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Questions - Receiver? Preamp maybe?

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Foxie3a

Normal Member
Joined
Sep 7, 2003
It's time for some upgrading!

I'm liking my headphones, and am getting really tired of speakers now. The only time speakers are worth it is when they are on really loud, and that bothers people, and it just isn't practicle. My headphones sound very, and I mean very good, but only at very high volume levels. I am told that I need an amp. My guitar friend calls it a preamp, and I think that's what I'm going to call it so that it's not confused with an amplifier that acts as a speaker.

The preamp will increase the volume going to my headphones, even though I dont need to have my headphones on louder. This should make a more fulfilling sound, correct?

How about a receiver? Is a receiver purely an interface for hooking up wire speakers to a computer sound card? Or can it do more? I have an idea, but I dont know if it can be done. Buy a reciever and hook up my Z5300 speakers to it, along with the subwoofer, and over time upgrade it speaker by speaker, until I have a complete home theatre system. That way I'll still have surround sound when I need it, like for movies, and I can switch to 2.0(or 2.1) mode for stuff like music. Is there a switch on them to switch from 5.1 to 2.1? I know my Logitechs do, but that's no where near home theatre status.

Then, in addition to that, I would also like a headphone jack on the receiver, so when I plug in the headphones it turns off the speakers, or I could do it manually. I would have the preamp in between the sound card and the receiver, connected by a digital cord, right?

Right now I have an Audigy. I want to upgrade. I'm going to get the Chaintech AV-180(I think that's what it's called) and experiment with it. I'm sure I won't like it since it's so cheap though, and I'll end up selling it, but it's not much of a loss since it's so cheap to begin with.

The M-Audio Revolution 5.1 is another possibility. From what I hear it's not as good as the chaintech for 2.0 audio, but I have doubts in a $20 sound card.

And I know an Audigy 2 ZS would be fine no matter what, but I'm not sure about the sound quality compared to the M-Audio. How about having two sound cards, one for the headphones, and one for the speakers. The M-Audio would be for the speakers while the Chaintech would be for the headphones. Could I have both plugged into the receiver at the same time, and just switch in the Volume Control on my computer?

What about the cord on my headphones? I plug it in atleast once a day and I'm scared it'll bend over time. I hear that the sound quality might be better from a higher quality cord. Someone told me he thought the bass was richer when he switched cords, however it seems like no one really knows for sure if there is a difference or not. Can someone point me in the right direction? I wouldn't mind upgrading them if it isn't too expensive, since I'd then be able to use my stock ones as backup in case if the other ones broke from time and use. Seems like a win win situation to me.

So what headphone cord, preamp and receiver would be suggested? Remember, I dont know anything about any of this stuff, so you have to explain everything to me. The people at Sharkyforums stopped replying to my thread, lol, hopefully you guys will be a little nicer. :)
 
Hey Foxie,

I'll do my best to answer your questions :D .

First a preamp is not what you need. A preamplifier only switches between sources (like a CD player, Game consol, DVD player etc.) it also handles the signal processing and controls the volume. It has no amplifiers in it (well ok, some have headphone amps).

What you should look into is a headphone amplifier. They make amps specifically for headphones (or if your handy with a soldering iron you can build your own) which usually work very nicely.

Now whether or not you would need a dedicated headphone amp over just the headphone output on a receiver really depends on your headphones and how picky you are about little sonic nuances. I myself have a pair of sennhesier HD-580's. I spent about over $200 on a nice dedicated headphone amp with a premo audiophile power cord etc (the amp was a Corda HA-1). I did a lot of testing with it and my H/K receiver and Parasound home audio preamp (which had a headphone amp built in). I really didnt feel the corda was worth the cost for the performance I gained over the receiver or parasound preamp. If you listened super closely you could hear little differences but it certainly wasnt worth $200+. So I sold the headphone amp and I'm living happily with my receiver powering my headphones. So it really depends on your ears and what level of performance you want when it comes to a dedicated headphone amp over a receiver.


Now a receiver (home theater receiver) Is a unit that has a preamplifier and amplifiers built in. It accepts many different types of signals from analog to digital. Almost all current HT receivers have built in decoders for surround sound etc. Reveivers are really made for the home theater in mind. In most cases they are hooked up to CD players and DVD players etc. But you can hook them up to computers and get very good results. You will have to buy some adaptors to get the signal from the PC to the receiver but in general it isnt too complicated.

You could use a receiver to power the A-5300 speakers but in all honesty you would want better speakers. The Z-5300 speakers are very small and cant handle the type of power a receiver can output. It would work but you would have to be careful about how loud you are listening.

Most receiver will automatically cut the speakers volume once you plug in headphones so you shouldnt have to worry about having to switch something off (but in some cases you do).

I think your best bet may be to get a HT receiver. You can probably get a good one for around $200~$300. You can hook the Z-5300 speakers up to it but again you would have to be pretty easy on them and they may not survive too long.


The cord on some headphones is replaceable (like on my HD-580s for instance). If the cord is detachable from the headphones there is a good chance you can get a replacment cord for fairly cheap. Some of the aftermarket cables on higher end headphones are supposed to be good but they are expensive (around $100 from what I recall). So again that goes back to how demanding you are of your headphones.

