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Removed my AIO went with a full custom loop.. Little help for ideas on routing

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Cnaydmancangt

Member
Joined
May 12, 2015
I removed my thermaltake AIO, just not happy with it. The pump is a little noisy and the cooling performance sucks. I listed it on my ebay page, Decided to go full custom loop and plumb into the gpu. I bought a EK EVO supremacy block, 6 more Thermaltake riing plus fans as i do like thermaltakes fans and i wanted to stick with the theme i already have going. I bought aa 2nd EK PE 360 radiator, and i bought a EK 250 Reservoir to make my D5 140 pump/res taller. I bought a green helix/T-Virus coil for it and a 2nd reservoir its a Byski Blue T-virus reservoir.

Ima big residentevil fan and i didnt know they made these, i guess they came out like 9 years ago or something lol. I also managed to get Thermaltake to refund me in full for my leaking gpu block. Since Im getting a refund i purchased a Bitspower 1080ti block which has a clear front plate cover for the mosfets vs the metal plates the EK/Thermaltake designs have. So you can actually see the whole block !

The Loop order is what im questioning. Currently i have everything running, im just waiting for the Bitspower block to come tomorrow and ill take the thermaltake block off and mail it out. Right now im just running distilled water in the loop to get an idea on what it looks like. My loop order goes like this. Front 360mm rad to cpu, cpu to upper 360m rad, rad to gpu, gpu to the blue reservoir, blue reservoir to the D5 Pump/res, then pump to the front radiator. To me this order seems best for the cpu to get the cooler liquid first as the front radiator has 6 120mm fans on it and well its getting the outside cold air. The GPU is getting the upper radiator which is sucking the case air and blowing it out. Since GPU's arent as picky as a CPU for temp changes i figured this is the best order.

The only problem is neatness. While I do get being neat is nice a case i also prefer functionality over sacrifice for neatness and this goes in real life as well. I like having my tools where i can get to them vs having them all stored away when working on a car if this makes sense. I was thinking the way the loop is now, there are 2 long hoses that arent really needed per say. The one going fron the pump to the radiator, and the one going from the radiator in front to the cpu.

I could change the loop to be like this instead. res/Pump-cpu-upper rad-gpu-front radiator-res-res/pump. I can also buy 4 90 degree angle fittings on amazon for $16 and put 2 on the reservoirs where they connect to eachother and make the connection only and inch long between the two instead of a long 9 inch U shape. I can put two 90 degree angles on the cpu block, this would make the tube going to the upper radiator only 3 inches vs 6 inches. The other 90 degree angle would be for the pump to cpu and the tube would be mostly behind the vertical GPU and only about 6 inches long vs 14 or whatever it is now going to the radiator. This would also eliminate the 12 inch long tube going to the cpu from the front of the radiator. The radiator to reservoir tube would be only 3 inches long. In the end the only real long tube would be the gpu to the front radiator.

I hope youre all catching my idea lol. The only problem i can see with this routing is the 2 reservoirs are beind the front radiator.. All that hot exhaust is blowing on them, that would just re-heat the water as it travels through two long reservoirs. The way the tubes are routed now the cpu gets the cooled water directly from the front radiator. and the heat blowing on the reservoirs doesnt matter because they connect together after the gpu and go to the radiator lol. So in essence they are being cooled down first by the radiator fans then cooled down even more in the radiator.

Here is a pic of how its routed right now. The reason i have slack on the tubing for the CPU/GPU is in case i need to remove them. I can just take the cpu block off and set it to the side. Same with the gpu.. I dont like hard tubing because you need to drain and disconnect everything.. Again im more functional. The other issue with making the tubes neat like i mentioned and using 90 degree angle fittings to shorteen the tubes with slack is.... well then i cant move the blocks out of the way and id have to drain and remove like hard tubing.

