The NRZ N2 Waterblock Beta Thread

[trents]

That was my initial plan was to use power resistors to setup a constant load. This was changed once I realized that I could target specific wattage points in a real world situation. My data is significantly more relevant being in situ than based purely a heat parameter. Mounting, CPU geometries, heat soak (thanks earthdog)... All of these things plus more are giving me numbers that I can desicively say can be replicated in a retail product.

And Blaylock, I am only running hwinfo64 for temps, and I have disabled hardware monitoring in aquasuite in an attempt to partially mitigate the problem. Turning off the aquasuite service and closing the software gets be back to an idle of 30-31C. I am assuming that removing the restrictive fitting would get me back to 28-29C. I have contacted Aqua Computer and asked if there is a way to reduce the amount of resources drawn by their software, and I hope to get an answer from them sooner rather than later.

I need to find a way to pick up some competing AM4 blocks without spending a lot. Used would be best. Also, once the stuff for a very well known company is done cutting this week, I will have machine time. Finally. I could get all the data in the world, but I am only testing one setup. Even though I am giving my best effort to collect data points objectively, there are still too many variables that are intrinsically linked to my specific set of hardware. Really looking forward to getting some more eyes and hands on a beta N2.

And whenever you make changes to he system you are adding to that variable list. I could be wrong but I think your are setting yourself up to generate a lot of irrelevant detailed data that most custom loop builders either won't be able to understand or won't care about. They just want the bottom line: "Does thenrz' block give lower temp than block x,y,z already on the market?" And it is unlikely that anyone else will have the same loop as you with regard to the various components it contains anyway. So it might be a good idea to enlarge your beta testing pool to include more individuals who are willing to swap out their water block with yours so that you can get delta results from a variety of system combinations.

All you need are deltas so "dance with who you brung." And I guess I don't understand your focus on generating 200 watts of heat from the stress testing. Isn't that an arbitrary number? Why wouldn't 145 watts do?

If you acquire some used blocks produced by various manufacturers, make sure you clean them thoroughly to remove the gunk buildup internally.

 

[Blaylock]

Slight change of subject here.

THENRZ, where did you get your flow meter? I'm trying to order the Barrowich one Earthdoggy posted but it's out of stock everywhere.

 

[thenrz]

Respectfuly, so what . It is idle and largely not relevant. CPU temperature sensors are known to be less accurate here and more accurate at load in the first place. Also, a 200W from your stress test app is a 200W load. Idle doesn't come into play there. I'd use the delta and eliminate idle, personally. Seriously... it's nothing to get hung up about. Just use a delta... problem solved... and is a more accurate way of displaying that information in the first place (everyone's temps will be different, but deltas will not change!!!!!).

It's a loss of efficiency, even if minor. An abrupt change in the norm of a system, however "minutiatic" as idle temps, is a reason to understand why the system is different. It doesn't matter when comparing everything to a delta over ambient, and you're spot on there. I can't test for real numbers right now, so taking the hammer to this problem is about all I can do, isn't it?

You should do the math and see how little difference it makes $$ wise. At 10c /KW hr... the difference is change you'll find in the couch over a month.

Ohio's average kwh is $0.1198. Testing 200W + 150W for all the peripherals, inefficiencies in the PSU, and the GPU at basically idle is $0.042/hour. Testing at 30 hours/week including some overnight PL2 tests at 145W would be $1.26/week. So let me just go ahead and make your point for you, ok?

Very few will cool the VRMs... why not 'run as you brung'? I understand the need to isolate as best you can, but very few will be doing so and heat sink is a factor... why not test the block in its most likely environment? You'll never eliminate the effect of heat soak (even with block on them)... I wouldn't bother as every chassis and situation will be different. If you really want to isolate the block with nothing else, use a heat plate.

Longevity of my own system is my main concern here. Alleviating this even just 15-20% would greatly reduce heat related stress over time. It really has nothing to do with the data, just protecting my own investment is all. At this stage of the game, I'm not playing with company money, I'm playing with my own.

Again.. that isn't a problem. Idle isn't terribly relevant! A 200W load is a 200W load regardless of the monitoring software running or not. As you can see from your results, you had a 200W load again...

You're absolutely correct as I have conceded previously. This is a current subset of my own neuroses. I can't get any real numbers until later in the week, so for now I'm left with diving down this rabbit hole.

