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Overclocking Sandbox: Tbred B DLT3C 1700+ and Beyond

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TT SF II (80 mm)

dlt3c_1800_jixib_0322_mpmw_p95_2567d_TTSFII_c.JPG
 
Cuda said:


I have the Buffalo 3200 Winbond CH-5 chips and I run at 220 MHz FSB with no problems at all.

I think both the BH5 and CH5 are fine. Just many people in the memory section seems to say BH5 are better, which is a bit strange. I heard Kingston 3000 modules use BH5 and their 3500 modules use CH5 (if BH5 is so good for overclocking, why do they do it like this?).

I have some 512 MB CH5, two can do up to 237 MHz and one only goes to 220 MHz, all under 2.9 V.

So it seems to be just a sampling of luck. But getting the 3700 rated at 231 MHz would take out the guess work.
 
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hitechjb1 said:


Not 100% sure, I heard the Kingston HyperX KHX3200A is BH5, same for its Hyper-X 3000. But the HyperX 3500 is CH5. I don't know why. But then it shows BH5 is not better than CH5 in nature. I don't know much more about their difference in overclocking, except a luck of draw or getting the 3700 which is officially rated higher, at 231 MHz, against the "not so good" one in 3000, 3200 and 3500.

Here how it is:

KHX3000256 - BH5
KHX30002563200 - BH5
KHX3000256A3200 - CH5

Ideally, you would want to look for Rev. A01 of HyperX. The is especially important when picking the PC3000. Almost all 3200non-A are A01.

The big difference between BH5 and CH5 is the ability to maintain tight timings at high FSB. Some CH5 have been known to run 225+ w/tight timings, however that is not as common as BH5 which is certainly guarranteed to reach those speeds. PCB quality also comes into play here but that is a different story.
 
I made a 120mm->80mm duct (4" long) and mounted a 108cfm sunon fan on the end. This setup blows away the other fans I tested. ATM I cranked vcore up to 2.0V in the bios and have the thing running @220x11 for 2420MHz. Currently testing by running prime95 and folding gromacs.
ambient=23C
cpu=51C, board sensor=29C

120duct.jpg


I went straight to 2.0V Vcore, so I may be able to get more MHz or else lower the vcore and still maintain stability.
 
Mustanley said:
The two fans I used in this test were made by NMB, an 80mmx25mm 25CFM and a 92mmx25mm 48CFM model.
Ambient temp was 27C during testing.
testbed: 2500+@2310(220x10.5) 1.75V, NF7-S, slk947u, Ceramique TIM.

92mm fan-> cpu:49C, board:29C
92mm w/80mm fan housing reducer-> cpu:51C, board:31C
80mm w/80mm fan housing spacer-> cpu:55C, board:35C
80mm fan-> cpu:52C, board:35C

I wasn't very impressed with my 92mm->80mm reducer, since it was not tapered. This likely more than offset any enhancement to the pressure created by the 80x25mm spacer. My next project is to fabricate a few spacers and tapered reducers of various sizes to test. I also want to use some higher performance fans. The 80mm NMB is very weak and not adequately equipped to push air through the slk947u.
Another thing that struck me was the 92mm fan overhang lowering the board temperature. Board temps rose when the air column was reduced to only 80mm, either via the 80mm fan or the 92mm->80mm reducer.

From your earlier post, to summarize your test results:
Barton w/ SLK-947U
(from best to worst)
120 Sunon to 80 mm .... 29 / 51 C .... 2.0 V ...... 2420 MHz (220 x 11) well taped, gain 100+ MHz
92 mm NMB ................ 29 / 49 C .... 1.75 V .... 2310 MHz (220 x 10.5)
92 NMB to 80 mm ........ 31 / 51 C .... 1.75 V .... 2310 MHz (220 x 10.5) not taped
80 mm NMB ................ 35 / 52 C .... 1.75 V .... 2310 MHz (220 x 10.5)
80 MNB to 80 mm ........ 35 / 55 C .... 1.75 V .... 2310 MHz (220 x 10.5) add space bet fan & hs

120 mm Sunon is rated 108 CFM

Please correct or update if you have more details.
 