Tell me what you guys think? Oh and before someone says it, i know i dont need two reservoirs. But i wanted it, because to me it looks cool with the T-virus/dna helix. I like the way i have it now, but i also dont like it ? I like the 2nd way better for neatness but i dont like it for cooling and being able to remove the block on the cpu id have to drain everything.. So im torn

Here are pics.

Pic 1 is how its routed right now, with the slack in the tubing pretty accurate.


new 2.jpg

Pic 2 is the other option to shorten everything BUT with the hot air from the radiator blowing on the reservoirs that just got filled with cool liquid and then going to the cpu after being warmed up again...

done template new.jpg

Pic 3 is the case in real time for picture 1

case new.jpg
 
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Silver Surfer

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May 8, 2011
Location
Darlington, South Carolina
Regarding the picture what is the purpose of the second reservoir?

Flow setup looks OK in the picture I just would not be running 2 reservoirs and adding extra flow restriction and a negative ambient heat factor to the mix, but that's just my 2 cents.
 

Blaylock

"That Backfired" Senior Member
Joined
Jun 5, 2013
Location
Go Blue!
To be honest what is most important is that the reservoir feeds directly into the pump which you have. Where the water goes from there and the order is of little difference unless you are trying to eek out every single degree. After a few minutes your water will reach a thermal equilibrium and there will only be a few degrees difference through out the loop. Neither of those scenarios show the GPU feeding the CPU or vice versa so there really won't be any "hot spots" per se. So with that in mind you can determine which run uses the least amount of fittings, the shortest amount of tubing, or if one looks more aesthetically pleasing.
 
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Cnaydmancangt

Member
Joined
May 12, 2015
Regarding the picture what is the purpose of the second reservoir?

Flow setup looks OK in the picture I just would not be running 2 reservoirs and adding extra flow restriction and a negative ambient heat factor to the mix, but that's just my 2 cents.



Have you never seen resident evil or played the video games ? Plus two looks better then 1 to me
Its not ment for cooling.


In the movies the Green is anti virus blue us virus and they are in cylinders with helix coils.


I also disagree on equalibrium... If i run the cool water directly to the cpu itll run slightky cooler then running the cool water to the first res then 2nd res then cpu with both resses getting blown with hot air. Make sense ?

But what im wondering lets pretend here 3-4c increase in cpu temps for a cleaner look in pic 2 or keep it the way its routed in pic 1 and 3. What would you do baylock


 

EarthDog

Gulper Nozzle Co-Owner
Joined
Dec 15, 2008
Location
Buckeyes!
A properly radded and flowing loop doesnt vary by more than 1-2C at any point in the loop. Loop order does not matter so long as the res is before the pump. This was proven a decade ago by martin/skinee labs.

Think about it. 1.5 GPM flow and a ~Liter of liquid, the water doesnt have time to warm up passing tbrough each block as its going through the loop 6x minute...covering give or take about 6' in that time (was my average loop length in tubing).

As far as temps.... i dont chase after every C anymore personally... but that is your call as its your loop and your results you need to live with. :)
 

Blaylock

"That Backfired" Senior Member
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Jun 5, 2013
Location
Go Blue!
You can disagree if you like but physics is physics.

Assuming your worst case scenario of 4°C increase in CPU temps would put my i7-4790k in my custom loop at a max temp of 85°C. My current max I've seen is 81°C while doing hours of Handbrake rendering. At 85°C I still have about 5-10°C before an expected throttle and about 15°C before a thermal shutdown.

In truth I am living this worst case scenario as I am feeding my CPU directly from my pair of GPU's. So I guess the bigger question would be would I get better temps if I re-routed everything. According to physics, maybe a degree or three that's it.

TL;DR - To me aesthetics are more important because my temps are well within the safe limits.

Predator.jpg


EDIT: Full Disclosure: I rarely load my CPU & GPU's at 100% at the same time. Handbrake is CPU intensive but the GPU's are near idle and the games I play are not serious enough to push everything for any length of time.
 
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Cnaydmancangt

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May 12, 2015
You can disagree if you like but physics is physics.

