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Natal & Beyond...

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You're absolutely right deadbot. But here's the thing: The Xbox 360 has games that are tailored primarily to hardcore gamers, not Sunday dinner with the family. If devs start creating these natal-enhanced games, they aren't going to be the games that hardcore gamers are playing or want to play all the time. At the end of the day, it's going to be another peripheral that you probably aren't going to use if you're anything more than a casual gamer. And by casual I mean you're playing the pop-cap games that you can download from Arcade, and stuff like Katamari. Not that those are bad games, I play some Katamari from time to time myself, which might be kinda cool on natal. I still don't think it'll be a worthwhile expense, though.

Unless games start coming out for it that prove me wrong, I'll continue to be convinced that natal is nothing more than a combination of ms trying to get the motion control gimmick to snag the last few people that haven't bought a Wii, and simply putting out another peripheral to wallet-suck the gullible people.
 
You're absolutely right deadbot. But here's the thing: The Xbox 360 has games that are tailored primarily to hardcore gamers, not Sunday dinner with the family. If devs start creating these natal-enhanced games, they aren't going to be the games that hardcore gamers are playing or want to play all the time. At the end of the day, it's going to be another peripheral that you probably aren't going to use if you're anything more than a casual gamer. And by casual I mean you're playing the pop-cap games that you can download from Arcade, and stuff like Katamari. Not that those are bad games, I play some Katamari from time to time myself, which might be kinda cool on natal. I still don't think it'll be a worthwhile expense, though.

Unless games start coming out for it that prove me wrong, I'll continue to be convinced that natal is nothing more than a combination of ms trying to get the motion control gimmick to snag the last few people that haven't bought a Wii, and simply putting out another peripheral to wallet-suck the gullible people.

This.

The fact of the matter is that devs are already hard at work on the games for the 360's traditional market. They're already working on the next Gears of War, and the Dead Rising and Halo AFTER next (since the "next" one of those are already coming out soon). And they're working on Alan Wake. And they won't be taking time out to make some A-List game for Natal.

I don't even think they CAN make an A-list game for natal because it's going to take 30% of the CPU.

Although I'm sure they'll be able to make kick-*** ports of No More Heroes and Madworld...
 
I covered that in the opening post:

The entire "motion control market" is a myth.

The games Nintendo has didn't evolve because of the motion controls... they came about due to the Wii's limited processing power. You drop a Cell or a 360 processor into the Wii... and they would've come out with the same games as the 360 and the PS3... motion controls be damned.

Look at what happened with the PSP and the DS: To this date... 90% of the PSP's games are ports from the PS3 and PS2... because it had the processing power to pull it off and it was the cheapest and simplest thing for developers to do.

Whereas the DS couldn't come close to making those games. So you wound up with Brain Age, Professor Layton, Elite Beat Agents, Etc... etc...

Now get this: Microsoft already HAS the processing power.

So what do you think is going to happen? Do you think devs are going to drop what they're doing and go with the gimmick that saps up 30% of the processing power at the very hour where they're going to need it most?

"Hold off on Halo: Reach and Alan Wake until we can get them to work with Natal..."

That's not going to happen.

Like I said... Microsoft just DID the false market thing with HD-DVD.

We can't use a ~10 button controller forever :)

If it came down to 3 systems and one had hard core games AND the capability for motion control, I'm buying that, no question.

Let's face it, people WANT hardcore + motion control now. And why shouldn't they, this should be easily possible.
 
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We can't use a ~10 button controller forever :)

If it came down to 3 systems and one had hard core games AND the capability for motion control, I'm buying that, no question.

Let's face it, people WANT hardcore + motion control now. And why shouldn't they, this should be easily possible.

But I don't WANT to flail around like some lunatic on a spaz while playing my games. I want to sit in my La-Z-boy and relax with a controller in my hands and a beer on my end table.
 
Funny, I think that was one of the "points" the Natal video brought up...this would help gamers to get more exercise...;)

Seriously though. It would be a niche market. But that niche may not be as small as many think. pejsaboy said it very well, Xbox HAS games that are geared for the hardcore gamer. But it lacks in the softcore/casual department. Squarely where this is aimed. Wii has sucked this market up till now.

Edit: think of it this way..Mickey D's got sued over "making" people fat. This is M$'s way of heading that lawsuit in the future off.
 
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Let's face it, people WANT hardcore + motion control now. And why shouldn't they, this should be easily possible.

