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The Fridge connection or how to cool it with a...

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Ammethyl

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Joined
Feb 27, 2001
Intro: (you can skip it)
First post of the thread, this is probably gonna be modified a few times...
For the one that really want to push their machines to their quantum(?)limit, supercooling is almost unavoidable. But when we talk about supercooling, we are usually referring to CPU supercooling. Many path lead to what I would call Global Cooling: Submersed cooling [1] (give a long term bath to all the electronic part, in a non-conductive refrigerated liquid)[/1], Canadian-Russian-Swedish cooling [1] (put the case outside or duct so outdoor air in the PC)(do Mac users overclock?)[/1] , Separated specific cooling [1] (strap peltiers and waterblocks on almost anything that's dark and has pin on it)[/1] to name a few.
The method I'll be considering here is simply Motherboard refrigeration. I know that a few of us are fantasizing about this. But in this thread, we will manage to develop an efficient (and cost effective)(and safe[4] ?[/4] )way to implement the latter.

Real post:
Basic idea:

To put the Motherboard in a freezer so everything from Agp to the Uart (CPU and Ram included)[2](I found nothing with Z)[/2] is cooled below zero. Then you can use whatever noisy fan you want, since it's noise insulated too.

Step 1:[1](anywhere you see *, I have some unanswered question about it)[/1]You buy a used freezer, or fridge [2](that you would also "overclock" to make it a freezer --you see it's all about OCing)[/2]. This should not cost you over 125$ (canadian). Manage to know it's lowest temperature [1]I would aim at -10C and less[/1]and the amount of heat it can pump (You need it to pump more at least 175 W for a TBird Mobo)(I think that it can pump about 4 times more watt than they use (say:a 50 watts fridge would pump 200 W).

Step2: Put some masking tape on any socket, slot, blabla. Put a few layers of water resistant Lacquer on it (*,*,*). This would greatly reduce the condensation related dangers.

Step3: Fit, anyhow you want, the motherboard in the freezer. You will make a hole, in the freezer's wall, for the Cables. Foam the hole with some canned foam (yes, it's permanent)Beware, you want it to be sealed, so no humid air would enter.

Annexes: The ATX case will be used to host the PSU, the drives and external ports if you want.

You'll probably need a HSF only on the CPU, now you can use the loudest most scary 50dbA fan you dream of (the fan is still important since you still want your CPU to get as close as possible from the freezer's air temp. I have some plan for adapting a 120mm fan with a cone shaped duct that will rush all it's air on the heatsink.

Even though you waterproofed the Mobo, you may not appreciate the presence of a two inches thick frost coating on it, so, even if the freezer is frost free, you will avoid opening it. This means that you'll need a JUMPERLESS MOBO (or at least try not to play too much with the jumpers).


My vision of condensation:
Condensation (or frost) on CPU is extremely unlikely, since it's temp will be well above the freezer's air. The humidity will be prone to run toward the colder freezer's wall (or it's "cold" sink). The MoBo and the RAM will also be somewhat warmer, so it will be more or less protected.

Questions I ask to myself:
-What is the max allowable length of EIDE cable.
-Is there any danger apply Lacquer (or any other sealant) on the Mobo.(you know, solvents and blabla.)
Will a small 4 Cubic foot is powerful enough to cool a beast like a 2.2 volt TBird [email protected],6Ghz ( that can be something like 75 watt)
I'm personally planning to use :
-Global cooling device
-TBird 900 or 950
-MSI Turbo-R
-TNT2 32 Meg (I'm into sound, not games)
-768 Mb PC-133
-(on-board sound card) (till I can afford a real one, not an SBLive)
-Alpha's HS with any very powerful, noisy fan
 

MsNath

Member
Joined
Feb 4, 2001
Well thought out!

My only comment at this point is on the lenght of the IDE cables. If you are running ATA100 you are limited to 18" cables you can use longer cables but HD preformance will drop. For anything less than ATA100 that I believe 24" is not a problem. ie 33/66 HDs, CDroms exct.

Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong on this.
 
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Ammethyl

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Feb 27, 2001
MsNath (Mar 02, 2001 01:22 p.m.):
My only comment at this point is on the lenght of the IDE cables . If you are running ATA100 you are limited to 18" cables you can use longer cables but HD performance will drop. For anything less than ATA100 that I believe 24" is not a problem. ie 33/66 HDs, CDroms exct.

Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong on this.

I don'T think I will have to correct you in any way. Instead, I will state that I understand now why you were proposing to "carve" an isolated box in the [3]The Fridge[/3] . [1] ref: Cooling/What next? [/1] . I see another alternative, but this just a kind of proposal:
Make a small insolated box (or jacket) to protect the HD so it can be safely put in [3] The Fridge[/3] . One problem though: Since it (the HD) will be inside the system [1] (I mean like in physics:closed system)[/1] all the heat it generates will also have to be pumped. If the freezer is strong enough it could cope with that (so, I'm gonna check how much a 7200 RPM HD draws).

