Look out R420, NV40 has 16 pipelines & 210 transistors!!!

[OC-Master]

Re: Re: Re: Look out R420, NV40 has 16 pipelines & 210 transistors!!!

ha, thats extremely funny coming from you. remember this thread you started? NV30 is King! Of Graphics Cards. Set To Have 125M Transistors, Twice Speed GF4!

LOL. i wouldnt start out this time like you did last time.

oh yeah, and oc550, i know it will matter to some people, but it wont matter to you.

LOL..

Dont tempt me


OC-Master

 

[micamica1217]

Re: Re: Look out R420, NV40 has 16 pipelines & 210 transistors!!!

From these specs, ATI better get there act together or its gonna be a rape from the competition I love my ATI company but 16-pipeline engine will smoke everything.

realy? how so? and please don't be simplistic in your reply.


EDIT: AS LONG AS THE VPU REALLY IS 16X1 and not 8X2, THEN IT LOOKS LIKE I KNOW WHICH CARD I'M GETTING LOL 8x2 is just marketing craps. who wants additional multi textured units when they can have real pipelines

again....realy? how so? and please don't be simplistic in your reply.


OC-Master [/B]

mica

 

[veyx]

Ok pplz. Hold on a sec.

You do know that the R420's core is just a re-vamped 8 piped 96XT core right??

Now how far have pplz gotten just a regular 96 to. I personally have seen over 600mgz plenty of times.

Not to mention that this is a revised version! Remember how many mgz the 98 got over the 97.

When the R420 comes out, I wont be suprised to see 600mgz on the core.

Plus the NV40 has 25% more transisters. Ie atleast 25% hotter running that the R420. Good luck trying to get a good OC on that T-bird

Just because it uses low-k does not mean it is a boosted 9600 core...

 

[JCLW]

re: transistor count:

Apparently ATI only counts "logic" transistors while nV counts all transistors in the core when they give transistor counts. So just because the official ATI count is lower doesn't automatically mean it has less transistors then an nV chip.

 

[snyper1982]

to be honest, i really couldnt care less how many transistors my card has, all i care about is how well it performs. transistors, pipelines, none of it means much to me, as long as my games look and perform good, thats all that really counts.

 

[OC-Master]

Re: Re: Re: Look out R420, NV40 has 16 pipelines & 210 transistors!!!

mica

Towards your first response,
-It's very clear that an 8 pipeline engine will not match even the simplest 16 pipeline engine card. I dont need to explain my self or how pipelines work, I'm sure you can figure that out. If you want a good example from an ATI point, compare the Radeon 9600 XT and the good ole Radeon 9700 Pro. The 9700 Pro still wipes the floor clean even thou the 9600 XT is more complex and is more than 75% faster in clockspeeds.

-Your second quote quotes again towards a pipeline engine. there is no comparison between an 8 pipeline and 16 pipeline engine. The only factor that could possibly come between the two is MHz and according to most sources, te R420 isnt supposed to be more than 500MHz.

Even at 300MHz, a 16 pipeline engine would overpower a 500MHz 8 pipeline engine.


OC-Master

 

[micamica1217]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Look out R420, NV40 has 16 pipelines & 210 transistors!!!

Towards your first response,
-It's very clear that an 8 pipeline engine will not match even the simplest 16 pipeline engine card. I dont need to explain my self or how pipelines work, I'm sure you can figure that out. If you want a good example from an ATI point, compare the Radeon 9600 XT and the good ole Radeon 9700 Pro. The 9700 Pro still wipes the floor clean even thou the 9600 XT is more complex and is more than 75% faster in clockspeeds.

-Your second quote quotes again towards a pipeline engine. there is no comparison between an 8 pipeline and 16 pipeline engine. The only factor that could possibly come between the two is MHz and according to most sources, te R420 isnt supposed to be more than 500MHz.

Even at 300MHz, a 16 pipeline engine would overpower a 500MHz 8 pipeline engine.


