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Non liquid metal tim suggestion between IHS and cpu die. (delid)

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Makentox

Registered
Joined
Jan 27, 2017
So i have delidded my 6700k and recently bought noctua d15s, i have used noctua included NT-H1 which is one of the best non conductive paste. Used it both between IHS and die, as well as between heatspreder and cooler itself.
Once i did it, i overclocked cpu to 4.9GHZ at 1.410v, run prime95 same day and temperature max temperature was in low 80's after 20 mins, which is great i thought. Then next day, i tried prime95 again but this time temperatures were close to 90's, i was like ok... but during gaming temperature never exceed 80. And today when i tried to run just a damn cinebench r15 temperatures went instantly top 95 and pc shut down :D

You may think i didnt applied paste correctly but im sure i did because before delidding i had experience with at least 20 cpu or gpu tim applications. Also before i put final noctuas paste i reaplied it 3 times just to see how it spreads, im sure its all over the die but not too much.

I guess this kind of tim is not for delidding, this why i want to ask for advice. I dont really want to go for liquid metal for couple of reasons. 1. too many people complain that it last only like 6-8 months and then perform worse than any cheap tim. 2. Then after 6-8 months its extremely hard to remove, u need some special liquid and then sand and so on. 3. Also its pretty expensive to buy it every 6 months, people say it dries out in tubes (not sure).

I have tried to find similar topics with no success. So if you could give me advice or better product name that will perform well between cpu die and heatspreder. Also how is it possible that TIM performs great between cooler and IHS, but bad between die and IHS?

Thanks!
 
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trents

Senior Member
Joined
Dec 27, 2008
The top side of the IHS has a slight concave shape to it which tends to nullify the tendency of TIM to "pump out" from repeated expansion/contraction caused by many cycles of heating and cooling. So I'm not sure whether this also implies that he underside of the IHS is convex. At any rate, the TIM that Intel uses seems to be very tar-like and viscous. But it apparently hangs in there over time pretty good. So my suggestion would be to get some non conductive/non capacitive TIM which is very viscous. If you do some research you will find descriptors like that in reviews that compare the performance and characteristics of various TIMs.

Personally, using anything other than Liquid Ultra diminishes the effect of delidding to the point where I don't think it's worth it. If you apply nail polish clear coat to the transistors around the die on the pcb then there is little danger of shorting out something. And I think the complaints of having to redo it often are exaggerated. And with 91% alcohol and an old toohthbrush it comes right off easy even after being on for some time. I would only use LU on the underside of the lid, however, as flakes of it can fall onto the motherboard if you have to remove the heatsink.
 

Mandrake4565

Mr. Clean Senior Member
Joined
Jan 12, 2012
The Noctua paste is really good I'm surprised you're having issues with it. Is it possible the Ihs has moved a bit after you installed the cpu? Others that I know use Gelid Extreme and Grizzly Kryonaut though the Kryonaut is more for when one is taking there Cpu sub ambient.
 

Lochekey

Senior Pink Member
Joined
Sep 13, 2015
As Manny said gelid and Thermal grizzly are my go to pastes. The NT-h1 only performs slightly behind these 2 though. You can see a comparison of them here.
 

trents

Senior Member
Joined
Dec 27, 2008
Yes, Thermal Grizzly. I have used that and it's one of those viscous ones.
 

Tgrable

Member
Joined
Feb 8, 2017
Location
Minneapolis, MN
The problem with TIM that isn't liquid metal is that when used on the DIE it can pump out due to the way the it heats up and cools off in quick bursts.

So look for a Tim that will be less affected by that issue
 
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Makentox

Registered
Joined
Jan 27, 2017
The top side of the IHS has a slight concave shape to it which tends to nullify the tendency of TIM to "pump out" from repeated expansion/contraction caused by many cycles of heating and cooling. So I'm not sure whether this also implies that he underside of the IHS is convex. At any rate, the TIM that Intel uses seems to be very tar-like and viscous. But it apparently hangs in there over time pretty good. So my suggestion would be to get some non conductive/non capacitive TIM which is very viscous. If you do some research you will find descriptors like that in reviews that compare the performance and characteristics of various TIMs.

Personally, using anything other than Liquid Ultra diminishes the effect of delidding to the point where I don't think it's worth it. If you apply nail polish clear coat to the transistors around the die on the pcb then there is little danger of shorting out something. And I think the complaints of having to redo it often are exaggerated. And with 91% alcohol and an old toohthbrush it comes right off easy even after being on for some time. I would only use LU on the underside of the lid, however, as flakes of it can fall onto the motherboard if you have to remove the heatsink.

Thanks for respond, i will try to look for more viscous paste, however noctuas thermal paste seemed already very viscous, cant imagine it can be more than it.
However some questions about liquid, do you reapply it and how often? Btw 6700k doesnt have any transistor on top pcb so it seems to be more safe. For how long i can keep syringe of LU after use before it expires?

The Noctua paste is really good I'm surprised you're having issues with it. Is it possible the Ihs has moved a bit after you installed the cpu? Others that I know use Gelid Extreme and Grizzly Kryonaut though the Kryonaut is more for when one is taking there Cpu sub ambient.
Well it may not be aligned perfectly, but i dont think it really matters, IHS is more 0.3mm into right and 0.5mm up, or does it?
 

ehume

Member
Joined
Oct 30, 2009
This subject has been explored in detail on the Anandtech forums. Basically, the Noctua paste, as good as it is, will pump out. The most successful delidders use liquid metal. Oh yes: they trim off the Intel rubber glue then put the IHS down on top of the CPU. Then they put the Noctua or the Gelid paste on top of the IHS, between it and the heatsink.