If you can make up a budget and let us know what headphones you have we can help you narrow some choices down :thup: .


Ryan
 
I try to keep as much about my system in my sig as possible. I have a line dedicated to audio. lol. I have the Sennheiser HD 280's, your headphone's little brother. I'm pretty sure they have a detachable cord, but I've never looked into it, I just use them and don't ask questions. ;)

My budget is flexable. I'd rather you tell me a few different ones at different price ranges and I'll go from there. It doesn't need to be the best, even if I did get HT speakers they would only be those small HK ones that everyone has, they're good, but bottom line of the HT stuff.

I don't even need to plug my speakers into it! It's just a bonus, what I really want to do is have my headphones in it. I enjoy headphones a lot more than speakers now.

Looks like I'll ditch the preamp idea then since it sounds like the receiver has what I want built in. What companies are good for receivers? There is one company I don't know but I hear is good, Okoyo, or something like that. I am told not to touch sony for whatever reason. How is AIWA? I have a radio/tv(audio only)/weather station/cassette player built by them and when I used it I was very happy, it's many many years old, but I was rough on it, I threw it up, and it I didn't catch it, fell on cement, didn't hurt it though. They just seem so, cheap though with the boomboxes they sell and stuff. How about HK? What are things I should look for in a receiver?

I'll be buying it used, and I'll look around for a good deal. I'd be willing to spend $100 on a decent receiver, give or take a bit.

If I remember right these speakers are supposed to be close to 40watts each. Something like 38 each, with the center being a few more. I have no idea if those numbers are accuruate, but that's what I remember off of newegg. I use my speakers to hear the Windows beeps, listen to music on low while doing stuff, and the only time they are on high is when I'm mad, or when I'm watching a DVD for the first time. I never put them on too loud though, it's just stupid to, it gets just too loud, no matter where you are in the house. I doubt I would ruin them if I had it in the receiver(because I keep it on so low).

Is ruining my headphones a possibility? How much power goes out of the headphone jack on a receiver? I remember seeing 100watts/channel often on receivers that were 5.1, but I'm sure it's more like 5 watts for headphones, right?

Well wait, I'll be spending all of this money on a receiver just for headphones.... So what kind of improvements will I see? Fuller sound? And what sound card do you recommend? I'm plugging this into my computer, there is no doubt about that, I have everything on my computer, no CDs or anything so I just HAVE to have it hooked to my computer.

Oh, another company is JVC. I have a stereo made by them from, before 2000 I'm sure, one of the first with a nice remote, simple radio/casette/1 CD, and it has detechable speakers on each side. It's not very loud, or good sounding, but works great and hasn't given me any trouble for years, even though I rarely use it anymore. Are they a reputable company in the HT feild?

What kind of adaptors will I be needing? I'll be using the digital out on my sound card, right? I like ebay a lot, you can feel free to give me links of stuff I should look into, and I can look around until I find a good price on what you recommend.

By the way, where is Escondido?
 
For a receiver (depending on the price point) you can get a good receiver for around $300 new. You should be able to find a good used receiver for around $100~$150. The brands I would look for are. Harman/Kardon, Onkyo, Denon, Marantz, and Yamaha. Yamaha is a bit more on the low end of that group but any receivers from those manufactures should be a quality unit. Some of the cheaper brands that you could look for would be Pioneer, Kenwood, and JVC. There receivers are fairly cheap and are decent. The build quality isnt quite as good as the higher end receivers in my opinion. Most of the lower end receivers I've messed with were at best buy or circuit city etc. My friend has a pioneer receiver and really likes it. From what I've heard and seen of it its a great receiver for the price point. I myself started with a base line sherwood (about $150). Then moved to a H/K AVR 120 then to the AVR 230. I've been very happy with the H/K receivers in terms of sound quality inputs and outputs and build quality. I had the subwoofer pre out go bad on my AVR 120 and it had to be resoldered. Other than that they have worked great for me. I would been looking for a H/K, Onkyo or denon as top pick. Check around on ebay and craigslist. Also look at www.audiogon.com and www.hometheaterforum.com in there hardware for sale/trade area. I've seen people selling some older Denon receivers for dirt cheap there.


The thing with the computer speakers is there is likely some EQ built into the amplifier. There is probably a high passs filter on all of the speakers to limit the bass. Most receivers only have a 100 Hz high pass filter on the speakers and that may not be enough. On top of that I would be very very supprised if the amp on the Z-5300 puts out anywere near 40 watts of clean power with all channels running. My AVR230 only outputs around 50 watts per channel. Most of the time manufacturers fudge the wattage rating on their amplifiers. The most commmon ones are using only one frequency or only testing one channel. To get an actual measurment of the amplifiers power you have to test it full bandwidth (20 to 20,000Hz) and with all channels driven. So a lot of times for cheaper receivers they will say 100 watts per channel but in reality they just turned on one channel and tested it at max power then said that all channels have 100 watts. But once you run all the channels at the same time the power output is MUCH less. And the other trick is testing at only 1 kHz. Since music is not just one frequency that doesnt work very well. It needs to be full bandwidth.