I think I will soon post a simple drawing of the installation I imagine. Which can be described as:
-rectangular prism shaped freezer[1] (Duh!!)[/1] , with in front a medium sized cavity (the back of the cavity being some re-made freezer walls). In this cavity we would install the metallic drive bays of a used [1] (or new???)[/1] PC case [2] (AT or ATX, doesn't matter) [/2] . The power supply doesn't need to be close at all, so we would place..hum...I dunno...behind [4] The Fridge[/4] ?

Oh! I was thinking about condensation [2] (do I look obsessed about this phenomenon?)[/2] Und, with all this air movement [2] (you know the big fan)[/2] , the slightliest [1] (gush, this one was hard to spell, for me, Frenchie)[/1] amount of frost that would dare accumulate on the board, should we open the door, will quickly re-evaporate and run to the (hypothetical) coldsink, or simply the freezer's wall.

That's all, fiew...!
 

dimmreaper

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Dec 16, 2000
Location
home
Condensation will never be a problem so long as you keept the freezer shut.

Air that cold is naturally very dry as the water freezes out of it. All the electrical componentes will be warmer than the air, so no condensation.

The only time you may get condensation is if you ope and close the firdge a lot. When you open the fridge, warm moist air will be able to contact the ice cold compnents, resulting in condensation. So just keep the fridge buttoned up tight.

I'd put the harddrive in the fridge too, It shouldn't hurt it.

Run the ribbon cables through the door seals and put the CD-ROM and and floppy drive out-side of the fridge.

Drill holes through the walls and run cables (VGA, audio, CAT5 . . . ) throught them. Make the holes the same diameter as the cables. Once you run the cables through, solder hoods on each end (these would be like extension cable).

To "overclock" the fridge/freezer, all you need to do is bypass the thermostat. Basically "hot wire" the compressor pump.

Why do I know how to properly do this? I had an old K6-2 system in the freezer fo a while, (but I didn't drill any holes through the walls). It was fun, but then I needed to put food in the freezer later, so I took the puter out.
 

MsNath

Member
Joined
Feb 4, 2001
Ammethyl tu parlez anglais très bien Je n'aurais jamais deviné que le Français était votre première langue. Je suis Français d' étude juste, ainsi vous devrez excuser mes erreurs. :)

**************
Oh! I was thinking about condensation [2] (do I look obsessed about this phenomenon?)[/2] Und, with all this air movement [2] (you know the big fan)[/2] , the slightliest [1] (gush, this one was hard to spell, for me, Frenchie)[/1] amount of frost that would dare accumulate on the board, should we open the door, will quickly re-evaporate and run to the (hypothetical) coldsink, or simply the freezer's wall.

*****************
As mentioned before by others condensation is only an issue if you have to keep opening and closing the door. If you can mount your CDs and Floppies outside of your freezer then this will reduce the amount of opening and closing.

As well the fewer heat generating items you have in the fridge the over all colder it will get and colder is better so look at trying to get the HD and of course power supply out side of the fridge.

I thought the comment by Jeff about OC the freezer was very interesting :)

Im currently searching the used adds for an old fridge. :)
 

Metaxas

Senior Member
Joined
Dec 25, 2000
DO NOT put your HDD in the fridge... The machine oil that is used to lube the parts will gel at lower temps, and you run the risk drive failure. Least that's what i've been told by some other people that tried that.....
 

dimmreaper

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Metaxas (Mar 02, 2001 10:59 p.m.):
DO NOT put your HDD in the fridge... The machine oil that is used to lube the parts will gel at lower temps, and you run the risk drive failure. Least that's what i've been told by some other people that tried that.....
I had mine in the fridge for over 2 weeks with no problem (the system was running 24/7). However this was only a 5400RPM drive. Faster drives may suffer from this, although I don't suspect the oil to "gel" until it gets as cold as -35F as this is the approximate temperature that diesel fuel "gels" at. 10 weight oil is what is used to lube the drive's bearings, it is very lite (like mineral oil) so I imagine it needs to get very cold to "gel".
 

dimmreaper

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MsNath (Mar 02, 2001 08:15 p.m.):
Ammethyl tu parlez anglais très bien Je n'aurais jamais deviné que le Français était votre première langue. Je suis Français d' étude juste, ainsi vous devrez excuser mes erreurs. :)
Your asking Ammethyl if he speaks french aren't you? That's how little french I picked up in high-school :D I could share some German cuss words though (my grandparents speak fluent German).
 

surlyjoe

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Location
far west
now if you took the evaporator ,and layed it flat then, sat the mobo on it ,and covere it in urethane ,then sat a strofoam 6-pack cooler with the bottom cut out on it , and glued it down with marine goop ,then filled it with deionized water ,then let it freeze into a big block of ice ,and ,and ,,whew ,,I can see I'm gonna have to start burning up k-6's again :)
 

Newbie_Doo

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Location
Stafford, Virginia USA
surlyjoe (Mar 03, 2001 12:25 a.m.):
now if you took the evaporator ,and layed it flat then, sat the mobo on it ,and covere it in urethane ,then sat a strofoam 6-pack cooler with the bottom cut out on it , and glued it down with marine goop ,then filled it with deionized water ,then let it freeze into a big block of ice ,and ,and ,,whew ,,I can see I'm gonna have to start burning up k-6's again :)

GW-Make sure you leave enough room for a couple of beers in there!
 
