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Need Help With My First Loop! Is My Pump Strong Enough?

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GenkiM

Registered
Joined
Sep 16, 2018
EDIT: I should probably point out, for sake of completeness, that at time of writing the build in my sig is a work in progress.

The build to which this thread refers has mounted a standard Alphacool Eisbaer 280:



I'm not sure my entry-level expandable AIO (an Alphacool Eisbaer) is going to be powerful enough for the loop I'm building.

My motherboard is an MSI MPOWER MAX AC that has a chipset radiator with barbs so that I can run water through it to cool the motherboard components.

My CPU is an i7 4790k and my PSU is an EVGA Supernova 850 T2 for the most stable, continuous power delivery I could find, and coupled with my MSI MPOWER MAX motherboard my 4790k overclock (at 4.7) is absolutely saturating the Alphacool Eisbaer when running Prime95...

...so, I have a delidding tool on its way to me as well as some Grizzly Kryonaut thermal paste, and two Hardware Labs Nemesis 280 GTS X-Flow radiators that I'm going to add to the loop (removing the existing Alphacool radiator as the Nemesis 280 GTS X-Flows have better performance).

The more I learn about watercooling the more I think my pump might not be strong enough and I've been trying to figure out whether the loop I'm building is going to be too much for the Eisbaer pump.

According to the www.extremerigs.net review (https://www.xtremerigs.net/2016/02/19/13271/3/) the 280 GTS X-Flow radiator has a restriction/resistance of 0.08 PSI at 0.5 GPM, so (I'm assuming) two of them, at 0.5 GPM, have a combined resistance of 0.16 PSI

The Eisbaer has a flow rate of 0.3GPM (70L/h) with a head of 2.79 feet or 0.85m. Tech specs for the Eisbaer here: https://www.inet.se/files/pdf/6912219_2.pdf

I've used the following calculator to convert the Eisbaer's head to PSI: http://www.mydatabook.org/fluid-mechanics/pumps/head-to-pressure-converter/

...and (if I've got the theory correct) the amount of pressure the Eisbaer generates is 1.21 PSI (with the Specific Gravity of water being 1 (at 4 deg C))

I don't know the restriction/resistance of the chipset heatsink (I've posted at the MSI forums to try and get a figure) or that of the Eisbaer's CPU plate, or indeed if that resistance has been subtracted from the total head figure given in the technical document for the Eisbaer; i.e. with the head figure being the power of the water leaving the pump/plate/reservoir assembly; but I'm assuming it's the total force the pump moves excluding the resistance of the Eisbaer waterblock.

Subtracting the combined resistance/restriction in PSI of the two 280 GTS X-Flow radiators (0.16 PSI at 0.5 GPS (i.e. 0.08 x 2)), from the PSI generated by the Eisbaer's pump (1.21 PSI at 0.3GPM), it leaves the Eisbaer 1.05 PSI left to push the coolent through the rest of the loop...and yeah I know there's an error there...

...it's an apples to oranges comparison in as much as the Eisbaer generates 1.21 PSI at 0.3 GPM and I'm subtracting the restriction/resistance of the radiators as measured at 0.5 gpm but...

...I'm basically a laymen and more or less at the extent of my knowledge and ability in this area, and I don't have the means to get the figures more exact. (There's a graph here, but it's not very precise: https://www.xtremerigs.net/2016/02/19/13271/3/ )

Basically what I'm trying to figure out, is whether or not the Eisbaer is going to be strong enough to support the two 280 GTS X-Flows and the MPOWER MAX AC's heatsink/radiator, or whether I'm going to need a stronger pump?

What do you guys think?​
 
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OP
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GenkiM

Registered
Joined
Sep 16, 2018
I'm not sure my entry-level expandable AIO (an Alphacool Eisbaer) is going to be powerful enough for the loop I'm building...

Hi. Just an update. I just got a response over at the MSI forums and it seems I'm worrying over nothing.

The general sentiment was that the channels in chipset radiators are nowhere near as compact as those in CPU and GPU die plates and that the resistance is close to zero.

So basically was worrying over nothing.

Panic over. :)
 

Mr.Scott

Beamed Me Up!
Joined
Jun 9, 2013
I think you should be worried.
You need 1-1.5 GPM for an efficient system that won't heatsoak.
Restriction is moot if you don't have the flow to begin with.
Not to mention the obvious, it's a $14 pump. You usually get what you pay for.
 
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GenkiM

Registered
Joined
Sep 16, 2018
I think you should be worried.
You need 1-1.5 GPM for an efficient system that won't heatsoak.
Restriction is moot if you don't have the flow to begin with.
Not to mention the obvious, it's a $14 pump. You usually get what you pay for.

Thanks, I am worried ;)

But yeah, I know, I'm overclocking on the cheap ;)

I've got it to boot into Windows and launch Prime95 without crashing at 4.7GHz on all cores, but as soon as Prime ramps up to the more intensive tests it drives my cores into the 80's with no sign of the temperature increase slowing down (it happens too fast to see a trend in fact) and I just shut the test down at that point.

That's with the proprietary Alphacool rad that comes with the Eisbaer. I have two Nemesis 280 GTS X-Flows on their way to me (I've included them in my sig but in truth they're not yet mounted), plus a delidding bracket on its way and some Grizzly Kryonaut, so I'm going to see what effect that has on my overclock.

