mini-ITX build - need help completing build specs

[beyondinfinity]

IMO you're going overboard pricewise since you're not a gamer and your main use is Photo editing. My i5-9400F/GTX 1660 Ti system would be cheaper with an inexpensive B360 motherboard which only requires inexpensive DDR4-2666 RAM. Such a combo with 32GB of memory is just $350 at Newegg including VA sales tax, and a mini ITX GTX 1600 Super, which is way more than you need, is just another $230. 1TB NVMe M.2 drives are available at Newegg for around $100. You'll never notice the higher speed of pricier NVMe drives anyway except in benchmarks. But the Ryzen/RX 2060 system you've spec'd is certainly a nice one and it is your money.

Yeah your right, I think I'm getting more than I need. My only concern is I read somewhere that older motherboards need a BIOS update in order to work with the 3000 series Ryzen chips, and that the update needs to take place with an older cpu installed already which I have none, This doesn't make too much sense to me, but I was wondering if the X470 or B450 boards come with already upgraded BIOS (ready to go for 3000 chips)?

In any case I see that the x470 motherboards are just as expensive as the x570 itx boards so really no point going x470. I'd have to go B450 to really save over $100 and there's not much choice, I could get this one GIGABYTE B450 I AORUS PRO WIFI.

True I'm not a gamer, but my other use case is machine learning which I think the GPU (RTX 2060/2080 series) will be more important (I'm only going to use one, not interested in going dual because of the cost) Having a decent CPU and RAM for times I can't use GPU processing will be helpful (not all software for machine learning utilizes GPU). I forgot to mention also software development as well as another use case.

I'm going to stick with the CPU I chose (although considering the 2600 as well), I think its still good value/performance, but I think I'll skip the NvMe drive entirely and save money by getting an M.2 with only Sata 3 interface. From what I read, I wont notice too much of a difference. In which case I'll look at either x470 or B450 motherboards.

 

[Blaylock]

Some X470 and B450 motherboards have been pre-updated for the newer 3000 series chips but it's a bit of a gamble.

 

[Bill_Bright]

but it's a bit of a gamble.

Yeah. FTR, you have a much better "chance" (it's still a chance/gamble) of getting the most current motherboard revisions and BIOS firmware update if you buy from a retailer that has a big turnover. Hopefully Amazon or Newegg (if you make sure you buy from them and not one of their partners), or Micro Center would move product fast enough to keep getting the latest versions from the manufacturers. Buying from a smaller retailer could mean products have been sitting on the shelves and in their warehouses longer - still new but already out of date. This problem could even been seen at your local brick and mortar stores.

Firmware versions really are not a big deal as users can update them. Motherboard revisions cannot be updated.

 

[Blaylock]

The Microcenter here in Michigan was adding stickers to the boards that were updated. I've read reports of other stores doing the same. Unfortunately, ordering online doesn't allow one to see if it's been updated and you need to roll the 2d10 and see what you get.

What I'm saying is check your local store if you have one local.

 

[Bill_Bright]

The Microcenter here in Michigan was adding stickers to the boards that were updated.

Wow! That's decent. But are you sure MicroCenter was the driving force to dedicate and expend the resources ($$$) to research version numbers for all those products, print and then to apply applicable stickers? Or did the board makers send a shipment of new boards with the stickers already attached to the packaging? I've seen such stickers on lots of different products - likely there because the updated products came out before all the pre-printed packaging for the older version was used up. Or it could have even been a marketing ploy - you know, for the "New and Improved" effect.

I have never been in a Micro Center. I wish there was one in my area.

Unfortunately, ordering online doesn't allow one to see if it's been updated

True. But to my point, the big on-line retailers like to run distribution centers, not storage warehouses. So they tend to move product quickly.

Regardless where you buy, your point remains the same - its a gamble. This is one reason I don't buy cutting-edge technology products as soon as it comes out.

 

[Blaylock]

I didn't actually see the Microcenter employees adding the BIOS updated stickers, but was told they were doing it. I suppose it's possible that the manufacturers were doing it, but then I don't believe the stickers would have all matched the way they did. I don't really know. My point was simply that if you go to a brick and mortar store you might see what BIOS a particular board is. Also, many of these stores (MC, Fry's, BB via Geeksquad) will update them for you (sometimes for a fee). Where as if you buy online you'll need to utilizes your own resources.