OC-Master

sorry, but you don't know what your talking about.......

example:

let's say the new ATI chip is a 8x2 pipeline card.
and it can do 2 text units and 2 FP units per pipe.......

now the new NV chip is a 16x1 pipeline card.
and it can do 1 text unit or 1 FP unit per pipe......

if both chips were running at the same speed (let's just say they are) and you needed to run 16 text units and 16 FP units....
you will only need one clock for the ATI chip, yet two clocks for the nVidia chip.

now what were you saying again???????

edit: my point is that it is far more then just the speed of the chip or the amount of pipelines....it is also just how much each pipeline can do....as well as many more factors that will not be stated untill the chips can be tested with all games/benchmarks and other programs.

also, while I agree that if nVida does pull another fast one, and gives us a 8x2....unless they redid the the way it handles FPs, it could be another sad year for nVidia.
yet again, let's just wait and see just what both IHV's will do when the new cards come out......you see, I feal that nVidia is once again, hypeing the new chip, far more then just what it can do.....
and do you realy think nVidia is even able to go from a 4 pipeline chip to a 16 pipeline chip in just 6 months????

mica

 

[Evnas]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Look out R420, NV40 has 16 pipelines & 210 transistors!!!

The 9700 Pro still wipes the floor clean even thou the 9600 XT is more complex and is more than 75% faster in clockspeeds.

The comparison is flawed. The 9700 Pro has a much wider bus width, which helps a lot (as seen in the comparison of a 9700np vs a 9500 Pro).

And with the complexity of the chip, if the make it a 16 pipeline unit, then most likely it will put of large amounts of heat, and thus will not be able to atain high clock speeds. Put ontop of that of that the fact that there will be at least one product refresh with the same design, which means they will leave headroom to be able to push the clockspeed higher, and thus the stock speeds will be even lower.

Suddenly its not looking like just 500Mhz, is it?

 

[OC-Master]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Look out R420, NV40 has 16 pipelines & 210 transistors!!!

The comparison is flawed. The 9700 Pro has a much wider bus width, which helps a lot (as seen in the comparison of a 9700np vs a 9500 Pro).

And with the complexity of the chip, if the make it a 16 pipeline unit, then most likely it will put of large amounts of heat, and thus will not be able to atain high clock speeds. Put ontop of that of that the fact that there will be at least one product refresh with the same design, which means they will leave headroom to be able to push the clockspeed higher, and thus the stock speeds will be even lower.

Suddenly its not looking like just 500Mhz, is it?

Actually, you have a good point. The perfect comparison would be the performance difference between the Radeon 9500 and Radeon 9500 Pro which is ALOT!


OC-Master

 

[Evnas]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Look out R420, NV40 has 16 pipelines & 210 transistors!!!

Actually, you have a good point. The perfect comparison would be the performance difference between the Radeon 9500 and Radeon 9500 Pro which is ALOT!


OC-Master

Again, flawed The 9500np lacked some features (memory compression related i believe) due to the lack of the 4 extra pipes. In the act of disabling those, they also disabled those features as well as the core was originally designed with 8 pipes in mind, not 4 (the 9500 series was simply a "fill in" due to the .13 micron, and thus 9600 series, not being mature enough in their opinion for production)

 

[OC-Master]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Look out R420, NV40 has 16 pipelines & 210 transistors!!!

Again, flawed The 9500np lacked some features (memory compression related i believe) due to the lack of the 4 extra pipes. In the act of disabling those, they also disabled those features as well as the core was originally designed with 8 pipes in mind, not 4 (the 9500 series was simply a "fill in" due to the .13 micron, and thus 9600 series, not being mature enough in their opinion for production)

But as you can see, it roughly shows what exactly happens with the difference between an 8 pipeline card and 4 pipeline card. The same will most obviously be seen with a 16 pipeline card and 8 pipeline card.

nVidia is also using 1200MHz memory where as ATI is using 1000MHz memory so they have the memory bandwidth edge as well.

I expect that the R420 is just going to be a filler card untill ATI can get the R430 and R450 out the door.

I'm thinking ATI is about to do what nVidia did with the GeForceFX 5800 Ultra.


OC-Master

 

[micamica1217]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Look out R420, NV40 has 16 pipelines & 210 transistors!!!

But as you can see, it roughly shows what exactly happens with the difference between an 8 pipeline card and 4 pipeline card. The same will most obviously be seen with a 16 pipeline card and 8 pipeline card.

nVidia is also using 1200MHz memory where as ATI is using 1000MHz memory so they have the memory bandwidth edge as well.

I expect that the R420 is just going to be a filler card untill ATI can get the R430 and R450 out the door.

I'm thinking ATI is about to do what nVidia did with the GeForceFX 5800 Ultra.


OC-Master

while I understand were you are coming from, your ideas are still flawed.

please read my origonal reply to you, for a better understanding of just what I mean when I say....it's more then just the amount of pipes.

mica

 

[Sentential]

Either way we are giving ATi and Nvidia too little credit.