So, my best advice is to stop thinking about these values you gathered before your test rig is completely built. I get refining the process, but your head feels like it is stuck in the minutia and missing the bigger picture of it all. A warmer idle doesn't change the delta.

Again, point conceded. Can't argue that the system has changed and that there is a reason, though. There's no reason to use the time where I can't be using a CNC to cut my beta parts for my testers to at least try and return the system back to a previous baseline level. If it doesn't work then oh well. I have even worked ahead to a 300W design named N3. There's also distribution blocks, custom reservoirs, SSD blocks, and a kind of acrylic tubing system that utilizes ATX mounting points that I have been working on as well. Can't do much of anything until I get some machine time again.

Slight change of subject here.

THENRZ, where did you get your flow meter? I'm trying to order the Barrowich one Earthdoggy posted but it's out of stock everywhere.

Blaylock, I ordered the aqua computer one since i bought an aquaero. Other than gripes about the cord being really short (which it is...), it's really high quality.

 

[EarthDog]

I can't test for real numbers right now, so taking the hammer to this problem is about all I can do, isn't it?

I'd hammer out methodologies, then get into crunching data when the system is setup.

Ohio's average kwh is $0.1198. Testing 200W + 150W for all the peripherals, inefficiencies in the PSU, and the GPU at basically idle is $0.042/hour. Testing at 30 hours/week including some overnight PL2 tests at 145W would be $1.26/week. So let me just go ahead and make your point for you, ok?

LOL sure!

150W for peripherals is ~10x more than it really is. If your CPU is using 200W, the rest of the system is likely around ~25W or so (not including an idle GPU at 10-20W). That system isn't using close to 350W when testing (maybe buy a killawatt). I'd be surprised if you saw 250W actual use (~280W at the wall assuming 90% efficiency of the PSU). I'd also assume the system is on/in use during normal times, so it doesn't start at zero, technically, but above and beyond normal use.

Longevity of my own system is my main concern here. Alleviating this even just 15-20% would greatly reduce heat-related stress over time. It really has nothing to do with the data, just protecting my own investment is all. At this stage of the game, I'm not playing with company money, I'm playing with my own.

Again, the VRM's are happy at that temperature. Lower is always better, but these parts are intended to run this hot and hotter. Your choice, to do it of course, but just trying to put into perspective the ends versus the means... If this was really a problem, all/most of the VRMs would be water cooled, eh?

Anyway, I totally get it. But we're trying to save you some time and effort by trying to help keep the focus on the important parts. I'd forget any numbers now and start down this path as soon as your system is built. THAT is your baseline... nothing here is. I'll jump back in when there is real data...this is too in the weeds for me now.

 

[trents]

I'd hammer out methodologies, then get into crunching data when the system is setup.

LOL sure!

150W for peripherals is ~10x more than it really is. If your CPU is using 200W, the rest of the system is likely around ~25W or so (not including an idle GPU at 10-20W). That system isn't using close to 350W when testing (maybe buy a killawatt). I'd be surprised if you saw 250W actual use (~280W at the wall assuming 90% efficiency of the PSU). I'd also assume the system is on/in use during normal times, so it doesn't start at zero, technically, but above and beyond normal use.

Again, the VRM's are happy at that temperature. Lower is always better, but these parts are intended to run this hot and hotter. Your choice, to do it of course, but just trying to put into perspective the ends versus the means... If this was really a problem, all/most of the VRMs would be water cooled, eh?

Anyway, I totally get it. But we're trying to save you some time and effort by trying to help keep the focus on the important parts. I'd forget any numbers now and start down this path as soon as your system is built. THAT is your baseline... nothing here is. I'll jump back in when there is real data...this is too in the weeds for me now. :)

thenrz, I think we're all getting burned out trying to track with all the tedium and hardware changes. My advice is the same as ED's. Get your system components settled in, decide on a testing methodology and start tracking temp and wattage differentials.

And I think your idea to pick up a couple of popular water blocks already on the market is an excellent one. That will enable you to do your own alpha testing. then when you send samples to others, they will be the beta testers.

 

[thenrz]

I'd hammer out methodologies, then get into crunching data when the system is setup.

LOL sure!