 

[Bill_Bright]

All good points.

That said, I think if a user is the type to buy a motherboard (instead of a fully assembled computer), they should be willing to flash the BIOS. The task sounds difficult and intimidating, but these days, it really isn't.

And while it is true flashing the BIOS has the potential to "brick" the motherboard, the odds of that happening is extremely rare these days too. We've done literally many 100s of BIOS updates and it has been perhaps 10 years since one failed and even then, it was easy to roll-back and recover without "bricking" the board. In fact, the only "brick" I had must have been 25+ years ago when a co-worker tripped over the power cord in the middle of the flash. But even then we were able to recover by ordering a new EEPROM from SuperMicro.

RTFM - flashing the BIOS is in there.

 

[beyondinfinity]

I flashed bios plenty of times. Difference here is I have no prior amd cpu available to do it. (coming from Intel here) unless there's a way to do it using the unsupported cpu

 

[trents]

I flashed bios plenty of times. Difference here is I have no prior amd cpu available to do it. (coming from Intel here) unless there's a way to do it using the unsupported cpu

Actually, on some of the new motherboards there is a way to flash the bios without a CPU if I'm not mistaken.

 

[Bill_Bright]

Yeah, see this.

 

[Blaylock]

As an early adopter myself I ran into this. I created this post to help others out as well. Post #3 lists all the boards (at the time of posting) that allowed a BIOS flash without a CPU.

https://www.overclockers.com/forums...zen-3000-without-a-Zen(-)-CPU?highlight=ryzen

 

[beyondinfinity]

My build is almost complete, just waiting on the case to arrive. In the meantime keeping an eye out for deals on ram and or motherboard.

A few final questions.

I know someone above mentioned going DDR4-3600 for Ryzen, but according to this article they say 3200 CL16 is the best choice for value
And 3600MHz CL16 for performance - however 32GB at that speed is more expensive and I can't justify the gains it will bring.
https://www.cgdirector.com/best-memory-ram-amd-ryzen-cpus-3600-3700x-3900x/
Any thoughts? I think 3200 at CL14 would be even better.

Might also reduce the ram to 16GB total, I think 32GB is a bit too much even for ML work. My workstation at work is only 16GB and I've found it to be adequate.

PCPartPicker Part List

CPU: AMD Ryzen 5 3600X 3.8 GHz 6-Core Processor (Purchased For $249.99)
CPU Cooler: Noctua NH-U9B SE2 37.86 CFM CPU Cooler (Purchased For $0.00)
Motherboard: Asus ROG Strix B450-I Gaming Mini ITX AM4 Motherboard ($195.17 @ Amazon Canada)
Memory: Corsair Vengeance LPX 32 GB (2 x 16 GB) DDR4-3200 Memory ($190.99 @ PC-Canada)
Storage: Western Digital Blue 1 TB M.2-2280 Solid State Drive (Purchased For $119.00)
Case: NCASE M1 Mini ITX Tower Case (Purchased For $210.00)
Power Supply: Corsair SF 600 W 80+ Gold Certified Fully Modular SFX Power Supply (Purchased For $149.99)
Custom: ASUS GeForce RTX 2060 Super 8G EVO GDDR6 Dual-Fan Edition VR Ready HDMI DisplayPort DVI-D Graphics Card (DUAL-RTX2060S-8G-EVO) (Purchased For $539.00)
Total: $1654.14
Prices include shipping, taxes, and discounts when available
Generated by PCPartPicker 2020-01-06 20:53 EST-0500

 

[Blaylock]

Maybe I'm reading this wrong (it's still really early here) but You will not be able to fit that CPU cooler or GPU in the Case you chose. From what I'm reading from the case specs.

[oldtable]CPU Cooler|130mm (with side bracket in place and no fan mounted)
GPU|12.5" (slots 1 & 2), 11" (slot 3)
PSU|SFX PSU or 160mm ATX PSU with short GPU/140 mm ATX PSU with long GPU[/table]

The CPU Cooler listed height is 160mm and the GPU length is 580mm.


As far as your ram, keep in mind that mITX boards do not have the extra slots to add ram so once you buy you're stuck with that amount unless you completely replace the old ram. (I'll be back with ram specs for Ryzen once I find them again)

EDIT: OK looks like 3600Mhz is the suggested speed with Zen2 to keep the IF from decoupling into a 2:1 ratio. (Sauce)

Here's a snipit from the article by Shawn Jennings (Johan45).

