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my experience so far on making another attempt at having another go at linux.

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(G{in}[AK)TION]

Member
Joined
Apr 14, 2011
In case some of you may or may not know, Luke and Linus are daily driving linux on their personal desktop computers. And from what I gathered, They are doing this to see what the experience is like for newbies coming to linux and will not be getting any special help from people like wendell (level1techs) or anthony (tech guy at LMG).

Fascinating that this happens around the same time I am actively trying to come to Linux.

Personally for me, I was trying openSUSE Tumbleweed because it was running everything fine right up until I was having issues trying to access my NAS. After what I went through in this support thread, I just "walked" and went over to debian 11 where I know the essentials will work. I aim to have linux as my secondary computer since I know linux has only some RGB support so far and VR at least works in linux.

Now I would also post links to the threads I made on openSUSE forums but as of 8:45pm 11/10/2021, It appears their forums are down atm. Personally, I am not sorry about that. or maybe "its working for them".

-anyway-

This brings me back to the times in the past when I actually DID try to RTM only to feel like some helpless idiot who should just go back to windows because at the time, I felt like I had to be "born with the linux chad genetics" in order to actually use linux. There are also some other things that I recall that I just outright did not like and found tedious.

Two of which I can recall right now.

1. I have a game drive. In windows, I would just smack a drive letter to it and it always mounted every time i fired up the computer. OS drive was on the smaller NVME drive. Simple, straight forward, no need to get technical. in Linux, It appears that I would be mounting this drive to a folder? BTW this is in debian 11 KDE but I also experienced this in openSUSE Tumbleweed KDE as well. So i figured the most sensible thing to do is mount this in the /mnt folder. So something like /mnt/sda1. But debian wont let me and says i need to be "root". The only place I can mount the drive is in "/media/gak". I cannot even make another folder in the media folder. I have to fire up the terminal to accomplish a task that is technical in linux but not in windows.

This is a secondary internal drive that has been screwed into the case with the chances of being upgraded months to years down the road and will be used for something like games, storage, running programs from, etc.

2. Over kill on entering the root password. One example I can think of was when I was trying to get my drive mounted and going, I kept getting asked a password to mount a drive every time I booted to the desktop environment. Maybe it was encrypted? I dont think I recall telling debian to encrypt my game drive. I eventually got it to stop but I am unsure how i did it. Installing something like steam also requires entering the password approximately 4 times. In windows, it would ask maybe once or twice "do you want to run this program" and you would click yes. Done. I recall linus torvalds getting touchy about the root password being asked for way to often in openSUSE. it was fixed for some things he complained about but not all. Something about his daughter not being able to add the schools printer because openSUSE was asking for a password to add the printer.

I find it difficult asking for help. I hate asking having to ask for help. I hate having to try to describe to someone who is a terminal chad how to do something in linux using only the GUI and not the terminal. As I type this out, I figured just dont bother spell checking it and click "submit new thread". Like screaming in the void out of frustration. But I still spell check my post here because I am hoping some linux developer spots this and thinks something like "hmm he has a point. lets fix our distro and cut out it with the RTM approach".

Failing over and over at trying to explain what the problem is or what I am going through reminds me of something a friend of mine once said "sometimes having a vocal conversation over VOIP or in person is better than typing it all out". This reminds me of the bible. Different translations but same message its trying to convey. Maybe there should be a linux bible and linux apologetics.

I did tell this to another (using the british anonymous phrasing here) "good friend of mine" but he said, and I paraphrase, "then how will the people find help if they cant read what we just vocally talked about". Cant argue against that. But maybe we should just make a transcript or record our conversation?

Hopefully I will fix the issue I am having with my drive. Trying to mount it in the right spot so I can run my games from it. Still have windows on my main computer but keeping linux on the secondary computer. figured this would be a good way to transition over to linux. Like how AMD brought about 64 bit. making a bridge between 32bit and 64 bit so people can go back and forth on it. Behold! almost everything is on 64 bit. And hopefully the same goes for me as I try to get into linux.
 

dfonda

Senior Golfer
Joined
Feb 25, 2004
I wish I could help but I am a bigger newb than you. I have used Ubuntu on and off for Folding at Home for years and goofed around with as much time for. I never could make it primary as I am a PC gamer.

I found this latest install of Ubuntu to be the easiest but I am not doing anything like you are. The most difficult thing was finding info to change the left mouse button from double click to single...(Preferences were moved to inside any folder) All the directions were for older versions not the 20.04 I installed.