Assuming your worst case scenario of 4°C increase in CPU temps would put my i7-4790k in my custom loop at a max temp of 85°C. My current max I've seen is 81°C while doing hours of Handbrake rendering. At 85°C I still have about 5-10°C before an expected throttle and about 15°C before a thermal shutdown.

In truth I am living this worst case scenario as I am feeding my CPU directly from my pair of GPU's. So I guess the bigger question would be would I get better temps if I re-routed everything. According to physics, maybe a degree or three that's it.

TL;DR - To me aesthetics are more important because my temps are well within the safe limits.

View attachment 199967



Expain to me the physics of water not warming up passing from a cooled source through two almost 500ml reservoirs heatsoaking air thats warm/hot blowing on them ? Im confused on how that works. Being genuine here because to me it makes no sense but im trying to understand this ? As for loop order.. they did loop orders with gpu and cpu didnt they, did they test the effects of a loop order from two reservoirs soaking hot air ? Directly behind the radiator ? Thats what im wondering. I dont doubt gpu/cpu and cpu/gpu, but mine seems a little different then that ?
 

Blaylock

"That Backfired" Senior Member
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Location
Go Blue!
IMO the biggest misconception with water cooling is the hot water/cold water theory that claims water is hot before it gets to the rad but cool when it comes out. Imagine water passing through a garden hose. Now lets place heatsinks along the outside of the hose. Only the water that's fortunate enough to touch the outer wall of the hose will get cooled by the heatsinks. The remainder of the water will reduce in temperature as it is constantly trying to reach thermal equilibrium. This is how a radiator works. Not all the water entering will get cooled. The same is true for the water entering a water block. That's the whole reason the blocks have so many tiny fins and are made from materials that assist in the thermal transfer. I know you understand all of this but don't put so much weight on the hot water/cold water theory. In truth it's the volume of water over a period of time that cools much better than air. If you place a temp sensor in front of a radiator and one behind it you will see that there is only a few degrees difference, especially after you allow the loop to reach that equilibrium.

The "warm air" blowing on the reservoirs, is the air hotter than to water inside? Does the reservoir tube act as a thermal barrier or is it made from materials that are good at transferring thermal temperatures like copper does?
 
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Cnaydmancangt

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May 12, 2015
Acrylic/plastics hold temperatures better then say glass, because i also do aquariums as a hobby as acrylic tanks dont need to be warmed up as often as glass tanks do because they are amazing at holding heat and id imagine that works for a hot room and heat soak as welll.. Glass is a good at heat dissapation compared to plastic so id imagine the reservoirs holding temps . Kinda off topic and i dunno where im going with that LOL.

The air no isnt hotter then the water going in the radiator because its the same temperature, but what about the water coming out of the radiator. This comes down to the speed/equalibrium thing that loop order discussions all talk about. I just re-read Vapors test on loop orders.. but his test was based more on headpressure arguments for loop orders. Something im not arguing.. I just watched a video with Jayz2cents that he made like 15 days ago and his test on loop order was in a open air setup cpu/gpu to gpu/cpu.. And he saw a 1c temp difference, but again this isnt what im arguing.. Im arguing the heatsoak from 1 liter of water before it goes back to the cpu..

I guess the only way to find out is to test it lol...

Im probably hurting my brain overthinking over nothing. What do you think would look better ? The tubing the way it is now when i add a dye into the liquid or to remove half the tubing ? Ill basically be removing half the tubing you see in my pic almost. In a way the amount of tubing i have now looks pretty good specially when i put that lime/uv dye or blue dye or red dye i have in. If i remove half the tubing i wont have color effect as much anymore.
Uhg one thing about me is i question everything and cant make a decision without input from others
 

Blaylock

"That Backfired" Senior Member
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Jun 5, 2013
Location
Go Blue!
Here's a really good (very old) read. They are using a 50W pump in the example but you could easily change the numbers to reflect the TDP of a GPU to find your actual numbers.