AMD has made some significant changes that need some explaining. Speed and compatibility are no longer an obstacle but that has come with a caveat. Once the memory speed surpasses 3600 MHz the memory bus and infinity fabric “decouple” and operate in a 2:1 ratio, this is automatic. What that means is that the memory could be running at 4000 MHz (2000 MHz real) but the memory controller will be running at 1000 MHz. This causes a jump in latency and a slight performance hit.

The article goes on listing specs from the AMD provided Reviewers guide that he was provided for the review.

The following list comes from the reviewer’s guide and explains what’s going on when the memory is set above 3600 MHz.

• By default: memory clock (mclk), memory controller clock (uclk), and Infinity Fabric clock (fclk) are fixed in a 1:1:1 ratio until DDR4-3600.
  • Example: DDR4-3200 conveys a 1600MHz memory clock, 1600MHz Infinity Fabric Clock, and 1600MHz memory controller clock.
• Crossing any speed above DDR4-3600 will automatically enable 2:1 mclk:uclk mode.
  • Fabric Clock will be automatically configured to 1800MHz in 2:1 mode.
  • Example: DDR4-4400 conveys a 2200MHz memory clock, 1800MHz Infinity Fabric clock, and 1100MHz memory controller clock.
  • Users may optionally override the automatic 2:1 mode to maintain a 1:1:1 ratio but will likely find an upper limit as they approach DDR4-3800. This will vary from part to part.
• Enabling 2:1 mode crosses clock domain boundaries, imparting a DRAM latency penalty of approximately 9ns that may be overcome with additional memory clocks, higher CPU frequencies, or sub-timing adjustments.
• The Infinity Fabric clock (fclk) always remains freely adjustable in 33MHz steps.

 

[beyondinfinity]

Maybe I'm reading this wrong (it's still really early here) but You will not be able to fit that CPU cooler or GPU in the Case you chose. From what I'm reading from the case specs.

[oldtable]CPU Cooler|130mm (with side bracket in place and no fan mounted)
GPU|12.5" (slots 1 & 2), 11" (slot 3)
PSU|SFX PSU or 160mm ATX PSU with short GPU/140 mm ATX PSU with long GPU[/table]

The CPU Cooler listed height is 160mm and the GPU length is 580mm.


As far as your ram, keep in mind that mITX boards do not have the extra slots to add ram so once you buy you're stuck with that amount unless you completely replace the old ram. (I'll be back with ram specs for Ryzen once I find them again)

EDIT: OK looks like 3600Mhz is the suggested speed with Zen2 to keep the IF from decoupling into a 2:1 ratio. (Sauce)

Here's a snipit from the article by Shawn Jennings (Johan45).



The article goes on listing specs from the AMD provided Reviewers guide that he was provided for the review.

CPU Cooler will fit, height is actually 125mm https://noctua.at/en/nh-u9b-se2/specification

Also see example completed build in the same case

https://imgur.com/xfJ3R

I'm pretty sure the graphics card will also fit https://smallformfactor.net/forum/threads/ncase-m1-v6-gpu-compatibility-list.11305/

Also thanks for the additional details on the RAM - does it also mean anything below 3600 will run 1:1 ?

 

[trents]

Yes, anything at or below 3600 mhz will run 1:1. That's why going higher than 3600 mhz is a questionable tactic unless you go high enough to offset the performance hit of the decoupling.

 

[Blaylock]

Something else to be aware of, in case you aren't, is once you start approaching speeds in access of 4000Mhz you may have issues with capacity. In other words your CPU might be able to handle 4200Mhz with 16Gbs of memory but not 32Gbs. At 32Gbs you might only get 3200Mhz speeds. There is a limit to what the CPU IMC can handle. Sorry I don't have exacting numbers for you. I'm pretty sure its a case by case just like CPU overclocking.

 

[trents]

That cooler is not listed as being compatible with AM4.

Does Noctua offer an supplementary adapter to make it work with AM4?

 

[beyondinfinity]

That cooler is not listed as being compatible with AM4.

Does Noctua offer an supplementary adapter to make it work with AM4?

Yes, they offer a free AM4 mounting kit with proof of purchase of amd cpu or motherboard and photo or proof of purchase of the cooler