My Wifi printer was found on its own. From making a bootable USB to having it run fah on a modern GPU only took 2.5 hours. So I was surprised at their advances.

Good luck connecting to the printer, I probably couldn't figure that out in Windows...:)
 

trents

Senior Member
Joined
Dec 27, 2008
I recently installed the Zorin OS since it has the rep of being the most Windows-like. And it pretty much is. Since the last time I fiddled with Linux they have greatly improved printer installation. The installation picked up both my printers right away without me needing to do anything. Same with the scanner function on both printers. They both work exactly like they should.
 

knoober

Member
Joined
Mar 18, 2015
I've been searching for a printer that *just works* for years so no help there. If you ask the guys who k kw Linux they claim they have no problems, but I don't believe them :)

I started with Linux because I had problems with the cost of Windows and issues with data harvesting/telemetry, and have been plugging away ever since. For mounting your drive, I believe the problem to be the mount location. The directory structure in Windows starts with C: (where Windows is installed) and assigns drive letters through Disk Management. Linux sees all storage as block devices and wants to knkw where to mount them. You chose to use /mnt (which is fine) but requires privileges to access. If you would like to mount without using sudo, then choose a directory inside your <User > directory. Everything above the user directory requires root privileges for security reasons (much like the stuff in C:\Windows\system32 is off limits unless you are admin). While it may seem excessive, it is a feature not a bug. File permissions are also an essential part of navigating the directory structure. The user does not have write permission for anything above the /home/<USER> directory.

https://linuxhandbook.com/linux-file-permissions/
I can walk you through it step by step if you like and show you how to use the fstab (file systems table) to automount if you like. Start with this link: https://www.maketecheasier.com/fstab-automount-hard-drive-linux/

The terminal can be a bit intimidating but becomes more comfortable with use and the general wisdom is that typing is faster than clicking icons in the gui. The learning curve and growing pains are real, but I find it to be much more intuitive than cmd prompt in Windows or navigating their mgmt GUIs.

TLDR: the juice is worth the squeeze, and the growing pains won't last forever. I hope you stick with it and aren't turned off by the roadblocks. Linux is very rewarding to learn and I am glad I did.

Also: if I spent a lot of time explaining things you already understand, I apologize. These are just the places I started at, and often refer back to.

Good luck :D
 
OP
(G{in}[AK)TION]

(G{in}[AK)TION]

Member
Joined
Apr 14, 2011
1. I've been searching for a printer that *just works* for years so no help there. If you ask the guys who k kw Linux they claim they have no problems, but I don't believe them :)

I started with Linux because I had problems with the cost of Windows and issues with data harvesting/telemetry, and have been plugging away ever since. For mounting your drive, I believe the problem to be the mount location. The directory structure in Windows starts with C: (where Windows is installed) and assigns drive letters through Disk Management. Linux sees all storage as block devices and wants to knkw where to mount them. 2. You chose to use /mnt (which is fine) but requires privileges to access. If you would like to mount without using sudo, then choose a directory inside your <User > directory. Everything above the user directory requires root privileges for security reasons (much like the stuff in C:\Windows\system32 is off limits unless you are admin). While it may seem excessive, it is a feature not a bug. File permissions are also an essential part of navigating the directory structure. The user does not have write permission for anything above the /home/<USER> directory.

https://linuxhandbook.com/linux-file-permissions/
I can walk you through it step by step if you like and show you how to use the fstab (file systems table) to automount if you like. Start with this link: https://www.maketecheasier.com/fstab-automount-hard-drive-linux/

3. The terminal can be a bit intimidating but becomes more comfortable with use and the general wisdom is that typing is faster than clicking icons in the gui. The learning curve and growing pains are real, but I find it to be much more intuitive than cmd prompt in Windows or navigating their mgmt GUIs.

TLDR: the juice is worth the squeeze, and the growing pains won't last forever. I hope you stick with it and aren't turned off by the roadblocks. Linux is very rewarding to learn and I am glad I did.

Also: if I spent a lot of time explaining things you already understand, I apologize. These are just the places I started at, and often refer back to.

Good luck :D

1. I recall Linus saying that his distro just found and added the printer flawlessly in his live stream. I thought that was awesome. have yet to try though since its not of major importance yet. But I do recall running into the same issue myself a while back so you are definitely not alone.

