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So, who's getting a 5XXX series card?

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I think low end computers will be handhelds because they can be. Not because it gives freedom to game anywhere.
Actually, if we don't limit ourselves to x86 then you have a point. Tablets with keyboards are already an entry level "computer" for many where a phone is still too small. Mobile gaming handheld has a point for existing. I'm not so sure there is the same argument outside of gaming. Low end laptops have always been a thing.

The hardware tradeoff is discrete vs dedicated GPU. Dedicated GPUs for handhelds are already a market and will probably grow. Gives a nice option to upgrade while saving money on the overall product, great for lower income players who need to buy over time instead of at once.
Not sure where you're going with this one. If you mean the external GPU, which is typically a dGPU in a powered enclosure with high performance interconnect (Thunderbolt/OCuLink), I really don't see that going anywhere. It is messy. It is expensive. It is a niche.

Power will continue to rise and is being planned on. In the R&D areas of tech, money is being put into watercooling solutions and higher power input. Server industry will start to use 48V-DC as the main source instead of 12V-DC to enable higher current pulling with better efficiencies.
I think context is important here. In the volume mainstream PC space, I don't see power increasing much in recent generations. 60 tier GPU gets you change from 200W, base 70 tier 250W or under. Highest end going up is not raising the floor. CPUs are more complicated but it feels like we've hit peak with Raptor Lake and it will trend down. Mobile devices like laptops can't really increase in power unless we get a revolution in battery technology. The enterprise space is its own thing. IMO from an engineering perspective, it is more a question why they didn't make the move a lot earlier, like a decade ago. In consumer space, you need everyone to agree to the same standard at the same time. That's the bigger problem than anything engineering wise. A big enough deployment, we're talking MS/Google/Amazon level "big" here, can pretty much dictate what they want.
 
Handhelds need a long way of improvements to be actually good. If we skip Nintendo Switch (which isn't perfect, but somehow is better as a whole product), then every single handheld console released in the last years runs hot, battery lasts for maybe 2 hours, and is still too slow for many games (or you like to play at 720p). Additionally, there is also what mackerel mentioned, some games are really annoying on small screen, not to mention office applications.

I see that computers are getting smaller, but displays are getting bigger. At work, we only buy 27" right now, and our clients pick 27" for office work, too. So you can get a well-performing NUC or other small PC, but you still wish to use it with a large display, not a 7" handheld that still would need a mouse and keyboard to be useful for most tasks.

ASUS "plugless GPU" still requires an additional slot on the motherboard to deliver power and the motherboard needs to transfer that and have additional plugs. So it's not that it doesn't have the plug, but it has it somewhere else. They should simply fix the problem with high-power plugs, so only one would be required and so it was 100% safe to use. Later it doesn't matter if you use it for a motherboard or directly to the graphics card.
In addition , I have both the OLED Switch and Steam Deck. The biggest problem is anyone over 55 has problems seeing the screen. I used it in my easy chair and it was always plugged in. Till I got a gaming Laptop . that is a much better solution for old people. (Also can't last 2 hours off battery) I used magnify glasses with the handhelds.
 
Let me square up my argument for the low end and why I think handhelds will become the main PC. The device is just like a NUC with the addition of a portable feature. I'm not sure on the current percentage of users, but I have seen many people setup their steamdeck and similar to be a standard PC. The price of a handheld is far cheaper than custom built system. NUCs and similar are also close to the cost, but if I was a gamer and in that market, a handheld would look better to me because I can bring it anywhere. You can think of it as the older bulky laptops that were desktop replacers.

I agree that these devices are not yet suited for max settings 1080p just yet, but I do not think we are too far from that point. Especially when Asus and others are already putting mobile dedicated GPUs into these devices.

Idk, it seems like a great area for the low end market, and it adds in a lot of potential modding/upgrade money that companies would like to be apart of.

So for my argument, think less about focusing on people playing on these devices in their handheld state, and more as a desktop replacement.


@mackerel

On your point about the R&D and why its now just happening, I have small insight into this. The power demand was always coming, it was a matter of when do we (tech companies) switch over? Just like watercooling, it was all about requirements and demand. It should come to no surprise that all these tech companies that produce tech on an iterative basis want to keep cost down with each step so they can maximize profit. Additionally, no company wants to be the first to try something and have it fail. A lot of these companies had learned from past experiments in the 80s, and 90s and the dotcom boom to learn that its best to reuse what is working until the industry needs to shift. Well because of LLMs/NNs now being required in nearly every chip and software, the power demand has skyrocketed. All of it could go away the instant some research group proves out a faster and lower cost algorithem to reach the same goal, but since these algorithems have been in development for decades (30+ years in some cases) I doubt we'll see something soon. So for now, expect the trend of power increase for desktop and server.


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In other news, it looks like OC editions will be with the GPU memory rather than core clock. Looks like we'll see more performance increase on memory speeds than core speeds tracking with previous cards.
 