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whoa dude... i got a 92mm tornado.... it hits 120 cfm... why couldnt u jsut get that it would be so much easier... and it keeps ur cpu freezing... heheh

now i get 38 load

hey mustanley... iw as lookin at ur sig...
Radeon 9800NP (430,395) is that with stock cooling?
 
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EspElement said:
whoa dude... i got a 92mm tornado.... it hits 120 cfm... why couldnt u jsut get that it would be so much easier... and it keeps ur cpu freezing... heheh

now i get 38 load

hey mustanley... iw as lookin at ur sig...
Radeon 9800NP (430,395) is that with stock cooling?

Well, from what I've read, the 120mm sunon at 108 cfm will create more pressure than a smaller 92mm fan. Plus, it doesn't sound like a vacuum cleaner :D
Not sure why my temps are up there in general. My ambient room temp is pretty high, and maybe I have an old NF7-S bios (haven't flashed) before the temp "correction" was made.

The 9800np has a 1u copper cpu cooler on it, but no ramsinks. In stock form with a pro bios it did 420/395.
 
yea thats true... what was ur volts on it with teh stock cooling? im gonna be clocking a 9800 pro aiw and i ordered a nice hs but i wanna see if i can get it to 412/365... which is the xts clocks and see if it works just as good...

yea i had a xt too... thats waht i ran my marks on... but i sold it away... cause it didnt seem to be worth what i payed... im gonna get this 9800 above the xt clocks it looks like... hehe

tahnx man :-d
 
Eventually, we may be seeing locked Tbred B 1700+/1800+ DLT3C. Since the 1700+ has the same 11x multipler as the Barton 2500+, here is what I think the impact would be - not much, ...

This is a modified version for the analysis for the locked Barton 2500+, applied to locked 1700+/1800+.

Locked Barton 2500+ or locked 1700+ DLT3C are still the best choice in terms of CPU overclocking, FSB overclocking and price (on air)

This was written for Barton 2500+ w/ 11x multiplier, same argument would hold true for a locked Tbred B 1700+ DLT3C.

For a locked 1800+ whose multiplier is 11.5, it becomes borderly good as the locked multiplier limits the FSB overclocking by about 4% (or about 8 MHz).

As long as you have a nforce2 rev 2.0 motherboard (running at FSB 220 MHz +- 10 MHz), keep the locked Barton, its x11 multiplier works nicely with good HSF on air, from 2.31 - 2.53 GHz depending on how high the FSB and memory can be pushed.

Don't get the higher PR rating CPU, it costs more and it may make things worse, if you have a 210 or higher FSB motherboard. Same argument, don't get locked CPU with multiplier higher than 11x or 11.5x

E.g. assuming the Barton series can be overclocked to around 2.5 GHz,
if you get 2800+, if it is locked at x12.5, and your FSB would be limited to 200 MHz. Memory intensive applications and benchmarks may not perform as well as a Barton running at 2.475 GHz using 225 FSB x 11. The lower 25 MHz in FSB in the case of 2800+, is about 25 (8) (0.95) = 190 MB/s lower in effective memory bandwidth.


1700+/2500+ default multiplier 11
1800+/2600+ default multiplier 11.5
2800+ default multiplier 12.5
3000+ default multiplier 13
3200+ default multiplier 11

To summarize,
Assuming the Barton series can be overclocked to around 2.5 GHz using a high end copper HSF such as SLK-800/900/947U,
A 1700+/2500+, locked at 11, FSB would be limited to 227 MHz
A 1800+/2600+, locked at 11.5, FSB would be limited to 217 MHz
A 2800+, locked at 12.5, FSB would be limited to 200 MHz.
A 3200+, locked at 11, same as 2500+, FSB would be limited to 227 MHz.

There is a good chance to achieve 220+ FSB w/ a NF7-S rev 2.0, with winbond memory BH5/CH5, enough Vdimm and chipset Vdd.