2. That is what I do not like about linux. other drives should be mounted there by default but they are not. I know of one linux distro that tried to mount a drive to my home folder when I wanted it to instead be mounted somewhere else. what happens if I mount a secondary drive? a second home folder? They should stop making it so complex and just mount drives right in the /mnt directory.

3. Only if you know what commands to enter already. And Terminal is only faster for some people but slower for others. Faster is some tasks but slower in others.

If I was to use linux out in the field or at my home for whenever I am logging into a ubiquiti airmax radio I just put together and have to login to using a static IP, GUI would be faster. At least thats what I think of it so far based on a quick google. Have yet to test this myself. As long as its got the SAME text box as it would be in windows for the ip address, then I guess I cannot complain.

Installing a program like steam in linux? maybe faster in terminal but having to enter the root password multiple times. In windows, I just run the setup program, spam click the "next button" in the steam installer, steam launches and the steam updater takes care of the rest. For discord, depending on distro, I may need to manually download some things. Although for anything else that is already made Linux native, it will either install without any babysitting the terminal or I might have to google around for what other packages I may need to manually install in the terminal. Although this is more in the territory of linux LACKING some things for some programs to function. Maybe more of the neccesary things should be installed so we dont have to deal with missing packages so often.

As for the root password being entered so many times, I want to say that I have not bothered with installing any antivirus for years because I know how to use my head well enough. Only time I dealt with windows defender was with some false positives.

I spent a few hours trying to figure out how to properly type this out so sorry if there isnt any clarity and for any spelling mistakes I made.
 

knoober

Member
Joined
Mar 18, 2015
(G{in}[AK)TION];8171440 said:
2. That is what I do not like about linux. other drives should be mounted there by default but they are not. I know of one linux distro that tried to mount a drive to my home folder when I wanted it to instead be mounted somewhere else. what happens if I mount a secondary drive? a second home folder? They should stop making it so complex and just mount drives right in the /mnt directory.
Im going to apologize in advance if this starts to sound pedantic.

This behavior is by design. I agree that it would be convenient for drives to be mounted more transparently, but the whole idea is that you get to choose where to mount your drives (incidentally there is a GUI tool called gnome-disk-utility https://www.techrepublic.com/article/how-to-edit-linux-drive-mount-point-options-using-a-gui/). As an example: say you have a 1tb HDD with 2 500gb partitions. 1 is full of games and the other is a sorted collection of music and videos. Make a directory called 'Games' in your home directory and mount the games partition at ~/home/<USER>/Games, then point your Steam library at that. You can then make a directory Media mount the second partition in /home<USER>/Media, or you could mount just the music in ~/Music and just the videos in ~/Videos...... the possibilites are endless. I understand that you just want easy access to your drive, but Linux just needs to be told how to mount it and where. This can be frustrating before you get the hang of it, but I enjoy the flexibility. I also enjoy using other filesystems besides NTFS. While different distros handle automount of USB in their own way, you will almost always have to explicitly tell the OS where to put hard drives. You can choose to use /mnt if you like (and depending on what you are doing , it is good practice), but you do not *have* to.

Although this is more in the territory of linux LACKING some things for some programs to function. Maybe more of the neccesary things should be installed so we dont have to deal with missing packages so often.

This is also a feature, not a bug. It is the reason that your iso is only around 1gb or less for Linux and 4.5gb for Windows. The idea is to only install the packages you need. Again, I understand that this could be frustrating when you want things to 'Just Work, but there are good and valid reason for a slim and streamlined OS. Some take it farther than others of course (looking at you Arch), but other distros make an effort to deliver a Windows like experience and ease the transition for new users and users who simply do not want to mess around under the hood (Zorn, Ubuntu, Linux Mint, PopOS, Manjaro). All the extra packages and framework are integrated into Windows already, but that forces developers to work in that ecosystem, which I feel is overall negative, It can be convenient though.

Again, I am not an expert and I am not trying to be pedantic or negative. I can understand why you want the functions you want. I am just a happy Linux user trying to provide a little perspective on why those things are different in Linux.
 
OP
(G{in}[AK)TION]

(G{in}[AK)TION]

Member
Joined
Apr 14, 2011
So what you are saying is that I have the freedom to mount my drives anywhere I want as long as its in the home folder under my name and anywhere else requires a terminal. Got it.