There is a good chance I'll upgrade to a standard pump and res a little further on but right now I'm still waiting on the money to come through to be able to put Windows on my gaming rig. I've got a Samsung 950 PRO M.2 on its way also but won't have the cash for windows for probably at least a couple of weeks. I've been swapping my SSD from my general use rig to my gaming P.C. just to test the setup, but when I do that it keeps hassling me to activate windows.

It's still very much a work in progress.
 
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Silver Surfer

Member
Joined
May 8, 2011
Location
Darlington, South Carolina
Thanks, I am worried ;)

But yeah, I know, I'm overclocking on the cheap ;)

I've got it to boot into Windows and launch Prime95 without crashing at 4.7GHz on all cores, but as soon as Prime ramps up to the more intensive tests it drives my cores into the 80's with no sign of the temperature increase slowing down (it happens too fast to see a trend in fact) and I just shut the test down at that point.

That's because the Devils Canyon CPU you are overclocking, "CPU: i7 4790k (OC: Work in progress)", is an already overclocked CPU out the Intel factory door, of which Intel left very little overhead on it. Those that have long term overclocked the 4790K with any good success have used much better cooling than you have.

When it comes to overclocking cooling as Mr.Scott said, "You usually get what you pay for.", so if saving money to be able to buy the proper cooling for your setup is your best option I suggest you begin saving. Only those attempting to run Frankenstein'd setup less than you!, are going to give you a thumbs up.
 
OP
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GenkiM

Registered
Joined
Sep 16, 2018
That's because the Devils Canyon CPU you are overclocking, "CPU: i7 4790k (OC: Work in progress)", is an already overclocked CPU out the Intel factory door, of which Intel left very little overhead on it. Those that have long term overclocked the 4790K with any good success have used much better cooling than you have.

When it comes to overclocking cooling as Mr.Scott said, "You usually get what you pay for.", so if saving money to be able to buy the proper cooling for your setup is your best option I suggest you begin saving. Only those attempting to run Frankenstein'd setup less than you!, are going to give you a thumbs up.

Not sure what you mean by Frankenstein'd? But thanks for the input.

And yeah, there's an excellent chance I'll be upgrading to a separate pump and reservoir but it is going to be an incremental process.
 

GTXJackBauer

Water Cooling Senior Member, #TEAMH20HNO
Joined
May 22, 2011
Location
USA
Assuming this is your pump you're running on that expandable AIO, it just won't be enough, when adding 2 rads + CPU block and GPU?

OCF.PNG

Now compare this to a pump (MCP35x) with a x10 more powerful flow rate at a $100 value.

OCF.PNG

As you can see, day n night difference. Therefore, I highly recommend on upgrading the pump. Now if this is the AIO with pump/block combo, you will need a new CPU block.

For budget blocks and pumps, have a look at the Swiftech MCP50X and the XSPC CPU block. I think those are the more affordable options.

Now you'll need new tubing, preferably PrimoChill Advanced LRT. Now you're spending $150+ and don't forget fittings. lol Now you've basically build your own custom loop and wished you never bothered with that AIO.

Before I forget, if you delid that CPU, you will kill it's warranty if there's any left of it. Just be careful as you don't want to crush to core.

:welcome: to OCFs btw.
 
OP
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GenkiM

Registered
Joined
Sep 16, 2018
Assuming this is your pump you're running on that expandable AIO, it just won't be enough, when adding 2 rads + CPU block and GPU? ...

Thanks for the input and yes that's the pump. I know, it's not very powerful.

I bought it as a part of the Alphacool Eisbaer expandable AIO and I'm going to be replacing its radiator, adding a second radiator and running it through the heatsink/radiator on the motherboard chipset.

The loop, out of the box, is designed to fit to an Alphacool GPU block that also contains a pump, but my graphics card is pretty old so I doubt I'll be able to get my hands on one that fits unless it shows up on eBay. :/

And yes, I'm definitely going to delid the CPU. I got it on eBay so, no warranty.

But yeah, I'm basically going to see how far I can get with the Eisbaer and then go from there.

I've only tested it with one game so far (Fallout 4) but it doesn't get anywhere near to 100% load on the processor so, if I'm just playing that, I can overclock the CPU pretty comfortably with the setup as it is.

Also, thanks for the pump recommendations; I've not really looked into that side of things yet but have been meaning to. Whatever I get I want something that's quiet.

It's probably going to take me some time to get the loop together as I'm going to have to acquire the components gradually due to my budget restrictions but there's a very good chance I'll end up buying a more powerful pump.

As for tubing I was going to use norprene for the strength and longevity. Also, I'm only going to use clear coolant so that I don't have the cleaning and maintenance hassles.

:welcome: to OCFs btw.
Thanks :)
 

makaka

Member
Joined
Jan 5, 2004
Location
home
hard to tell , from my experience i found pump do a little to nothings to current loop , i know that many recommend 1 - 1.5 gpm for any water block to work efficiently but i found that even 0.5 gpm is quite enough .
You can do a quick test and boost voltage of your current pump to 14v and see if the temp drop . there is also cheap high performance Chinese pump for like 10$ that you can add to your loop to test before investing 100$ in real high quality pump (cheap pump) . i have few of those pump and i can tell they work @ 12v not worse than an mcp 655 , you can even buy 2 and put on series,