New Server build / Home business

[don256us]

I really don't know how Alamode is setup for network users but, from what I know about every program that I work with today:

Each workstation would have a client version of Alamode. The clients would be pointed to a database on the server for things like your comps, pictures, whatever. With that setup, the majority of the work is done from the individual workstations and little is done on the server itself.
*Again: I don't know how Alamode actually does things but I would be surprised if they werw any different. Their minimum specs seem to bolster my thought of how it works.*

 

[EarthDog]

Exactly. I'm pretty sure a potato could 'host' this software for you. If you have a decent PC you are working on, even that. If it works as don suggested, a simple NAS should work as well (again assuming the client is on each PC and is just accessing some sort of db).

But yeah, if those are the requirements, those are very old and any basic modern CPU will handle it. Id get the cheapest modern 4c/8t CPU you can find, a cheap arse mobo, some cheap arese RAM, and call it good. This really doesn't seem to need anything heavy at all.

Server is just a name.

 

[RoadieWarrior]

that could be more correct than what i'm being told. the biggest issue, the current set up, is just slow, and i know "slow" doesn't help anyone! lol!
it sounded like, per my last conversation, that the server only has 12gb of ram and it doesn't have SSD's, so booting it up, takes a long time.
i could defiantly build something better, but it doesn't have to be super overkill. this server runs 24/7 so i don't want to build anything not reliable.
AMD RYZEN 7 3800X 8-Core 3.9 GHz
i take it this Ryzen is much better than the XEON line i just suggested. when it comes to making a server, does it really matter if it's a "server" chip or not?

software specifically says you can't do a NAS.

 

[don256us]

i just called them. received the email with the minimum requirements. yeah, it looks super basic.
Intel: 64‑bit 3rd Generation Core‑i3 or better (e.g. Intel Core i3‑3210 3.20 GHz)
AMD: 64‑bit A8 APU or better (e.g. AMD A8‑6410 2.00 GHz)
16 GB or more of DDR4 RAM

that "ddr4" ram could be part of the issue. i'm almost positive there is something like DDR2 ram in there. again, 10 years old.

so, would this be a case that 1 cpu would actually be better than 2?

it's not so much web based, but yes, you have to be on the net and have the program. it's kind of weird (to me). if it were Autocad, the server would be running the program, and your terminal uses the server to do the job. but in this alamode case, you need the program on a server, pc's accessing the server, and then the server needs to communicate to alamode as well.

1) I think that you are correct to want a new server. 10 years old is too old to keep running. It will fail.
2) Spend less time/money on the CPU and much more on the storage configuration.
3) Consider RAID 5/6/10 or anything that provides you with the amount of storage you need vs keeping it protected should a drive fail.
4) Spend less on RAM than you are suggesting. 16 GB minimum presents a good argument for 32 GB but I would shy away from more as you get dimishing returns. Spend your money on sotrage.
5) Look at a quad core Xeon or similar AMD with HT. These would be server grade but also low cost.

 

[trents]

I think true server chips would only be necessary when many workstations are being served that generate a lot of traffic, are handling a lot of requests and need high bandwidth and lots of queue depth. This is not your situation at all. I'm thinking an i3 or a Ryzen 1600AF and 16gb of DDR4 3200 mhz RAM will do you fine.

 

[don256us]

Exactly. I'm pretty sure a potato could 'host' this software for you. If you have a decent PC you are working on, even that. If it works as don suggested, a simple NAS should work as well (again assuming the client is on each PC and is just accessing some sort of db).

But yeah, if those are the requirements, those are very old and any basic modern CPU will handle it. Id get the cheapest modern 4c/8t CPU you can find, a cheap arse mobo, some cheap arese RAM, and call it good. This really doesn't seem to need anything heavy at all.

Server is just a name.

I only disagree on one principle. I think that since this is his livlelyhood for up to 5 people, server grade would be important. Downtime = loss of pay. I would buy cheap arse server grade to hedge his bet on uptime. Appriasers only get paid if they turn in appraisal reports and they can only do that if the computer(s) are working.

 

[EarthDog]

Server grade doesn't mean less downtime though (if the parts are in your home). It's the same parts as we have, but lower power...same warranties, etc.

If he wants to mitigate downtime, he needs to build in redundancy. RAID1 the OS and data... get a UPS... etc.

 

[RoadieWarrior]

2) Spend less time/money on the CPU and much more on the storage configuration.
3) Consider RAID 5/6/10 or anything that provides you with the amount of storage you need vs keeping it protected should a drive fail.
4) Spend less on RAM than you are suggesting. 16 GB minimum presents a good argument for 32 GB but I would shy away from more as you get dimishing returns. Spend your money on sotrage.
5) Look at a quad core Xeon or similar AMD with HT. These would be server grade but also low cost.

Keeping with item 2,4, then what i find is Intel Xeon E5-2640 v3. it's $130 and seems to the cheapest newest chip.
i'm not trying to stick with Xeon, but it just keeps coming up. the Ryzen 7 seems like it would work circles around the Xeon, but again, double the cost.

you are also very correct, down time kills! they turn out something like 20-30 appraisals a week.

 

[RoadieWarrior]

Xeon E5-2640 v3
SUPERMICRO MBD-X10SRI-F
Kingston 8GB DDR4 2133 (4x8gb / 32gb = $140

so, trying to wrap my brain all around this, these 3 items would seem like in tune with the current suggestions.

 

[don256us]

Then we are narrowing down the needs and still looking for answers. I agree with ED that a new UPS to keep the server up during power outage is a great thing to reduce data corruption should there be a blip in electric. The OS on a RAID 1 and the data on a RAID 5 or better. Lower cost 4 core/8 thread 4c/8t and a MB that will support all the RAM you are looking to install.