Linux is well over 1gb. I have several images here. Linux Mint Debian edition is 2GB. Ubuntu is 3gb. openSUSE tumbleweed is 4GB. Net installers I have seen usually around 150+MB. Debian 11 KDE (non free) is 3gb. Just as guilty as Windows. Well almost. Windows 10 iso is actually around 5+GB in size last I checked.
 

knoober

Member
Joined
Mar 18, 2015
(G{in}[AK)TION];8171458 said:
So what you are saying is that I have the freedom to mount my drives anywhere I want as long as its in the home folder under my name and anywhere else requires a terminal. Got it.
Not quite what I meant.The home directory can be seen like the shallow end of the pool. You still get to splash around and enjoy the water but have less risk of drowning. Above /home is like the deep end/diving board, you might want to know how to swim. Windows is like running through the sprinkler in your yard :p Mounting drives at boot only requires editing the config file at /etc/fstab. This can be done from the terminal or in a text editor, and once it is done your drive will mount where ever you have set at every boot. There is also an option to use a GUI tool as well, but would have to be installed first, unless you are using a Gnome-based desktop environment (if you are gnome-disk-utility is already installed).

Linux is well over 1gb. I have several images here. Linux Mint Debian edition is 2GB. Ubuntu is 3gb. openSUSE tumbleweed is 4GB. Net installers I have seen usually around 150+MB. Debian 11 KDE (non free) is 3gb. Just as guilty as Windows. Well almost. Windows 10 iso is actually around 5+GB in size last I checked.

I may not have been quite accurate with the 1gb statement, but it is distro dependent. As you pointed out, nearly every distro, even the bloated ones, are shipping a fair bit smaller than Windows.Linux also has a smaller footprint after installation as well. These are all high points for me. Gaming requires workarounds and some bit of fiddling, but is worth the effort even if not all games are available/supported.

I think I said before: the learning curve is real, and frustrating, but the juice is worth the squeeze IMO. You gain a far more versatile and streamlined system once you know the 'ins and outs'. It takes hours of struggle to whittle Windows services and bloat down to the point where the OS itself isn't causing unnecessary slowness, and then you might break something anyway. I hope you choose to stick with Linux, and begin having an easier time with it.
 
OP
(G{in}[AK)TION]

(G{in}[AK)TION]

Member
Joined
Apr 14, 2011
1. Not quite what I meant.The home directory can be seen like the shallow end of the pool. You still get to splash around and enjoy the water but have less risk of drowning. Above /home is like the deep end/diving board, you might want to know how to swim. Windows is like running through the sprinkler in your yard :p Mounting drives at boot only requires editing the config file at /etc/fstab. This can be done from the terminal or in a text editor, and once it is done your drive will mount where ever you have set at every boot. There is also an option to use a GUI tool as well, but would have to be installed first, unless you are using a Gnome-based desktop environment (if you are gnome-disk-utility is already installed).



2. I may not have been quite accurate with the 1gb statement, but it is distro dependent. As you pointed out, nearly every distro, even the bloated ones, are shipping a fair bit smaller than Windows.Linux also has a smaller footprint after installation as well. These are all high points for me. Gaming requires workarounds and some bit of fiddling, but is worth the effort even if not all games are available/supported.

3. I think I said before: the learning curve is real, and frustrating, but the juice is worth the squeeze IMO. You gain a far more versatile and streamlined system once you know the 'ins and outs'. It takes hours of struggle to whittle Windows services and bloat down to the point where the OS itself isn't causing unnecessary slowness, and then you might break something anyway. I hope you choose to stick with Linux, and begin having an easier time with it.

1. That is what I just said but with you also adding how unsafe it is by using your pool ananlogy. Maybe I am better off in windows.

2. First say you "linux distributions are 1gb while windows is 4gb" now you are saying "Oh well what I meant to say was that they can be any size!". And yes, Linux distributions can be any size you want them to be. Windows 10 64 bit is around, IIRC, 5.7gb in size. And It comes with everything thats enough to allow me to use it offline when I need to. I even have the freedom to download programs from one windows computer, put them on a flash drive, and walk over to the other computer thats not connected to the internet and install them from there.

3. Are you aware that if you buy a copy of windows, it does not come with this "bloatware" you talk about? I mean when I read "bloatware" I imagine buying an OEM computer like an HP or Dell and it comes with all their preinstalled programs. Lenovo, AFAIK, has not done that with their thinkpad or yoga laptops. otherwise, what exactly is this bloat ware you are talking about besides telemetry?

