ground. Basically this stuff evaporates at several times the rate of alcohol at room temperature. It will also evaporate on a very cold day.
So, this added to it's leakage rate means you could easily be topping off your system once per month or so and that gets expensive.

Note:As I pointed out before these are completely synthetic products. They are more then likely unlike anything you've previously come into contact with.
While handling a face shield and non-porteous gloves should be worn.
If you do decide to use Fluorinert know what you are doing.
I recommend first looking it up in a MSDS. This is available online. Print it out and keep it handy. If an accident occurs this'll be the only way most hospitals will know what to treat you or your little ones for. Also hit 3M just for regular info.

Note²: If you plan on using any plastic in a system containing fluorinert plear refer to fluorinerts MSDS and look at all technical data published by 3M on it, also search the web for additional information. This means you don't want to put it in a plastic pump you want to keep and it will void the unit's warranty. This is because fluorinert reacts (eats) plasticizers.
Also I said before, fluorinert is heavy and that it is sold by it's weight. Do the math, this stuff is very close to the weight of concrete per square foot. This means it is not cheap.

Although I centered this around Fluorinert, both it and PerFluorcarbon are very similar. Closer then either and water.

http://www.houseofhelp.com/v2/showthread.php?t=25976&highlight=fluorinert
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Some of my "words of wisdom"

-You won’t find a cheap medium that is nice for our purposes. Things like transformer oil and vegetable oils at the other end, work but not very good by far. Horrible heat transfer properties and get extremely thick fast when get cold, some natural oils decompose and smell with time. The other end is high tech mediums like Fluorinert but those get very expensive, about $225 per gallon. Keep in mind most oils dissolve rubber, and your capacitors on your motherboard are sealed with a rubber ring. You need to cover them with something to protect them if you use oil. Yes there are substances that will not attack rubber, or so they claim. Very few in this field though, opticool doesn't, or so it claims. It was tested by a member here do a search on it. From what I remember he had no problems with it. But its not cheap either.

After a lot of research I settled on Opticool. If you want to do this Opticool is the way to go:
Opticool Brochure
Opticool MSDS
Opticool Technical Properties

-Also keep in mind that a lot of these oils and fluorinerts will suck the plasticizer out of your motherboard and most plastics, making them brittle.

READ THIS -CAUTION- READ THIS
-Be VERY careful with UV. Some oils and fluorinerts react and break down when exposed to UV rays. UV rays as in the neon and cold cathode lights people put in their computers to make thing glow in the dark. Oxygen doesn't do them well either so seal it up well and if not full to the top replace the air with something else like dry nitrogen. Oxygen will cause the break down of the oils and fluorinerts over time.
READ THIS -CAUTION- READ THIS

-Also keep in mind that if you ever want to swap parts you will have big problems. Your computer will never 100% free of the medium. Say good bye to the warranty, they wont take it back, and cleaning this crap off is virtually impossible.

-Use all metal piping and enclosures and weld or braze it together. If you use anything else fluorinert will leak right though your walls. And if oil it will leak in joints at least. One of the BIGGEST problems with oils and so on is low surface tension. Given the time a drop of oil will flatten itself to almost if not the thickness of one of its molecules. How thin depends on the oils surface tension but in oils its very low. Same goes for fluorinerts form what I know. What does that mean for you? If you have a clack or opening where air would not leak this stuff will. If you do some reading on these projects in a few days things can get very very messy.

-Make sure to get a chemical pump that can handle the medium and has the power to push it. Fluorinert will makes your normal plastic pump crumble like a rice cake, and wont have the power to pump thick cold oil. Either looking for an extremely powerful pump, large and loud, or an all metal chemical pump, also wont be quite probably.

-And one last thing. Temperatures. Make SURE your capacitors are rated for whatever temperature you will be running them at. They do fail if you go below. Find what capacitors are on your board, make sure you are good there, if not then go buy some that are rated for -70c (very cheap) and swap all the capacitors on your motherboard and cards.



-I looked for a long time and did not find any truly cheap medium that had a nice viscosity for pumping, good heat transfer properties, non harmful/toxic or deadly, non destructive to rubbers and plastics. Opticool as as close as I came to what we need. There are many other problems to deal with as well that are not cheap. If you want to be cool be prepared to dish out a lot of money or stop this project while you still didn't waste any money or time

-I wanted this for the cool factor as well. I wanted to have a window and see evaps on my cpu and 2 gpus and the whole thing swimming in a clear fluid. No dice bud. Why? Because you will get a lot of condensation on the window. You will have to wrap the whole thing in insulation. No window. You could make a double plane window if cold enough would have to pump hot air between the two planes but like I said this is going to get ugly very fast. You need to fabricate these windows, you need to pump the air inside, you need to heat the air, that all runs in to more electricity costs and becomes unpractical very fast since there are a lot of things like this and they all add up very fast. Sure there are solutions but they require more money, more fabrication, more time. This type of project is about as practical as a 5 stage -170C cascade ran 24/7. That and if you are using fluorinert no window at all.

And lastly PLEASE read all these articles and write ups about peoples experiences doing this. This will save you a lot of problems. You don’t want to learn on your own mistakes, its way too expensive. Learn on mistakes of others.

http://hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=802563&page=1&pp=20&highlight=Submerged
http://braineater.kicks-***.tv/worklog.html
http://www.overclockers.com/Tips187/

http://www.hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=851060&page=2&pp=20
http://www.hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=851060
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?t=52004
http://www.short-media.com/review.php?r=222
http://www.madshrimps.be/?action=getarticle&number=1&artpage=1178&articID=296

Good Luck :toast:
 
I think I'll try reading that at another time then 1:35am :eek:

Ok well, how does a chiller work then? :) :p

(Could I fit one on a watercooling loop? That's the main problem with my loop, the ambient room temperature is really hot :()
 
DarkLord7854 said:
I think I'll try reading that at another time then 1:35am :eek:

Ok well, how does a chiller work then? :) :p

(Could I fit one on a watercooling loop? That's the main problem with my loop, the ambient room temperature is really hot :()

A chiller works like a DD unit does except it cools your WCing loops coolant instead of you CPU directly.

You can fit one in your loop just fine except I would get rid of any acrylic parts in it and you have to insulate it as well. You also ussually use an alchohol based coolant.
 
I see, so it's like a radiator? o_O
(With sub-zero temps?)

Got any links per-chance? :bday:

Or explain the concept of the chiller and everything? Thanks :)
 
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