150W for peripherals is ~10x more than it really is. If your CPU is using 200W, the rest of the system is likely around ~25W or so (not including an idle GPU at 10-20W). That system isn't using close to 350W when testing (maybe buy a killawatt). I'd be surprised if you saw 250W actual use (~280W at the wall assuming 90% efficiency of the PSU). I'd also assume the system is on/in use during normal times, so it doesn't start at zero, technically, but above and beyond normal use.

Again, the VRM's are happy at that temperature. Lower is always better, but these parts are intended to run this hot and hotter. Your choice, to do it of course, but just trying to put into perspective the ends versus the means... If this was really a problem, all/most of the VRMs would be water cooled, eh?

Anyway, I totally get it. But we're trying to save you some time and effort by trying to help keep the focus on the important parts. I'd forget any numbers now and start down this path as soon as your system is built. THAT is your baseline... nothing here is. I'll jump back in when there is real data...this is too in the weeds for me now.

I guess I was simply asking the people here what they thought about the differences. It was purely "professional" curiosity. Understanding my specific system is something I'd want to do regardless of testing or not. Perhaps my intrigue into the "minutia" of a physical system isn't something that anyone else here shares. I'll drop it and just stick to numbers and figure out the rest myself.


My power figures, 200W test:

CPU - 200W
GPU @ lower power - 20W
Fans - All @ 12V, all maxed out: .4A + .4A + .4A + .35A + .35A +.35A + .3A +.3A +.3A = 3.15A*12V = 37.8W
Fan LEDs - All @ 5V: .12A + .12A + .12A + .08A + .08A + .08A + .065A + .065A + .065A = 0.795A*5V = 3.795W
RAM - (low ballpark, will be higher considering it is maxed out in the IBT): 5W, taken from online resources for DDR4-2133
SSD - 2W
Pump - full speed - 32W
HDDs - 1.5W (standby)
USB peripherals (wired RGB keyboard, aquaero, logitech receiver, wireless headphones key, usb external drive) - 3.5W

Assuming 90% efficiency - 336.1545W without MB components such as NB etc.

My numbers weren't arbitrary and were based on real world figures.


I will post numbers when the time comes. Perhaps peripheral data will simply prove what I already have, but perhaps not. Who knows. What I do know is that preliminary data reveals that I was able to engineer something that works within a desired performance envelope. I'll just stick to what I'm good at and continue to engineer and try to build a business, as it seems like my general interests in the hobby don't mesh here.

200W is a higher end number, trents, and this is the reason I am basing numbers around this power level. Proof of functionality at something like 145W doesn't really contain anything close to the high end; this is especially important with the new Intel silicon coming out that will break 250W routinely. If I don't aim for the high end, then there's really no point in wasting time with another middle of the road product.

Will be back in some number of days with some updates. Have a good week everyone.

 

[EarthDog]

My numbers weren't arbitrary and were based on real world figures

...get a kill a watt.



Note the minutia I'm talking about, many have been through this. Were sharing our experience and results with you. Learn your system... but do so based on facts and data, not because something 'one feels it's too hot' for example. Facts > feelings. Your general interests in the hobby mesh here. We're, again, sharing what we know with you so you can focus your efforts on data relevant to the end game.

Anyway, I cant wait to see some actual results! Thank you!

 

[Blaylock]

I decided to give this one a try.

https://freezemod.com/product/freez...peed-temperature-detection-flow-meter-lsj-zn/

 

[thenrz]

I decided to give this one a try.

https://freezemod.com/product/freez...peed-temperature-detection-flow-meter-lsj-zn/

Nice! I looked at something similar. I wanted the ability to pipe the data into a logger so I needed something different. You'll have to let me know how it works, as I'll need something for my secondary system. The fact that it measures temps too is really fantastic. I have a used motherboard coming for my i7700k along with a couple of sticks of DDR4-3200. That will be testbed #2. It will be a lot less involved, but it will allow for some additional testing environments.

 

[Zerileous]

I decided to give this one a try.

https://freezemod.com/product/freez...peed-temperature-detection-flow-meter-lsj-zn/

Please let us know how it works. I tried the Barrow one and I could not get it to work. I don't think the impeller was turning.

 

[Blaylock]

Ok. Will do. I wanted a temp sensor that didn't require the motherboard connector. My ASUS B450i is the only board I have with a temp input connector.