Since ATi is deadset right now, and dosnt appear to be panicking....IMHO somethins up.

If Nvidia really had a 16x1 card, ATi would be scrambling something together (ie 9600XT).

Since ATi seems very unconcerned and Nvidia boisterious, this leads me to believe that ATi is calling their bluff.

I mean come on, if you ran ATi and got word that xxx was gonna kick the crap outta ur product wouldnt you do something????

This and the fact that Nvidia is having alot of fabrication problems and decided to use TSMC instead of IBM , really makes you wonder.

Maybe the NV40 will be the final nail in the coffin that will force em in the #2 spot for a loooong time.

[rant] Serves em right for screwing me with that GOD FORSAKEN 5200FXu. As much as I like Nvida, I dont think I can ever truly forgive them. Here's to $160 down the tubes That should been my W/C setup money [/rant]

I'm thinking ATI is about to do what nVidia did with the GeForceFX 5800 Ultra.

How so?? The 5800 was all bandwith an no go.

I know my logic is often flawed by associating to very unrelated things. Still I think that something is definatly wrong. I may not completely understand processor achetecture very well, but I have a very good sense of things.

I honest dont feel as though Nvidia has anything to offer.(which is very bad). I can atleast see the good in things like Prescott. Eventhough its getting a rough start, I really feel as though it can become a real powerhouse when they work out the bugs. The same thing goes with the 64s. Although Microsoft is slowing up for Intel, they will have to cave in eventually.

This being said, I really dont see much of a future for Nvidia unless they radically change its outlook, both in design and company vision. Nvidia thinks for some reason that pplz will pay for features (like .13, CinemaFX, PCI-express, DDR2) and not quality. What happened to AINSO and AA or just flat out DX9 compatability???????

Plus I think they are greatly underestimating ATi. IMHO they see the NV30 debocle as a fluke. Something that they screwed up that allowed ATi to sneak ahead. However ATi is fundamentally a different company that speaks with actions not words.

I mean, hell we had no idea that the R420 was ready for production months ago. God only knows what ATi's got up their sleave.

One thing is for damn sure. They are gonna fight hard to keep their market share!

 

[Neeseius]

Havent read this hole thread but I can tell you that to call this next release of cards by Nvidia and ATI the next generation is a big mistake. This is appearent by the obvious limitatations under DX9 and current design in the games. Someone mention DDR3 memory? they havent even gotten DDR2 to work as well as DDR1 because as I said no software will take advantage of it. Nvidia's mistake is they always look towards the future, the future is for the future and now is for now. Now one is going to buy a 500 dollar video card now expecting it to be a smart buy two years later when the technology in the card is finally widely accepted, because then there will be the next gen cards twice as fast and half the money with even more capabilities. Putting DDR2 memory on cards now is not smart and costly, putting ddr3 memory on cards in a couple of months would be out right retarted unless software are designed with that hardware in mind. Not only this but the entire architecture of the AGP port and motherboard is about to replaced anyway, as you can see already all this 8xagp crap is just a way to get around the already obsolete architecture of current motherboard designs. The AGP and PCI port can only accept so much information and the bus can only transfer so much information. No, these cards are not the next gen cards at all, but ATI and Nvidia may lead you to believe that. We must wait for a new architecture and DX10

 

[Sentential]

Thankyou!!!

Couldnt have said it better. Nvidia is completly out of it. If I was the CEO of that company I would beat the market analysis guys to death with their own severed limbs.

Those guys must be blowin smoke up the CEOs ***. There is no way in hell that Nvidia is gonna sell several million NV40s next year.

I guess the decided to go with the "Our new product dosnt suck as bad as our old one does!!"

Does Nvidia actually think that one card will be the crutch they need to make good with the OEMs again??!?!?

 

[Neeseius]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Look out R420, NV40 has 16 pipelines & 210 transistors!!!

But as you can see, it roughly shows what exactly happens with the difference between an 8 pipeline card and 4 pipeline card. The same will most obviously be seen with a 16 pipeline card and 8 pipeline card.

nVidia is also using 1200MHz memory where as ATI is using 1000MHz memory so they have the memory bandwidth edge as well.

I expect that the R420 is just going to be a filler card untill ATI can get the R430 and R450 out the door.

I'm thinking ATI is about to do what nVidia did with the GeForceFX 5800 Ultra.