True, you have 2 layers of TIM, but the alternative is to remove the socket hardware, which is asking for trouble. And even if you do that you have to compensate for the missing thickness of the IHS: a Noctua's spring puts 50lb pressure on the IHS. If you remove the IHS, the heatsink puts less than 50 lbs of pressure on the CPU. Best is to replace the IHS with liquid metal under it, Noctua or Gelid on top.
 
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Makentox

Registered
Joined
Jan 27, 2017
I see, well main reason of delidding was to avoid buying bigger cooler, however after delid i managed to push 4.8 under 212 evo, temps were fine. But then like any of us i became even more addicted so i bought noctua d15s anyway to get 5GHZ T T
Liquid metal would do great but im worried that it will degrade in months and wont give me as much cooling anymore. Most people who delid and apply liquid ultra will change their cpu often but i want to keep it longer. And still people tell different things about how much pain to remove LU to reapply it.
Ill try to find more legit info about liquid metal behaviour after time.
 

Tgrable

Member
Joined
Feb 8, 2017
Location
Minneapolis, MN
From what I've heard liquid metal does not go bad. At least not in the time frame you are thinking. If you apply it properly I see no reason why it would not last 2+ years
 
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Makentox

Registered
Joined
Jan 27, 2017
I cant find information on the internet about:
For how much time can you store liquid metal after you open syringe?
How many applications can you make out of 1 LU syringe?
 

Tgrable

Member
Joined
Feb 8, 2017
Location
Minneapolis, MN
I did one application with mine and have almost a full thing left. It literally takes one tiny bead to cover the DIE.

As for time it is good I have no clue but it doesn't appear to dry out or anything like that from what I have seen. The people who have been running it for a good amout of time and checked out it haven't really noticed drying out either from the threads I follow.

It does stain the metal it is on, but that is more because of the fact it fills all the microscopic places on the ihs/die
 

caddi daddi

Godzilla to ant hills
Joined
Jan 10, 2012
I have been running a 4790K, neked, no IHS, with liquid metal for quite a while, have not had to reapply it.
and ONE, TINY bead is all it takes, practice, the tube gooooooooooos a loooooooooooooonnnnnnng way.
 

Woomack

Benching Team Leader
Joined
Jan 2, 2005
Gelid Extreme or Kryonaut are the best if you don't want to use liquid metal. Overclockers are using them going sub 0 and so far there were no real issues.

On SL/KL is better to stay with IHS because PCB is thin and you will probably bend it when you use any heavier cooler or put more pressure installing water cooling.

I'm not sure if it was liquid metal or something else but my i3 6320 started to act weird and was losing stability after about 2 months work with liquid metal. Nothing was moved and it was working mainly in [email protected] Weird was that error codes were related to IGP when in use was only discrete graphics card. At the end it was randomly crashing but maybe it was coincidence. 3770K with liquid metal was working about 3 years and now it's in the box.
 

RJ88

Disabled
Joined
Mar 24, 2017
Why couldn't you Delid the Piledriver chips like mannn..welded them dang things together...this one would be awesome going on to the die. but really just need to get an amazing Lap round on it agian like as fine and smooth as can be.
 
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Makentox

Registered
Joined
Jan 27, 2017
Thank you all for information given, i have decided to go for liquid metal application, never used it before so i will experience it myself, if it turns a failure then it will be my own lesson.
Sad thing in my country LU cost around 22$ T T Should have not delidded cpu but its all done and now i need to squeeze all i can out of it. So 5GHZ or none.
As someone told here that delidding without liquid metal is no point, but all reviews and benchmarks of tim were just 3 C higher than liquid metal tim, reviews of delidding on the internet showed 15-25C drop, so math failed me 25-3=22 C drop with non conductive would be great too, sad it doesnt work this way.
 
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RJ88

Disabled
Joined
Mar 24, 2017
Thank you all for information given, i have decided to go for liquid metal application, never used it before so i will experience it myself, if it turns a failure then it will be my own lesson.
Sad thing in my country LU cost around 22$ T T Should have not delidded cpu but its all done and now i need to squeeze all i can out of it. So 5GHZ or none.
As someone told here that delidding without liquid metal is no point, but all reviews and benchmarks of tim were just 3 C higher than liquid metal tim, reviews of delidding on the internet showed 15-25C drop, so math failed me 25-3=22 C drop with non conductive would be great too, sad it doesnt work this way.

They say quite some Phenomenal improvement's but is it worth it? you are already have a great Tim, NT-H1 that and water can do some nice stuff.
 

trents

Senior Member
Joined
Dec 27, 2008
A couple of suggestions for making the application of Liquid Ultra easier and safer:

1. Apply the LU while the CPU is not in the socket.
2. Coat the components around the die on the naked CPU PCB with clear nail polish top coat or . . . tape them off and remove the tape when done.
3. Trim the bristles of the applicator brush so that they are shorter. Take about one third of the length off. This will give you more control during the spreading of the LU.
4. When you go to place the IHS back on the die and are about to throw the clamp, place the IHS a little rear of the center since the clamping will cause it to slide forward a little.
5. If you mess up, don't panic. The LU will come off easily with 91% isopropyl alcohol and an old toothbrush and you can start over.
 
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Makentox

Registered
Joined
Jan 27, 2017
Brush that comes with LU, is it possible to clean it after use to use it later, or should i just get a new one for future applications?
People use non conductive pastes between ISH and HS why not just use metal liquid for even better results?
Can i use this https://www.amazon.com/Arctic-Silver-Arcticlean-Material-ACN-60ML/dp/B0087X738E to remove paste? I just already have it and want to know if should i get alcohol?