So Tbred B 1700+/1800+ DLT3C or Barton 2500+ is still the best choice for locked CPU in terms of CPU overclocking, FSB overclocking and price.
Goal for 24/7 system:
- 2.5 GHz 512 L2 cache Barton 2500+ (SLK- HSF) OR
- 2.5+ GHz 256 L2 cache 1700+/1800+ DLT3C (SLK- HSF)
- 227 FSB x 11 (NF7-S rev 2.0) (for 1800+ FSB would be limited to 217 MHz)
- memory w/ winbond CH5/BH5 chips
- $90 CPU for Barton OR
- $50-60 for 1700+/1800+
That is, the FSB and the CPU would have a good change to be maximized out at the same time, without using the more expensive 3200+ (which also has x11 multiplier).



Impact of Tbred B 1700+/1800+ DLT3C or Barton 2500+ w/ locked multiplier on overclocking

Putting things into perspective, currently for system with NF7-S rev 2.0 with CPU on air cooling, the impact of locked 2500+ is minimal, at most 3% from best overclocking (2.5 GHz), if the motherboard and memory can do 220 MHz.

If aiming for super FSB to 240-250 MHz for 3Dmark benchmark, then the CPU is limiting the FSB due to the fixed 11x multiplier.

If motherboard or memory is limiting at the low 200-210 MHz, then the FSB is limiting the CPU to 2200-2310 MHz.


If there is no workaround for the locked Barton, these would be the scenarios:

1. It would mostly affect users with KT266A, KT333A motherboads, since those boards can achive max FSB around 150 MHz and 190 MHz respectively, due to 4:1 and 5:1 PCI lock, .... As a result, a Barton 2500+ with 11x multiplier, the max CPU overclocking frequency would be 1650 MHz and 2090 MHz respective. These number are way below the norm of 2.2 - 2.4 GHz for Barton 2500+.

2. It would also affect users using extreme coolings. Assuming they are using nforce2 which can do 220 MHz FSB on the average, and as high as 240+ if using enough Vdd, Vimm and chipset cooling, and "good" RAM, ... So the Barton 2500+ in these systems with 11x multipliers would be limited to overclocked frequency of 2420 MHz (220 FSB) to 2640 MHz (240 FSB). Not 2.7 - 2.9 GHz as hoped for. One would need a Barton with 13x multiplier to achieve 2860 MHz running 220 FSB.

3. For air cooling using a good nforce2 motherboard such as NF7-S rev 2.0, whose FSB averages around 220 MHz +- 10 MHz. The Barton 2500+ should still be able to run at 220 x 11 = 2420 MHz, which is above the norm 2.3 GHz for Barton 2500+. At FSB 230 MHz, which is doable, the Barton would then run at 2530 MHz.

Now the burden becomes putting more demand on the FSB, memory, and how to tune/optimize the FSB reaching 220 - 230 MHz, so that the motherboard, good memory (modules with WinBond CH5/BH5 chips) and FSB are not holding back the Barton 2500+ due to the fixed multiplier 11. If one can only achieve FSB 210 MHz, the Barton would be running at 2320 MHz, which is still above the PR rating of a 3200+ AMD processor.

To achieve 2.3 - 2.5 GHz speed for a 2500+ on air, a copper HSF such as SLK-800/900/947U and a high CFM adjustable fan such as TT SFII would be the choice. It is doable with a TT SFII fan running 3000-3200 rpm at which the noise should be acceptable for 24/7 run. Barton 2500+ at 2.3 - 2.5 GHz can run few degree C cooler and less power than a Tbred B 1700+/1800+ DLT3C delivering the same overall performance.

So I would say at multiplier 11x, currently with high end air cooling, for system w/ nforce2 rev 2.0 board, there is not much an impact for 24/7 usage:
- The impact is at most 12% (2200 MHz at stock FSB 200 MHz) on CPU frequency from the best Barton 2500+ overclocking on air (assuming 2500 MHz). Even in this worst case situation, it is already running as a 3200+ CPU.
- An average system at FSB 220 MHz can run Barton at 2420 MHz (about 3% off the best Barton at 2500 MHz on air).
 