Myth: The order of components has a significant impact on temps
(eg, the radiator must be before the CPU).

Reality: The order of components makes a difference of less than 0.5ºC
in most watercooling systems. The physics:

pump—->radiator—->CPU—->pump
pump—->CPU—->radiator—->pump

There is only one difference, and that is the position of the pump
in the loop, be it before or after the CPU.

Assuming the pump dumps about 50 watts of heat into the water and the flow
rate is 1 gallon/minute (gpm – very reasonable assumptions):

Water has a thermal capacity of 4186J/Kg-C at 22ºC and a density
of about 1g/mL

With a flow rate of 1 gpm, that’s ~3.75 liters/minute (lpm).

3.75 lpm / 60 seconds= 0.0625 liters or kilograms through the
waterblocks per second.

4186 * 0.0625 = 261.625 W/C

So that’s 1ºC warmer for every 261 watts; but only 50 watts of heat are present, so:

50 / 261.625 = 0.19ºC

Ergo there is a 0.19ºC difference in water temperature between the
inlet and outlet of the pump. This does not mean the water is only
0.19ºC warmer than air – that is an entirely different calculation.

And that’s with 50 watts. If you’re running a smaller pump, such as
the D4, you’re looking at about 15 watts.

So, do what allows for the simplest tubing runs – tubing
length/kinking will have a greater impact on temps.

Sauce if you want the whole article.
 
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Cnaydmancangt

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May 12, 2015
Yea but that article talks about pumps introducing heat into the link something i never questioned was a myth.. Does any of what im saying make sense to you, i feel like the hot air blowing onto the two reservoirs then back to the cpu is counter producting then going back to the cpu directly. My brain cant seem to get passed that lol.

I also answered your question, acrylic is a great material for holding temperature.. be it heat or cold. Fish tanks prove this, glass tanks needs heaters on 2-3x longer then acrylic tanks do due to glass losing heat quickly, so i guess the acrylic if it holds temperatures wouldnt really heatsoak in the amount of time the liquid is passing through
 

Blaylock

"That Backfired" Senior Member
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Jun 5, 2013
Location
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I truly don't mind these discussions. I think they are great and I would much rather you over think something than under think it so don't be too hard on yourself. Remember success follows preparation in equal measures.

For your run I would recommend #1 keep the number of fittings to a minimum. #2 the more tubing you have the "longer" it will take for your water to get to the radiators so if you can reduce the amount of tubing that's a good thing. #3 make it look good. Looks are based on the eye of the beholder. I personally like straight lines and symmetry. Others may like big looping curves and arcs. Make it look the way you want it to look. You'll be the one staring at it for the next few years until you need to rebuild it.


EDIT: I wouldn't worry about the reservoir having warm air blowing on it honestly. My point was simply that the res is not a radiator and it's not designed to "absorb" temps. It will be fine.
 
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Cnaydmancangt

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May 12, 2015
Guess ill keep it the way it is now, when i dye the water after i put my new block on today Id rather have the tubing amount the way it is in the pic so i can see the dye in more tube length, if i shorten and remove all the long tubing the only liquid id see is in the reservoir and gpu block with 5 hoses only being like 2-3 inches long. Iordered the fittings anyway just now. Ill try both ways. I think i have enough tubing to try that without cutting what i have in the system


Also 1 AND 3 are the same, look at the tubing in 3 and the pic on 1. I just drew the pic to show people the direction it flows. So its either option 1 or 2
 

UltraTaco

Member
Joined
Oct 28, 2017
I'm so glad I don't have to stare at my PC guts. Side cover on and pc stashed underneath the table.

Beautiful life+muscle performance=genius man according to this project work.
 

UltraTaco

Member
Joined
Oct 28, 2017
Beautiful life- wires and the rest of electronic mess tucked away
Muscle performance- fast performing cpu
Genius man- nothing to add here.
It all makes sense, not sure why the confusion.
Taco is not a machine.