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So I'm going to build a game server using Opterons

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SK8 said:
I would at least have the drives in a raid 1 config so if one failes then it goes right of the other so its redundant but like you said it doesnt have any critical data :X

Agreed. RAID 0 is really unnecessary for a gaming server (almost everything will be in RAM.) I would recommend getting two drives in RAID 1, or just running a single drive with the OS on one partition, games on another partition, and another (cheap) drive for making Ghost backups onto. That way, if the primary drive fails (or just one partition gets messed up, like the OS partition), then you can very quickly and easily use Ghost to restore the drive, or particulary partition.

Again, RAID 0 = overkill and destined to fail quicker than a single drive setup or RAID 1.

I also think getting some cheaper 242's is a good idea, since your server will be using very little CPU time. RAM is what you need a ton of, not CPU power. Save money on the CPU's and buy as much RAM as you can afford.
 
some game server apps are very cpu intensive ive found. and if hes useing 30mbps of bandwidth, he must be up to something pretty big. though 242's do sound like a better idea to me, especially if you are coming off 1.2ghz thunderbirds. you will still have a strong upgrade path, maybe even to dual core processors.
 
cmcquistion said:
Again, RAID 0 = overkill and destined to fail quicker than a single drive setup or RAID 1.
Point taken. The hosting guys seem to like it, but I've never been a big fan of it myself either. I was kind of waiting to see what you and AudioAficionado would have for input on this.
 
what about raid 5 does anybody use it these days whats worng here I think 3 drives and 1 spare would last till next upgrade which should be the os if you are using 64 bit setup. Also ram 2gb is nice start . I think opt setup is good setup with the 242 can last a while all you want is high i/o transfer rate. raid 5 is more common in servers as you can always add more harddrives and hot swap is a plus. a nice 64 bit raid card with 256 ecc memory on it for cache. well thats what I would do even xeons that would work too sense it will get cheaper so you can buy more harddrives or memory something.
 
Donedeal, I've used RAID 5 for several years, at work, and I'm not a big fan of it. RAID 5 with 3 or four drives is often slower than a simple RAID 1 setup. I finally replaced the 5 SCSI drives in my RAID 5 with two 15K SCSI drives in RAID 1. Big speed improvement!

Donny, the reason I feel so strongly abour RAID 0 in a server, is this...

Every drive has only a limited time before it will fail. If you are counting on two drives, working together, in RAID 0, then you have doubled your chance of a failure. The RAID controller, itself, adds some another point of failure and now your drive array is three or four times as likely to fail as a single drive setup. This doesn't mean that it WILL fail, of course. Some hard drives run for ten years and never fail. Some run for six months, before failing, though. I've had RAID 0 arrays that failed after a few weeks or months. Others lasted over a year, without a hiccup.

In my opinion, RAID 0 is good for benchmarks and bragging rights, but is really unneccessary and unwise for a server.
 
Yes RAID1 is the way to go. RAID5 is slower and more expensive than RAID1 as cmcquisition stated, and RAID0 (actually not RAID since nothing is redundant) is just for playing around. So get a server board that'll hold a lot of DDR, setup a simple SATA RAID1 array, and you should be set with pair of inexpensive 242s.
 
wait a min so I know that raid 5 is slow at write times but read is speed up and there is a slight increase in read performance. so wite is the same as a single drive but also you can rebuild a failed drive. Ok so not everybody need raid 5 i suggest it cause of its falt tol. and also the ability to upgrade. And I thought he will be reading off those drives more than writing so that is faster than raid 1, so maybe 0+1 is better off for him then. as fast read and write with the mirrored drives for you backups. They are so many options when building a rig my focus has always be on the harddrive system, memeory and processor last. I know it can be expensive but thrers an answer for every question. I think lost cricuits should have some benches or toms hardware did an rewiew with a promise controller I think in raid 5. Anyway (kiss) is what they told me back in kindergraden.
 
Wow . . . First time I've posted a reply to a thread since they upgraded . . . a hair different ;)

Anyway, I would agree that it's most likely not a processor bottleneck, so the 242s ought to be more than enough. For some reason, I doubt that it's a lack of RAM, as somebody said above, but lack of memory bandwidth. PC2100 is slow enough as it is, but without a dual channel interface, it just doesn't have a chance . . . 875 kicks the NForce2 in bandwidth by quite a margin, last time I checked, and that's in dual channel. Now that you can get Xeons on an 875 chipset, it makes the 760 chipset look still more dated.

Processor-wise, I think that Xeons would certainly perform the job just as well, and if price cuts are indeed substantial with the introduction of Naconas, they might be even more appealing. But at the same time, the advent of Naconas basically opens the coffin for Prestonias . . . A 240 really doesn't compete all that well with a 2.4 Xeon, so I'd say that in terms of performance alone, a 2.4 Xeon and a 242 are about even. So, in my mind, unless price cuts are huge and price is a deciding factor, there's no reason to go with a Xeon, since there's clearly not much of an upgrade path. With Opterons, you get at the very least a few speed bumps, x86-64, and perhaps dual core (fingers crossed).

I think RAID, in any form, ought to be as simple as possible. Most of the data needed is going to be in RAM (unless somebody intends to let it serve data on the side), so having a huge RAID array seems sorta' silly. A 10k RPM drive ought to be enough on its own for read, writes, and latency, but I can see the point in the redundancy of RAID1. SCSI seems like a waste, and RAID5 even more.