Now as to any improvments in sound quality thats kinda a loaded question. As I said before it really comes down to the gear you have and how picky you are. I had a Audigy 2 ZS and my corda at the same time. I tested my HD-580's with the corda powering them then with the 580's plugged directly into my computer. For the listening levels I was using there wasnt much of a differnce. I've also tried useing the optical out to my H/K receiver and testing the sound quality. Now it wasnt an A/B test cause I had to unplug the headphones and plug them into the other amp to compare but I thought the difference was minimal. Headphones really dont require much power at all. I would be suprised If anyone ever used more than a watt of power with headphones (well maybe some big electrostat headphones). I would suggest getting the nicer sound card first then test your headphones with it. If you still find it lacking you may need a bit more power. I think you may be able to make much more of an upgrade with new headphones. Something along the lines of the 580's with just the audigy sound card will sound better than the 280's with the receiver in my opinon.


The adaptors are simple 1/8" to RCA cables. you can get them at any local radio shack or online for much cheaper.

Escondido is just north of San Diego :D. I'm in the Escondido San marcos area.



Ryan
 
Looking on ebay, "Nakamichi" are expensive, and look nice, are they any good?

Looks like there are a lot of old stuff on ebay. Are old ones ok, or is there a big difference between older ones and newer ones? Should I only buy one that is "Home Theatre"?

What about AM/FM receiver, does that mean it's a receiver that I can use, plus a radio, or is it just a radio and can't be used for anything else?

I'm thinking about getting a simple stereo receiver first, and seeing how it all works, then study them for longer to find the one that would really suit my needs, and maybe a 5.1 system later on.
 
I believe Nakamichi is a higher end brand. You dont see to may of then around here though so I dont know much about them.

Usually the biggest difference between new and older is the type of processing. The newer receivers will have the latest surround formats like dolby pro logic II etc. A stnad alone AM/FM receiver is just a radio. It doesnt have amps or anything just the tuner.

There are a lot of really good vintage stereo receivers around. I've had quite a few in the past. A lot of people love the vintage marantz stereo receivers but they usually cost a pretty penny. I like the older onkyo stereo receivers and some of the technics receivers.


Ryan
 
Isn't it possible to bypass your sound card, and just use it as a means of hooking your computer upto the receiver? That way there wouldn't be any chance to degrade the audio if the sound card isn't as good as the receiver. Then things like the maximum sample rate and bit depth would be totally reliant on the receiver, right? Receivers are probably 192kbs/24bit, right?(most of them anyway)

It looks like I can "passthrough" my audigy, and go to an external decoder. Would this require the digital out port going to a receiver? Is this what I was talking about in the paragraph above?

Looking on ebay, the 580's are only a little more expensive than these were at retail. They were a gift to me, so I can't complain, and I'm unsure about buying used headphones.

The 580's look really big compared to mine. They are open, while mine are closed, that's supposed to be better for music, right? I've come to like the closed ones, but they do get hot.

Are the next ones up the 650's? Only a few on ebay, cheapest is $300, out of my price range. I might look into the 580's, but I'd still like to get a receiver so that I can get HT speakers later on, and be prepared if I get the 580's.
 
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The digital output on most sound cards should bypass all processing from the sound board i beleive. The connection could be optical or coaxial. The audigy 2 ZS has decent sound quality. I think a receiver like the H/K or Onkyo may edge it out in terms of sound quality with headphones.

I bought my 580's used from a guy at head-fi. They were around $120. So far they have served me very well. The only problem they have developed over the years is the voice coild on the right speaker has a very slight missalignment. So at REALLY high levels with the bass boosted a bunch you hear a slight scracthy sound. I could replace the driver elements in both headphones for around $140 I beleive but the problem never shows up unless I'm pushing they very hard. Overall the 580's hold up very well and if you dont do something stupid like me (like play the Telarc 1812 overture at really loud levels with the bass boost on :/ ) then they should give you years and years of use. The 580's are a bit big but once on your head you will totoalyl forget your waring them. They feel feather light on your head and the soft velour ear cushions are very nice. Since they are open your ears stay very cool and you get a nice clean open sound out of them. I've worn my 580's for over 6 hours in a row with no fatigue whatsoever :).

I dont know much about the 650's. When I was researching headphones it was the 580's and 600's. The only diffrence was the materials. Most people said the 600s were a tad bit cleaner but I heard both and they sounded the same to me. I think the 580's should be a noticable upgrade from the 280's.



Ryan
 
Ryan T said:
I dont know much about the 650's. When I was researching headphones it was the 580's and 600's. The only diffrence was the materials. Most people said the 600s were a tad bit cleaner but I heard both and they sounded the same to me. I think the 580's should be a noticable upgrade from the 280's.



Ryan
HD600 is the same thing as HD580, but different housing. Go to the sennheiser replacement parts site, and look at the drivers for the HD580 and HD600, they are the same. HD650 should be a little better, but much more expensive.
 
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