I see a minumum of 6 hard drives with two RAID arrays. If you use consumer grade gear, you could really keep costs on hardware down and use that money to prolong the reliability. However, I am unclear on one point.

You say home office. Is this your home? Is the person in charge of keeping it running 24/7 (you or someone else) confident in troubleshooting, repairing? The answers here would change my opinion based upon what they are.

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Make sure.... please make sure you get a good quality power supply. don't cheap out on that. A good power supply can be just as important as anything else you've spent time looking at.

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With this recomendation, you could get two relatively cheap SATA SSDs ( 128 or 256 GB) in RAID 1 and four spinning "data" rated drives with enough space for all your data in RAID 5.

 

[RoadieWarrior]

Seasonic FOCUS PX-550
that was my thought on a PSU.
it's a business, as in a separate building. unfortunately there is no one to support this or help fix it when it goes down. he pays for 24/7 tech support from the company.
as far as HDs' go, i wanted a M2 for the OS and Program, but i think i picked a MB that doesn't have that option.
for storage, i was going to go with 4 500gb HDs. i was originally going to go with 2 1T in RAID 1, but i believe i need 4 to do what you guys suggested.

https://pcpartpicker.com/list/cQZL8M
this is close to my idea. some items are not exact.

 

[EarthDog]

No need for server parts... give me a bit and I will put something together....

 

[Tír na nÓg]

Just a question : why building a new server on 6 years old tech?

Haswell is not new at all. It's grandma CPU...

Grab a 16 or 32 thread epyc, S you said money is not an issue. They still outperform Intel on a given price point.

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No need for server parts... give me a bit and I will put something together....

Agreed a 12/16 cores consumer AMD will trounce the Haswell from all holes for a portion of the price.

 

[RoadieWarrior]

only reason for assuming the E5-2640 v3 would be an option is cost. at $130 it's pretty darn cheap. yes, money isn't an issue i can easily push up to $3K, if needed. of course, that's not the goal. the goal is simply build the best rig for this application. i am way out of my league on this one, i keep wanting to either build a "old" system or build something super over kill. lol
but like i said, i came here for advice, it would be silly for me to not take it or ignore it.

 

[Tír na nÓg]

Grab a 3900x plus the cheapest mobo you can find and you're done.

 

[EarthDog]

Grab a 3900x plus the cheapest mobo you can find and you're done.

I don't see why he needs to do that, even. I swear a 4c/8t part is plenty for this now and in 10 years. Old tech... I'd stay away from it when you have these more efficient parts.

Sorry for the tidbits.. I will stop until I can get a list up myself.

 

[Tír na nÓg]

I don't see why he needs to do that, even. I swear a 4c/8t part is plenty for this now and in 10 years. Old tech... I'd stay away from it when you have these more efficient parts.

Sorry for the tidbits.. I will stop until I can get a list up myself.

He said he need to run 5/6 computers from the server , I assume VM's.

So 4 core might be a tad tight.

 

[EarthDog]

I don't think its a VM. I didn't read that from anything he said. I believe it is software that installs on each PC, including the server. The server hosts the information and the users connect via app and get the data from the server? IF this is correct (OP?) then it can be done on a potato system.

EDIT:

From what we've heard so far... I would build this...........

i5-10600K / i5-10700k
2x8GB / 2x16GB DDR4 3200 RAM
~$200 Z490 motherboard.
Use integrated GPU

You can also go AMD for similar performance and less price.

Something like

Ryzen 5 3600X / 3700X
~$200 B550 motherboard
2x8GB or 2/16GB DDR4 3200 Mhz RAM
If you go AMD, you need to buy a discrete GPU


These will allow for four SSDs in some form of RAID (depending on the board) and one M.2 module.


I just don't see the point in using old hardware... especially when uptime is a concern. You're not afraid to spend, but, you're spending on old hardware. It will work, of course, but again, server is just a word...it can be built with anything, but I don't see why the examples are old xeon. You don't need the bandwidth for the ram (akin to attaching a fire hose to your house spicket).

The slowest part is going to be the internet access from those connecting. The modern motherboard chipsets I listed both come with 2.5 GbE, many with dual NICs. You don't need to stripe SSDs (how big are these image files?) with redundancy, just have them redundant.

EDIT2: After thinking more about this... only some boards will allow you to RAID your M.2 (OS) drives. To that end, I wouldn't run raid on my OS...I would simply create a backup image of the drive. It seems like the OS wouldn't change much and be fairly static. A base install, drivers, and this software can be reimaged and stood up in several minutes if things went bad (and the image was on an SSD). I would have RAID on the SATA SSDs you picked for redundancy of that data.

 

[RoadieWarrior]

to be honest, i'm not 100% sure how the program works. i believe the full program is installed on the server, then each PC accesses it along with all the data files.
BTW: you keep saying "potato", what is that? lol??? i can't google it because, well... i'm not sure i'd find what you are talking about.
i was only going to RAID the 4 SSD's, not the M2, or is that not possible? i've never even done a RAID before, so it will be really new. oh, only the images or files need to be backed up, not the OS or program.
oh, his current server is a duel cpu with 2 cores, do a 4 total core system, but two cpus. again, he paid roughly $8k 10 years ago and i'm still not sure why.
looking at the specs, so is going quad ram a good thing or is it just a thing? i see the 2x32gb which is the same amount of ram, but would this be that bandwidth you mentioned?

 

[don256us]

Quad RAM is good. More channels = more speed. I also don't know what "potato" is in this context. Just about any MB should let you run your M.2 as a seperate drive and allow you to RAID the other drives. You'll need to check the manual of the MB *before* you buy. If you are going to go with an M.2 get an NVMe otherwise you just have a SATA drive in a differnt format in which case you might as well get a 2.5" SSD.