OC-Master

Woe Woe correct me if im wrong, but numbers on paper dont mean shiat(5800U)! the 9600XT is STILL behind the 9500Pro depsite the 9500pros 4pipeline, not only this but the only Nvidia card that can beat their 9500pro is their flagship card, the 5900 series. This is also appearent as the 9800XT is significantly faster than the 5950 in most areas and the 5950s numbers are higher is every aspect.

The people working at Nvidia arent as smart as you might think, look at their marketing strategy! Their 5700U is mroe money than the 5900XT and the 5900XT is way faster!

 

[OC-Master]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Look out R420, NV40 has 16 pipelines & 210 transistors!!!

Woe Woe correct me if im wrong, but numbers on paper dont mean shiat(5800U)! the 9600XT is STILL behind the 9500Pro depsite the 9500pros 4pipeline, not only this but the only Nvidia card that can beat their 9500pro is their flagship card, the 5900 series.

Um, The 9600XT is the 4 pipeline card and the good ole Radeon 9500 Pro is the 8 pipeline card, you got it backwards and yes obviously, the 9500 Pro is gonna be faster because it is 8 pipelines.

Good news for ATI on rumor front, hence according to the latest rumors, ATI is no longer using GDDR2 and instead using GDDR3 which means the memory must be clocked faster than 1000MHz stock.

http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=14433

Currently, the only GDDR3 memory on the market for 2004 is Samsungs 1200MHz 256-bit 256MB configurations. Looks like ATI and nVidia will have the same amount of memory bandwidth to play with this year.


OC-Master

 

[Sentential]

Plus we all know that ATi's core is more effective at using bandwith. Its almost like giving an AthlonXP an 800mgz bus and true dual-channel capability.

If the XPs had that they would stomp Intel at much higer speeds. (ie A64 / FX)

 

[micamica1217]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Look out R420, NV40 has 16 pipelines & 210 transistors!!

Um, The 9600XT is the 4 pipeline card and the good ole Radeon 9500 Pro is the 8 pipeline card, you got it backwards and yes obviously, the 9500 Pro is gonna be faster because it is 8 pipelines.

Good news for ATI on rumor front, hence according to the latest rumors, ATI is no longer using GDDR2 and instead using GDDR3 which means the memory must be clocked faster than 1000MHz stock.

http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=14433

Currently, the only GDDR3 memory on the market for 2004 is Samsungs 1200MHz 256-bit 256MB configurations. Looks like ATI and nVidia will have the same amount of memory bandwidth to play with this year.


OC-Master

wich still doesn't explain why the NV3X's (4 pipeline card) are slower then the 9600xt (4 pipeline card) at DX9.0 games.....
yet are way faster in PS1.3 and lower shaded games.

my point is you are looking at this in a 2D way of things....when maybe you should look at the rumors as just that.....RUMORS, and incompleate rumors at best.
(or maybe you should try putting on some 3D glasses and realise that just because you ignored my reply, doesn't mean that there is far more to a graphic cards performance then just, pipelines, chip speed, and memory bandwith....

here is a reread of what I said to ya:

sorry, but you don't know what your talking about.......

example:

let's say the new ATI chip is a 8x2 pipeline card.
and it can do 2 text units and 2 FP units per pipe.......

now the new NV chip is a 16x1 pipeline card.
and it can do 1 text unit or 1 FP unit per pipe......

if both chips were running at the same speed (let's just say they are) and you needed to run 16 text units and 16 FP units....
you will only need one clock for the ATI chip, yet two clocks for the nVidia chip.

now what were you saying again???????

edit: my point is that it is far more then just the speed of the chip or the amount of pipelines....it is also just how much each pipeline can do....as well as many more factors that will not be stated untill the chips can be tested with all games/benchmarks and other programs.

also, while I agree that if nVida does pull another fast one, and gives us a 8x2....unless they redid the the way it handles FPs, it could be another sad year for nVidia.
yet again, let's just wait and see just what both IHV's will do when the new cards come out......you see, I feal that nVidia is once again, hypeing the new chip, far more then just what it can do.....
and do you realy think nVidia is even able to go from a 4 pipeline chip to a 16 pipeline chip in just 6 months????

mica

 

[Th0r]

Sorry, but i must agree with Mica.. if ATi isn't panicing then they must think that Nvidia is bluffing.....or..and this could be possiblilty... ATi could have alittle plan going on... You never know what card they could throw at us tomorrow...