When I do a fresh install of windows, it does not come with the same kind of software you would see on a dell or HP computer. Now I get that if I install windows on an old D525 atom, its definitely going to run slow. But thats the processors and hard drives fault not windows. If I were to install windows on a Pentium (haswell) using a cheap SSD, I am sure there would be only few slow downs.

Based on what I have read from you, and from each distributions site, Linux is more of a operating system that heavily prioritizes security even at the cost of User Experience and probably even system stability. It seems to me that Linux distributions are more for programmers who like to tinker with things. and I am not one of them.

Well I had fun with Linux. maybe a few more distributions and if I cannot find one that works for me, I guess im going back to windows and wait another year or two before trying again.

I probably will just stop bothering looking for help because so far, I have no gotten any answers on one post I made about battlefield 4(steam) not having ping show in debian 11 KDE but indeed showing in openSUSE tubleweed when using proton GE, no useful answers on why openSUSE tumbleweed cannot access a passwordless share that allows anonymous R/W access but debian 11 can, and my lighthouses for my HTC vive not shutting down after a session of VR.
 

knoober

Member
Joined
Mar 18, 2015
(G{in}[AK)TION];8171491 said:
1. That is what I just said but with you also adding how unsafe it is by using your pool ananlogy. Maybe I am better off in windows.
That is my fault. 'Unsafe' is not what I meant to feature with that analogy. I wanted to show how learning to swim would open up greater areas like the deep end of the pool, the diving board, or even lakes and oceans. Sorry for the bad/incomplete analogy.

2. First say you "linux distributions are 1gb while windows is 4gb" now you are saying "Oh well what I meant to say was that they can be any size!". And yes, Linux distributions can be any size you want them to be. Windows 10 64 bit is around, IIRC, 5.7gb in size. And It comes with everything thats enough to allow me to use it offline when I need to. I even have the freedom to download programs from one windows computer, put them on a flash drive, and walk over to the other computer thats not connected to the internet and install them from there.
Fair enough point, but you cant really run a Windows computer offline easily either. Whether Windows or Linux, if you want to run offline, you will need to prep the system beforehand and have everything you need installed already.

3. Are you aware that if you buy a copy of windows, it does not come with this "bloatware" you talk about? I mean when I read "bloatware" I imagine buying an OEM computer like an HP or Dell and it comes with all their preinstalled programs. Lenovo, AFAIK, has not done that with their thinkpad or yoga laptops. otherwise, what exactly is this bloat ware you are talking about besides telemetry?

When I do a fresh install of windows, it does not come with the same kind of software you would see on a dell or HP computer. Now I get that if I install windows on an old D525 atom, its definitely going to run slow. But thats the processors and hard drives fault not windows. If I were to install windows on a Pentium (haswell) using a cheap SSD, I am sure there would be only few slow downs.

I am aware that Dell and others install crapware programs to generate revenue. That isnt what I mean. A base install of Windows has hundreds (267 according to https://www.blackviper.com/service-configurations/black-vipers-windows-10-service-configurations/) of services running by default. I simply do not have the time or will to understand which of these services I need and which can be shutdown to reclaim system resources. Not to mention that there is no clear way to find the mgmnt GUI without knowing it is there. My base linux install has 35 running services that I can see with one command (yes in the terminal, sorry). I can also disable with a quick command in the terminal. This is the bloat I was talking about. This lack of bloat also adds to the security of the system. There are just less services for a malware to attack, less holes to plug. In linux services can be added by the user as well. I am not aware if Windows can do that, but I am sure I wouldn't be able to understand the tutorial :D

Based on what I have read from you, and from each distributions site, Linux is more of a operating system that heavily prioritizes security even at the cost of User Experience and probably even system stability. It seems to me that Linux distributions are more for programmers who like to tinker with things. and I am not one of them.

This increased security of linux is a bit of a misunderstood idea. There are 2 core reasons for the claim of being more secure. 1 is that Windows has a larger user base and therefore more malware is targeted at the Windows ecosystem. There are just more fish in the sea for Windows malware. The other is a bit closer to your point. The way linux is designed is more difficult for malware to get a foothold. The attack surface is simply smaller because there are less services and the permission structure is tighter. I guess you could call that heavy prioritization of security, but the devs think if it as logical and practical. This is why I advised working from the /home directory until you are more comfortable with the directory structure and permissions. I am not sure I would call this security at the cost of UI/UX but I can appreciate the point.

Well I had fun with Linux. maybe a few more distributions and if I cannot find one that works for me, I guess im going back to windows and wait another year or two before trying again.

Thats the spirit :D