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hitechjb1, very nice to see you again. I know i was gone for a while.. I missed ya, so I came back. Very very nice thread here, as always!. I(we) appreciate your work, how much effort you have put into.
 
[OC]This said:
hitechjb1, very nice to see you again. I know i was gone for a while.. I missed ya, so I came back. Very very nice thread here, as always!. I(we) appreciate your work, how much effort you have put into.

Thanks, long time no see.

I have put quite a bit of works, from experiment and analysis stand points into overclocking, since I started overclocking a 1700+ since April 03. It helps me to underand the things better, and so I wrote them up and posted them, hope it can help others and stir some discussions. Before that I was using a stock HSF. :)

These are some interesting posts, I think, posted since 08/2003.

Overclocking

Summary on overclocking the NF7-S rev 2.0 (with Tbred B 1700+ DLT3C and ...) (page 15)
...


General techniques

General rules on voltage and temperature for CPU overclocking (page 16)

How to determine "highest" voltage and temperature for CPU overclocking (page 16)

Lower voltage, shorter transistor channel length, lower transistor threshold voltage and Tbred B 1700+/1800+DLT3C (page 15)
...


Tbred B 1700+ DLT3C, Barton related

Comparing Tbred B 1700+/1800+ DLT3C and Barton 2500+ overclocking performance, power and temperature (page 14)

What happens to programs running in CPU with smaller and bigger L2 cache (page 17)

Impact of Tbred B 1700+/1800+ DLT3C or Barton 2500+ w/ locked multiplier on overclocking (page 18)
...


Vcore

Effect of high Vcore and electromigration on CPU failure time (page 15)

Effect of high Vcore and electromigration on expected failure time for Tbred B/Barton (page 15)

What could damage a chip/CPU permanently? (page 15)
...


Air Cooling

Testing 4 fans w/ a SLK-947U on a Tbred B 1700+ DLT3C (page 16)

Comparing Tornado 80mm, Tornado 92mm and TT SFII (second test data) (page 17)
...


Power and current estimate, PSU requirements

Are the 9700 and 9800 using 5V for GPU Vcore? (page 14)

Which PSU line does AMD CPU run on (page 14)
...
 
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*looks at Hitechjb1's last post, and indeed this entire thread*

Mustanley is right. This thread has answered so many questions, and covered, discovered, and made known so much information that it really does need to be made into a sticky, or at least have all the articles that hitechjb1 wrote within this thread all compiled and linked up in a sticky. This is information that no AMD overclocker expert, or beginner, should be without. This is an indispensible source for information. I have actually bookmarked this thread :santa:

Sticky vote from me too (for what it is worth).
 
You have my vote on this thread. Here goes:

STICKY IT, STICKY IT, STICKY IT, STICKY IT, STICKY IT, STICKY IT, STICKY IT, STICKY IT, STICKY IT, STICKY IT, STICKY IT, STICKY IT, STICKY IT, STICKY IT, STICKY IT, STICKY IT, STICKY IT, STICKY IT, STICKY IT, STICKY IT, STICKY IT, STICKY IT, STICKY IT, STICKY IT, STICKY IT, STICKY IT, STICKY IT, STICKY IT, STICKY IT.

This is highly important information that should be stickied immediatelly. I haven't replied on this, but I read it, page to page, and helped me HIGHLY:D . Sticky stuff here:) .
 
[rant mode: on]
Goodness. This thread has been getting sticky requests for months now. Isn't it about time it actually gets stickied?


Oh wait... It already has been... Exactly five months and 1 day ago on June 27, 2003!!! Honestly. What good are stickies if all of you people that are recommending this thread don't even bother to read them to find it has been for months?
[/end rant]

In all honesty, people really should read the stickies. Not only do they contain information of such high value, but this value is being completely wasted, and all these requests are a perfect example of this.
 
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