 

[thenrz]

I went ahead and sprung for the aqua computer one, even at a premium, because in the tests I saw it performed in the class of scientific instrumentation... That and I'm in that ecosystem now

 

[Blaylock]

I'll sterilize one of my probes to my Amprobe TMD-52 and place it in my reservoir. Should be able to see how accurate the Freezemod is. In reality, water temp isn't as critical as component temp, so for my normal uses it should serve well, assuming it's somewhat accurate of course.

Oh, for those who didn't look up Freezemod, they look like a subsidiary of Byski, a semi-well known China based company. This will be my first product from them so it will be interesting to see the quality.

 

[thenrz]

Well, the inline temp probes show delivered which is great, but the flow meter was sent to the wrong Amazon distribution center. That's twice in two weeks with two different carriers that I have had that happen. The customer service guy put a "rush" on it for me, but I doubt that will do any good. Probably arrives Thursday, but one can hope for tomorrow. I don't feel like taking the loop apart twice, so I guess I'll be waiting.

I ran my Microcenter yesterday to grab some odds and ends, and they had a whole bunch of Bitspower hard tube fittings for $1.98 a piece in the clearance "pile" which were normally $8.99. On clearance they were way less than Amazon. They also had 5/8"OD petg, 4x1000mm pack for $18.99. So being unable to pass up a solid deal, I grabbed 8 fittings and a pack of tubing to put away for a later date. Spending just over $30 for all of that was a fantastic deal.


Edit: Had a really long 11 hour day at work... The good things is, once the two rather large blocks of aluminum billet are finished next Monday/Tuesday, I will have some machine time for about a week. There are plenty of smaller jobs to take care of, and I have been programming them non-stop the last few days, but they're small enough that I can throw a vice or two up and have the space I need.

Nearly decided to add in the inline probes, but it looks like the flow meter comes tomorrow. Even though with my fill and drain ports with the ball valves make it super easy to work on the loop, I didn't feel like getting into it simply because it's not something I could leave half done. Also, the 7" touchscreen is on its way. Going to mount it on the 5.25" frame. Will fit my aquasuite custom data layout perfectly. Will really look cool, too, and be able to give me all the information from all the sensors and a lot of hwinfo data without having to look away from the tower. Completely unnecessary, but it is something I have always wanted to do...

Below is my very much still a work in progress data layout page. I am still working on writing the xaml code to drive some conditional things, and that will, in the end, define the general layout of everything else. Colors will change based on temperature, and certain actions will commence at specific temps as well. One big thing is an increase in logging resolution which will trigger at 50C or thereabouts. It will also dump out current processes that are utilizing a lot of core time when that happens. It changes in testing mode where a different set of actions will take place. Aqua Computer/aquasuite is really cool... had no idea it had this much functionality just in software.

Anyway, have a good night everyone.

View attachment 209570

 

[thenrz]

Hey guys, so I am working on grabbing up some used waterblocks for testing. I would like to keep things here as much as I can... perhaps do a "rental" situation where I pay for shipping both ways and throw someone a few bucks for letting me use a block or two, as I simply don't need to outright purchase them. Anyway, how many posts until I can access the classifieds here?

 

[EarthDog]

You can't access it already?

 

[thenrz]

There aren't any threads showing up and I cannot create a new one, so I am assuming that means I do not have access.

 

[trents]

There is not much activity on our forum's classified section. Being as how you're not buying or selling, it might be appropriate to post this request as you have already done but with more details, even in the general cooling section and then work out the details with any takers through PM.

 

[thenrz]

That's a good idea, trents. I will get a new thread together. Will probably stick to the water cooling section, as I would imagine most would either go straight to that subforum or quickly click through. Thanks!

 

[EarthDog]

There is not much activity on our forum's classified section. Being as how you're not buying or selling, it might be appropriate to post this request as you have already done but with more details, even in the general cooling section and then work out the details with any takers through PM.

... no.

That's a good idea, trents. I will get a new thread together. Will probably stick to the water cooling section, as I would imagine most would either go straight to that subforum or quickly click through. Thanks!

Sorry thenrz. The rules of the forum specifically state there is no selling/buying outside of the classifieds section. We have a Wanted thread there specifically for this.

I believe the requirement is either 50 or 100 quality posts (as in, no useless posts just to get there).

Now, if someone wants to reach out after seeing this exchange... I can't stop that... but you are on your own for that.