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Let me square up my argument for the low end and why I think handhelds will become the main PC. The device is just like a NUC with the addition of a portable feature. I'm not sure on the current percentage of users, but I have seen many people setup their steamdeck and similar to be a standard PC. The price of a handheld is far cheaper than custom built system. NUCs and similar are also close to the cost, but if I was a gamer and in that market, a handheld would look better to me because I can bring it anywhere. You can think of it as the older bulky laptops that were desktop replacers.

I agree that these devices are not yet suited for max settings 1080p just yet, but I do not think we are too far from that point. Especially when Asus and others are already putting mobile dedicated GPUs into these devices.

Idk, it seems like a great area for the low end market, and it adds in a lot of potential modding/upgrade money that companies would like to be apart of.

So for my argument, think less about focusing on people playing on these devices in their handheld state, and more as a desktop replacement.

I installed Windows on my SteamDeck too, but it doesn't mean it's any good. I wanted to use it as a laptop replacement, but it's impossible because of what I said in my previous post. I guess you don't have any of the modern handhelds as the theory is far from reality and people on the web usually try justify their bad choices, so skip many issues.

Mobility is a myth because of how fast you can drain the battery. If it's not a trip to the nearest grocery store (why would you go there with a console?), you need a charger with you, so it's like carrying a laptop with a power supply. Every model's battery lasts for 1-2 hours in any more demanding 3D game. In comparison, you can get about 3-4 hours out of a Nintendo Switch and, with an additional battery, up to 9 hours. Switch+battery is as large as bare ASUS, MSI or whatever else is there.

Except for SteamDeck on sale, every other handheld console costs like a cheaper gaming laptop. Every is also as loud as a typical gaming laptop - read it as way too loud to play without a headset for longer.
Every handheld has a CPU with integrated graphics, which is not much better than the desktop integrated graphics because of the required power limits. 1080p is usually possible at lower details and ~30FPS.

All the accessories to connect them to a monitor/TV and other devices are not cheap. I mean, an additional docking station costs $100 or more. Why would you pay $700+ for a handheld console, with all the cables, power supply, etc., making a mess on your desk when you can have a simple mini PC or a laptop that takes as much or less space? To use a handheld in a desktop mode, you still need a mouse and a keyboard or anything else that lets you use it on a bigger screen.
You can replace a desktop with handhelds right now, but in a typical scenario, they are louder, slower, cost a lot, and don't save space at all.


Back to the RTX5000 topic, I don't feel like all these AI features, NNs, etc., change anything in the desktop component power draw. All the low-power chips or mid-series are far more efficient. Look only at new Intel CPUs with separated NPUs. If you check the RTX5000 series, then only the RTX5090 has a very high power draw, but it also has many more cores, more RAM, and other things than the RTX4090. GDDR7 has a high power draw, and they put 32GB of it. Every other GPU is +/- a replacement for the last gen. regarding the power draw, but they are faster.

Memory overclocking for top graphics card models has always been marginally helpful because of the already wide memory bus and high bandwidth. You could see a boost on lower models in the last 3-4 generations. Maybe in some applications, it will help, but somehow, I doubt we will see any significant difference between reference and OC models.
Btw. I wouldn't touch Zotac if I had $2k+ to spend.

What is interesting is that many RTX5090 models have liquid metal on GPUs. Brands like Gigabyte also use some magic "server grade" gel instead of thermal pads. This was mentioned in some press releases and is also listed on the product pages of some brands.
 
So for my argument, think less about focusing on people playing on these devices in their handheld state, and more as a desktop replacement.
I'm still trying to figure out why someone who is not buying one for gaming use would want a handheld PC. Low end laptops already fill that space, as do tablets. A laptop is self contained and can be used without external stuff. My Samsung tablet has a "desktop" mode although I never tried it, and I'd imagine it is something closer to a Chromebook at that point, at best some Linux desktop experience.

Is someone going to use a Steam Deck without external accessories as a non-gaming PC? If you add peripherals, NUCs, or the old cheaper nettops could make a comeback. There were even compute sticks for a time which could be revived.

I'm sure someone somewhere has a use case for that, but I really can't see it going mainstream for the non-gamer world.

Memory overclocking for top graphics card models has always been marginally helpful because of the already wide memory bus and high bandwidth. You could see a boost on lower models in the last 3-4 generations. Maybe in some applications, it will help, but somehow, I doubt we will see any significant difference between reference and OC models.
It depends on the specific ratio of compute resource to bandwidth. 4090 was badly starved so it showed relatively small gains over lower models in gaming given its much higher raw compute potential. 5070 Ti might perform above its weight because of that, same memory system as 5080 but a good proportion less compute.

