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The NRZ N2 Waterblock Beta Thread

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trents

Senior Member
Joined
Dec 27, 2008
Yes, shipping and mail is a little unpredictable right now. Had a couple of frustrations with that myself lately. There is this double whammy of more online business and more things to be shipped but fewer employees to make it all happen. These systems are strained right now.
 
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thenrz

Member
Joined
Feb 26, 2020
Location
Northeast Ohio
Yes, shipping and mail is a little unpredictable right now. Had a couple of frustrations with that myself lately. There is this double whammy of more online business and more things to be shipped but fewer employees to make it all happen. These systems are strained right now.

I agree completely. I asked numerous times just to tell me when the package would arrive. Mentioned every single time that I understand the situation, and I just need to know where it is and how long it will be. Don't tell me "tomorrow" on Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, and today... seriously, that wasn't an okay thing to do. Also, don't lie to me about refunds and cancelled deliveries. That's where my issue is. Oh well, performance PCs is going to have the flow sensor here on Sunday and it only cost $4.70 more than Amazon and that was with the rush chipping option for $2.99 or whatever since it's Friday and I was hoping it would be out before the weekend... and it was. Fantastic service, and I will order from there more often.

Only a week behind the nearly month behind revised schedule now. Not bad all things considered... haha! I'm about to be 3D printing some mounts for the flow sensor and the case LCD screen now. Getting the printer dialed back in to my tight tolerances now.
 
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thenrz

Member
Joined
Feb 26, 2020
Location
Northeast Ohio
The flow meter comes tomorrow. Performance PCs shipped it Friday afternoon, and it only cost me $5.50 more than Amazon. The $5.50 includes the rush shipping up charge which ended up being worth it considering it shipped before the weekend. So, finally, I will be able to take the loop apart and put in the inline temp sensors and the flow meter tomorrow. Sheesh...

I was working around the house a bunch today, but this evening I drew up the mount for the small LCD screen I am mounting in the case. It is currently printing on the 3D printer. The Ender Pro 3 is worth every penny in case anyone is looking for a low cost machine. I don't need perfection for my average use case, but this thing has always surprised me since I bought it. I have upgraded parts I bought for the extruder and the x and y axes, but I haven't put them in yet... even after like 4 months. I've added it to the massive to do list I currently have.

Anyway, tomorrow night will hopefully be baseline runs, and I will get my first datasets that actually matter. I will need to print a mount for the flow meter, but it shouldn't take nearly as long as the one I am working on now. I have a really clever place to put it.

I'm working on getting some more blocks, but I'm also going to be able to get my beta blocks out to testers late this coming week into the week after. So either way I will be generating some real performance numbers. There are a couple of eBay potentials, as well as a block for my good ol' GTX 1070 that I'm eyeballing. Tomorrow night I will probably be changing out the reservoir for my 5.25" dual bay/dual loop reservoir, and I want to put in a second loop just because that will cool the GPU. I need to get something plumbed in because my drawing for a full cover block is done, and I'm trying to look ahead here. If I'm going to get funding, I need to have an array of products in different categories.

Anyway guys, hope everyone is staying safe and healthy, and have a good rest of your weekends.


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thenrz

Member
Joined
Feb 26, 2020
Location
Northeast Ohio
Screen mount is done and works perfectly, and already this morning the flow meter arrived. Shout out to performance PCs on that. A few bucks more than Amazon including the rush option and it's here on a Sunday. Amazing.

Have the inline temp probes installed, and working on mounting the flow meter. It's going to go pump->N2->meter. I figure getting a flow metric close to the block makes the most sense. Real quick, any input on before or after the block? I am almost thinking before now, as it would tell me exactly how much volume is being fed to the block rather than how much after. Hmm.

Anyway, some photos attached. Will update this post throughout the day.

Edit: they're too big file size wise to attach. I'll make them smaller and put them up shortly.

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EDIT: Here's the complete testing setup.

Temp probes are in. No issues there at all. The flow meter was installed in a much less elegant fashion that I could have hoped, but I wanted to avoid 90s around both sides. Was going to stash it in the 5.25" bay, but this way provided no restriction, but it certainly does not look the greatest. The info screen looks really good. I want to print a frame for it, but for now it's fulfilling its purpose very well. The plethora of information that is visible at all times without having to look away from the case is going to be incredible convenient.