What? No they don't. Most core gamers acknowledge the fact that motion control is for the most part, a gimmick, and brings in gimmick games (look at the Wii).

Unless you mean have both of them combined, in one unit, with the option to turn it off. Which hasn't really happened yet (except for a few Sixaxis games - and look how those turned out for the most part).
 
The only thing I can see the natal being useful for is if they used it to implement head tracking. If I can get the 3d effects of head tracking then sure I'll buy one. I don't care about the motion control gimmick though. Also I doubt head tracking will be what the natal is actually used for, especially since it takes 30% of the processing power, and I see head tracking itself using increased processing power which would take up a good chunk of the xbox not actually used toward complex ai algorithms or improved graphics.
 
Saw this article over at N4G http://www.bravenewgamer.com/2010/01/the-jury-is-out-on-natal/

...and it got me thinking:

People are inherently stupid.

And people in the gaming industry are REALLY stupid. (Think Sega in the Saturn Era... Or Sony when they let Resident Evil, Final Fantasy, and Tekken walk out of the exclusivity door...)

I never bought into the hype that motion controls were the future of gaming. On the contrary... Nintendo didn't sell those 26 million Wiis because of the motion controls... it's the contrary they sold them because the limited architecture forced them to come up with innovative uses for the motion controls.

If the Wii had more horsepower, then you'd still be playing Modern Warfare, Batman Arkham Asylum, Assasin's Creed 2... and all the other multi-platform games... just like things were last generation.

But... much like the limited architecture of the Nintendo DS forced the creation of titles like Brain Age and Elite Beat Agents... the limited architecture of the Wii begot Wii Fit and Wii Sports.

So Microsoft is looking at the whole idea backwards. (So's Sony with their motion control device... for the record.)

You're aren't going to wind up with a 30-million selling game just because you have a motion controller. They seem to have forgotten they haven't even sold 30 Million systems yet.

And the people that bought a 360 have already clearly rejected the motion control gimmick outright... innovative (for the platform) titles and all.

So what the hell do they THINK is going to happen?

A case in point: The PS3 has had a limited motion controller (Six-Axis... which is also built into the Dual Shock 3) since launch.

Nobody uses it now. Nobody EVER really used it. Because they could still make Assassin's Creed, and Oblivion, and all of the other ports, and had plenty of horsepower left to make originals.

Now Sony's in the process of making a NEW motion control device... which tells me they learned nothing from the OLD motion control device. Next year will have God of War III, Gran Turismo V, a new Halo game, Battlefield Bad Company 2... and all the games that will compete with those games.

I don't see room in there for a Wii Sports... or a Wii Fit.

I don't think current generation hardware has the power to deliver REAL motion controls.

Like a football game that LITERALLY puts you in the feat of a quarterback where they could track your head movement as you scan for receivers and accurately track your arm and body movements with 100% accuracy.

We're at least two generations away from that kind of power... where it actually looks and feels like a real game.

I feel too many shades of Sega CD and 32x in all of these latter-day motion approaches..

2 Games that really deliver with motion controlls are:

-Flower: Seriously, check this game out. I downloaded it from the Sony store and it is one of the best PS3 games I have played so far. It was pretty fun trying to figure everything out too! No instruction manual. No idea of what you are supposed to do...you just figure it out. (I don't want to say much more to ruin the challenges of finding secret things.)

-Little Big Planet: I hate hate hate texting with a PSIII controller... And in this game you have to link up with other people on the internet to fully explore some levels. The motion controlls let you wiggle your body and nod your head. So it cuts down the time of texting when you just shake your head yes or no to answer questions instantly.

(Barely mentionable): God of War 1 and 2 and that stupid free running game Mirror's Edge had you crossing balance beams using the Six Axis controller. But that's all I can remember really?

By the way, great observation on how and why Nintendo came up with the Wii controllers! It was a gimmick they came up with BECAUSE of their limitations.

Note: I had all the Sega products... Master System, Genesis, Sega CD which sucked, Saturn, and Dreamcast... I had fun with them all. :)
 
If you can rely on past indicators, other than the Wii-Fit and the 2600 adapter for the ColecoVision. I really cannot even think of an add-on device that has been successful. Some examples include:

The ADAM for the ColecoVision
R.O.B for the NES
The Sega CD and 32X for the Genesis
The DD drive for the N-64
RAM expansion cartridge for the N64
The network adapters for the PS2, Gamecube and Dreamcast
The HD-DVD drive for the 360

I dunno, Personally, I wouldn't add the RAM expansion for the N64 to that list. While it may not have had the money making success Nintendo wanted, People didn't actually HATE it, or HATE that they had bought it, unlike the Sega CD and 32X, or the HD-DVD drive for the 360.