In terms of the MSI board without NUMA, there is only a slight difference in memory scores at the moment, with NUMA boards winning by a hair (I think . . . it's been quite a while since I checked), but if you switch to x86-64 in the future, you'll pick up quite a gain. If you're counting x86-64 as a pro, then I think you ought to make use of it when you can, and if this has as long a life-cycle as you intend it to, you might well need it later on. Also, don't forget the ability to hold twice the RAM in NUMA boards. Games suck a lot of RAM, and that's only going to get worse . . . In two or three years, how will 4GB of RAM hold up to modern games?

So I think a NUMA board with 242s, 2GB of RAM (4 if you don't want to replace existing RAM in an upgrade), and a single Raptor (or two Raptors in RAID1) is a great platform. It's not too spendy, it's got a long life ahead of it, and it eradicates your memory bottleneck. Only trouble will be if AMD switches to DDR2 before it adds dual cores . . . then you'll need to replace the whole rig . . . :bang head :bang head :bang head

Z
 
ha homer is knocking him out lol. ill say go with the pros and keep it simple cause nobody likes to take there time to build and catch the sales when they come. I might take 3 months before I get all my parts but it get finished anyway cause im cheap but I want the best at the best price. well I forgot what to say
 
cmcquistion said:
Donny, the reason I feel so strongly abour RAID 0 in a server, is this...
Agreed. I'm not too fond of RAID 0 on my personal systems as I prefer to run a single, fast, SCSI disk. It was worth investigating since the guys who normally build these seemed to think it was a good idea, but then again, we could all probably teach them a thing or two.
zachj said:
a lot of good stuff
Excellent, thank you. Especially for your clarification of NUMA benefits. That's my biggest decision left to make (or it was until a few moments ago).

I think I've got a solidified configuration now. This week I'll be ordering:
  • (2) Opteron 242s
  • Tyan Thunder K8W
  • 2gb of RAM, 4x 512mb sticks, 1gb for each CPU, respectively
  • 2x 74gb Raptors in RAID 1 (I already have the drives, so I may as well)
  • Antec SX1000 series case, PC P&C EPS12V power supply, generic everything else
You guys sold me on the NUMA board with less expensive CPUs for the moment. Like I said, upgradability is my paramount concern here, and this thing will last us well into the 64-bit OS era. NUMA seems like a no-brainer with that taken into consideration.

I'm pretty much set now. Again, thanks for all the help. I'll probably post a few pictures and benchmarks once I get the stuff and have it all put together. Should be by the end of July (we're having a LAN party and we'll be breaking it in there).
 
BF and BFV servers don't only need RAM, they also need quite a bit of cpu power. The only real difference RAID 0 / SCSI would make is improving map loading time by quite a bit.
By the way, why use Windows for a server?
 
the reason for running windows on a server is probably the whole reason that most games aren't ported to linux. the last time i checked half life, counterstrike, and ut2004 are the only linux ports
 
Quake 1-3, Battlefield, UT99-2004, Call Of Duty, Half-Life, GTA: MTA, Jedi Knight 2 & 3, Star Trek Elite Force, RTCW & ET, Neverwinter Nights, Operation Flashpoint, Tribes 2 and Soldier Of Fortune 1 & 2 are only a few of the games that support *NIX servers. Some of them, like Tribes 2 and UT2003/2004, were also ported to run under *NIX natively.
In my humble opinion, there is no reason to get a Windows server. For a desktop pc used for gaming and such, Windows is of course the OS of choice due to the sheer amount of applications and games available. But I'd never entrust any Microsoft OS with server duties. Most server apps just run slower and hog more ressources under Windows than under *NIX, not to speak of the increased crash-proneness. Any game that doesn't offer *NIX dedicated servers won't get a lot of servers and therefore will get forgotton quite soon.
For an example, the FarCry community is currently closing down tons of sites because the developers haven't released the promised latest patch, SDK and Linux port. The game is dying shortly after its release.
 
I don't think donny mentioned which OS he intends to run on his server, but outside of cost, I hardly think it's all that important which one he uses. Despite the number of virii written to target Windows, didn't I read somewhere a few months ago that Linux was becoming more targeted due to its prominence in the server market? Also, Linux has lost some of its minimalism appeal (as per the article on the front page a week ago or so) in the last years. Turning off GUI features and not installing all of the word processors and games and extra garbage will certainly avoid most of that, but it's still not the uber OS it used to be. I never found upgrading Linux any more pleasant than upgrading Windows, and it has its fair share of those to keep it as secure as it is. Lastly, aren't a few distributions not quite up to snuff with 64-bit support? I'd say that makes the decision between *nix and Windows rather cloudy . . .

Glad I could give some input . . .

Z
 
zachj said:
I don't think donny mentioned which OS he intends to run on his server

donny_paycheck said:
Just a question about that one. I thought NUMA wouldn't work under OSes like Win2k, which is what we'll be using.
 
Let's agree to agree about something:

Linux is fantastic, if you know how to use it and are comfortable with it.

If you aren't, then sometimes Windows is a better OS to use, simply because someone may be much more familiar with it.
 
We have a setup much the same here at work, and the thing does virus filtering for about 2 million messages a day without slowing down, lag, or any seen problems. I myself wouldn't change anything, I also would do what you said, get gig sticks and keep 2 slots open. The server we have is a 1U rackmount, and was pricey, it was about $2700.
 
"I don't think donny mentioned which OS he intends to run on his server"

Searching for the string "windows" didn't turn up a donny post, so I assumed he hadn't mentioned it . . . Guess I should have searched for "win" :) . . . My mistake. I think either is suitable for this application, though, and I imagine that's what they were using before. Whatever works, though.

Z
 
We'll be using win2k at first. That's what we use now. Although we could run Linux if we choose to, and we'll be upgrading to the 64-bit Windows derivative when it comes out in full. This stuff gets taken care of by our hosting service though, and not me.
 
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