The biggest problem is anyone over 55 has problems seeing the screen.
I'm not 50 yet (soon!) and seeing fine detail on a phone screen is already a challenge. I know I'm losing close focus capability as well as declining low light sensitivity as I age, but I've not got around to getting my eyes checked yet to see if glasses would help.
 
It seems like this gen actually has zero ipc gains. The 5090 has about a third more cores than the 4090 and about a third more performance for almost a third more power usage. Sort of an rtx 4095ti or something. Really looking forward to the reviews to see how she flies and hoping the new tech is surprising. It's like they hit a wall with raster and have to lean on new techniques which in all fairness is what Jensen said when he mentioned "impossible without AI".
 
It seems like this gen actually has zero ipc gains. The 5090 has about a third more cores than the 4090 and about a third more performance for almost a third more power usage. Sort of an rtx 4095ti or something. Really looking forward to the reviews to see how she flies and hoping the new tech is surprising. It's like they hit a wall with raster and have to lean on new techniques which in all fairness is what Jensen said when he mentioned "impossible without AI".

There are some improvements, but generally, it's about what you said. There is a focus on AI, like everything else on the market. It's the new RGB ;)
On the other hand, I saw that the RTX4000 will also receive some improvements once the new driver series is released. Either way, I guess I will keep the RTX4070S for longer in my gaming PC, and I would only be happy if I could replace the test/review graphics card with something newer.
 
I'd be happy with the FE...
As would I. However, if the lack of water block announcements for the FE is anything to go on, I'm a little apprehensive to pulling that trigger. I simply don't want an air cooled setup.

In addition , I have both the OLED Switch and Steam Deck. The biggest problem is anyone over 55 has problems seeing the screen.

If only someone made something to put on your face to help with that. ;)

I'm quickly getting into that camp, but fortunately, my normal reading distance isn't affected yet. But any close electronics work...fuhgeddaboudit.
 
As would I. However, if the lack of water block announcements for the FE is anything to go on, I'm a little apprehensive to pulling that trigger. I simply don't want an air cooled setup.

A few blocks for the FE have already been announced and should be available soon. Brands like Alphacool presented them at CES. The same for some other models, but mainly for those most popular brands like ASUS or MSI.

If only someone made something to put on your face to help with that. ;)

I'm quickly getting into that camp, but fortunately, my normal reading distance isn't affected yet. But any close electronics work...fuhgeddaboudit.

I wear glasses from time to time, mainly when I use a PC for longer (more like typing than playing games). However, my head hurts when I solder SMD or other small things. I used to solder a lot in the past, but not anymore. I barely passed 30 years ... 10 years ago. I'm still in good condition, even though my warranty expired a long time ago.
 
A few blocks for the FE have already been announced and should be available soon. Brands like Alphacool presented them at CES. The same for some other models, but mainly for those most popular brands like ASUS or MSI.

For FE cards? I've not seen one single reference to anyone producing a block for the FE cards, whether shown at CES but not announced or otherwise.

They even said:
I wouldn't bet on whether there will be FE coolers at the moment. Especially not a house. The probability that you will lose is quite high. The known information actually only shows that it would be almost idiotic to make a water cooler for it. The cooler would probably be extremely expensive and complex. Especially with regard to the PCIe slot and the monitor connections. The layout is completely new and nobody has any experience with it. If you definitely want a water cooling system, you shouldn't look at the FE at the moment.
 
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For FE cards? I've not seen one single reference to anyone producing a block for the FE cards, whether shown at CES but not announced or otherwise.

Now I see that press releases were misleading. You are right, the FE version is "possible but not ready yet". The main problem is double PCB and there was a comment that Alphacool didn't have the card to measure it.
However, there are some cards like Gigabyte Waterforce, with already preinstalled blocks. I wonder if they will cost more than a FE+block as blocks are listed for about $300.
 
Any 3rd party absolutely will be more than the FE for likely no benefit, which is why I'm partial to the FE. Any card would be going under water anyway, and certainly not an AIO.
 
I meant cards with blocks, like the linked Gigabyte ... but not AIO ... and if these cards will cost as much as FE+block or more.
 
@Woomack

The early numbers of performance start to prove my point about the power usage increase. From architectural papers that I've read for a few years, it seemed like GPU compute was getting closer to a wall for rasterization. That or they decided to shift focus entirely with their engineers and push on other processing engines. Each company is producing tile like glue engines that they can be produced on separate silicon wafers and than packaged later. This means a set tile configuration and performance for each generation. A leap and bounds approach to performance will only happen with the tile architecture gets perfected and things like memory management become less costly in performance. Proven practice so far paints a good picture that 4k native rendering w/ Luman, RT or any other advanced lighting/shading schemes require a large number of compute tiles. So decisions are being made that power is fine to increase in order to keep performance gains, and that increase of power is for the higher amounts of tiles.
 
From what I understand... for BnM, Best Buy is exclusive to FE cards (for now).... so if you want one of those, don't go to Mircrocenter. ;)
 
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