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Ammethyl

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Funny he?

surlyjoe (Mar 03, 2001 12:25 a.m.):
now if you took the evaporator ,and layed it flat then, sat the mobo on it ,and covere it in urethane ,then sat a strofoam 6-pack cooler with the bottom cut out on it , and glued it down with marine goop ,then filled it with deionized water ,then let it freeze into a big block of ice ,and ,and ,,whew ,,I can see I'm gonna have to start burning up k-6's again :)

You might think your funny, be let me tell you son that I completely dis...[4] Berrrrrp ![/4] [1] (I love to be able to scream noiselessly like this!)[/1]

No, what I meant is, You may think your funny, but in fact, you just gave me two good ideas:

1. I (i.e. We) can try, before doing anythin stoopid, to mess around with old pieces of junk (like the k6 (just joking, for the k6)).

[1] (By the way, does anyone ever listened to Add N to (x) - Fyuz, with head phones, gush it can be good)[/1]

[3] 2. [/3] Try almost exactly what you just suggested, but with mineral oil, or blablabla, witch would then become: Submersed Supercooling [1] I knew it was a good idea to submit this project to others criticism :)[/1]
This would, all in all, mean less bulky, more accessible, simpler, more efficient, less dangerous. [1] Do I forget something? To good to be true[/1] Ya a genius man!

[2] And since I'll be using the MSI Turbo, I'm just starting to love the idea of putting my hands in this -20c minéral oil... to change this stupid over/under 120Mhz jumpy[/2]

Should I add that we can make the pumping of the heat less difficult for the compressor by actually cooling the radiator...! Thus making it more power full (but I think, sadly, not bring the cold side at a lower temp (I think it has to do without the ebullition temp of the freon))
 

dimmreaper

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Don't use mineral oil.

Use transformer oil, It's really designed for this type of thing, and I think it's cheaper.
 
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Ammethyl

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Feb 27, 2001
Jeff Evans (Mar 03, 2001 12:18 p.m.):
Don't use mineral oil.

Use transformer oil, It's really designed for this type of thing, and I think it's cheaper.

Don't worry, I wasn't going to put mineral oil without knowing before. I was actualy planning to wheedle some spec from MSI about solvant tolerance of their boards. The transformer oil seems a great option ( as long as my computer doesn't catch on fire, you know PCB (doxines ...) :) ). Thanks Jeff.

But if the board stands in a liquid, then I will forget about air cooling (duh!), but I wonder if I should us any heatsink at all (on CPU), and add any pump or "fan" to get the transformer oil movin'...

A device ressembling a small boat propeller, with it's flow aiming toward the CPU...
 
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Ammethyl

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Feb 27, 2001
By the way, Mr. Evan, if you can add anything about the fridge's "overclocking", I see what you mean by "hotwiring". But In fact, maybe I would want the compressor to stop sometimes, since once it will have reached the bottom temperature, it would work for nothing and maybe fry. Do you think it would be possible to only modify the thermostat (anyway in the case of a real freezer, I wouldn't need to dio anything at all, it will go right to -18C and then stop...)
 

dimmreaper

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I'd put a heatsink (passive) on the CPU. Got an old Alpha PEP66 kicking around, It would be Ideal?
 
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Ammethyl

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Feb 27, 2001
Hobby shop

I finally opted to force the oil toward the CPU's heat sink with a model boat [1] (scale model--sorry I'm french spoken)[/1] propeler. With a shaft, that would pass through the insolation (which would probably be foam...), powered by a small model-car engine. (many K RPMs, that oil's gonna be so stirred, it will turn into mayonnaise :) )
 

MsNath

Member
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Feb 4, 2001
Submersing in transformer oil? Holy way out there guys. This is too wild! Well I would really like to know if this works. I am eagerly awaiting the results of this experiment.

I do suspect that no matter who you contact in regards to whether this all will work will give you the same answer, “We never thought about it, we never tried it and we can’t even hypothesis about the possible outcome, don’t do it!” Translation start with an old board that you know works. Like a throw away 486. See if you can get it to post and then boot. Let it run for a day or two submersed. Don’t bother OCing it just see if it will run.

Best of luck and keep us updated.