Maybe people didn't like BUYING it at the time. But everyone I know that owned a RAM expansion, LOVED it. It made some games look a bit better ( Star Wars: Pod Racer ), Added more than 2 people in multiplayer ( Perfect Dark ), and made the AI act differently in some games ( 007: Goldeneye. Which was nice, because without it, every enemey had a predefined location they would be at, and where they would walk. You quickly learned the placement of nearly EVERY enemy in the game. Even though Wikipedia has no mention of Goldeneye using the expansion pack, I swear I remember it giving the AI a bit more "randomness", mostly in terms of their locations, and the area's they'd patrol....Unless I'm thinking about "The world is not enough" for the N64....maybe you'd know? )

oh, and I LOVED the network expansion on the DreamCast. You have any Idea how many hours my friends an I put into Phantasy Star Online? God, that's one of my most played games ever. Sure, It was limited by the very few games that used it, but we still loved it.

....I think I play too many games. :D

Oh well...Back to playing Mass Effect 2 on PC. ( I too have friends in low places. I make it a priority to be friends with nearly EVERYONE that gets hired at my local Gamestop.
 
While im not sure what they really have planned for Natal in general or what the possiblites are for it... it does look intresting. Now I own a Wii, and do enjoy playing it here and there and I know even though you can sit down for 95-99% of the games with it and get minimal excersie it does make me move more, which is good.

I just think the idea of an inovative control technology that does not use a controller at all to interact with an enviroment is moving forward. Expecially since you won't be in VR. Though come out with headgear for VR + Natal.... you will now have your 360 degree of motion now for FPS type game.

It has potential but think the main purpose is to pull some of the Wii crowed over to the 360 or to the PS3 with there motion controller.

Though any type of motion controller or doing something out of the norm will be hard to accept period. Its new, its not something well known and there will be issues with it. Though if its cheap enough I'd be willing to give it a shot depending on what its capabilites are and games that I have that would use it.
 
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I think motion controls can be very complimentary to a game, I don't know how much Natal will cost and if that will be worth it but if done right it could be very cool. On the Wii the best games are the one's that use motion to compliment a game and the touches are more subtle and most importantly WORK. When people talk about holding a fake gun for FSP's...thats an extreme...I'm sure somebody will try to do that and it'll be shovelware...just like the Wii get's a ton of. Using motion control to do things like navigate the Dashboard Menus...imagine in a FPS instead of having a rifle butt button..you make a quick motion with the controller instead....using your hand to turn a safe's dial to unlock it?....ideas like that could work awesome....yes building a game around a motion gimick with no real substance won't do well....it doesn't do well now on the Wii...but some applications could be pretty cool.
 
I dunno, Personally, I wouldn't add the RAM expansion for the N64 to that list. While it may not have had the money making success Nintendo wanted, People didn't actually HATE it, or HATE that they had bought it, unlike the Sega CD and 32X, or the HD-DVD drive for the 360.

Maybe people didn't like BUYING it at the time. But everyone I know that owned a RAM expansion, LOVED it. It made some games look a bit better ( Star Wars: Pod Racer ), Added more than 2 people in multiplayer ( Perfect Dark ), and made the AI act differently in some games ( 007: Goldeneye. Which was nice, because without it, every enemey had a predefined location they would be at, and where they would walk. You quickly learned the placement of nearly EVERY enemy in the game. Even though Wikipedia has no mention of Goldeneye using the expansion pack, I swear I remember it giving the AI a bit more "randomness", mostly in terms of their locations, and the area's they'd patrol....Unless I'm thinking about "The world is not enough" for the N64....maybe you'd know? )

oh, and I LOVED the network expansion on the DreamCast. You have any Idea how many hours my friends an I put into Phantasy Star Online? God, that's one of my most played games ever. Sure, It was limited by the very few games that used it, but we still loved it.

....I think I play too many games. :D

Oh well...Back to playing Mass Effect 2 on PC. ( I too have friends in low places. I make it a priority to be friends with nearly EVERYONE that gets hired at my local Gamestop.

I personally loved the CD drive for the Genesis. Which you now have. However, I'm not like most people. Phantasy Star was about the only thing that used the network adapter for the Cast if I remember correctly.
 
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