I wish I had the motivation to take pretty much everything out of the case and start over to organize things more efficiently, but as it stands, I am able to start running real tests with every possible bit of information available. That will happen here in a couple of hours, and I will be certain to post things as they go. I want to shut the system down for a bit to shake off heat back to a true startup idle to record those numbers... not that those data are very important, but I am trying to gather data on all aspects of the system for when I start switching out blocks. Eventually I want to buy a case with more room inside to set up a second loop for testing GFX blocks at the same time. I almost had a nice EK block for my 1070, but my phone pooped out when trying to bid again at the last second and I lost it. Was a hell of a deal and I'm pretty bummed about it. Did get a brand new nexxxos xt45 rad for $60 shipped. They guy didn't title it very well, so not many people saw it. Someone tried to get me at the end, but my phone behaved that time. I'm always ready for the last second bidders when my phone cooperaties.

All of the data is piped from HWinfo and all of the hardware sensing in aquasuite is disabled as to not clash with hwinfo. Logging will be done on all the sensors including my custom virtual and software ones. At this point, I have a spreadsheet for 105W, 140W, and 200W. I should be able to target all of those specifically since I installed more RAM. I was hovering more around 197-198W with trying to max out 16GB, so 32GB should allow a more precise test. Tests will be 15m, 30m, 45m, and 60m. I am going to trust you guys that the VRM temps won't come in to play even at 100C. It's interesting that the CPU block is adding 1.4C of temp to the liquid and the rad is taking away 1.2C. The rest of the energy is being bled through the fittings and very slightly through the tubing. I am working on having a gauge that shows average delta, but it's the one thing that I cannot seem to make aquesuite do... Taking the average of a software sensor that is already a virtual sensor seems to be beyond the scope of the software.

Anyway, here are the photos. The light wash from the LEDs makes things a but fuzzy, but the screen is 1024x600px @ 7in diagonal. It's an IPS display and really sharp. I've tried every which way to get them to be the right orientation on here, but it just keeps messing with me. I have been extracting a lot of files the last half hour while finishing some things up, so that's the reason for the elevated temperatures in general. Still not bad for unpacking 2 and 3 GB compressed folders.

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EarthDog

Gulper Nozzle Co-Owner
Joined
Dec 15, 2008
Location
Buckeyes!
As far as flow meter placement.. irrelevant. It's a closed loop...it shouldn't be any faster or slower in the tubes. Similar to how temperatures work/similar at any point in the loop.
 

Zerileous

Senior Member
Joined
Jun 21, 2002
Liquid water is an non compressible fluid, as ED said it doesn't matter where you place the flow meter.

Very cool screen there. Did your printer do that all at once, or is it multiple smaller pieces?
 
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thenrz

Member
Joined
Feb 26, 2020
Location
Northeast Ohio
Of course, flow is like power. Since I'm measuring through a defined diameter, it's going to be the same. I was asking for data dissemination purposes. Does it "look different" on paper is all. Should have specified. As for temps, those aren't homogenous. Uncovering the deltas around the block and radiator has been really interesting. Short of running the official tests, the block's ability to dump heat is there and it's just cool to see. It's also cool to watch the loop change dynamics as the amount of heat rises. The radiator becomes a bit more efficient, which is pretty obvious, and the block stays about the same. The radiator has ambient to play with whereas the block is slaved to the loop temp which rises during a hard test.

The mount was printed all at once. The only tricky part was getting the dimensions without my good measurement tools which are at work. I was pretty much spot on which was fantastic. I ran it a little fast for time's sake... Since it's hidden the finish wasn't important. With the new extruder I have, I should be able to run as fast as I was with a fantastic finish.

Ran a couple of baseline tests to get all my logging and data dumping where it needs to be. Would be nice if aquasuite could dump CSV, but XML is fine there's just an extra step or two. Comparatively, the addition of the sensors didn't change anything. Basically identical deltas. Same 72-73C stable temps at 200W.

Hope everyone had a good weekend. I'll try to get some hard numbers flowing this evening.
 

Sam__

Member
Joined
Mar 12, 2007
Location
UK
Just wanted to jump in and say this is an amazing thread to read. Watching your journey so far has been awesome. When this is successful and you come out with an intel mount, put me top of the order list!
 
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thenrz

Member
Joined
Feb 26, 2020
Location
Northeast Ohio
Just wanted to jump in and say this is an amazing thread to read. Watching your journey so far has been awesome. When this is successful and you come out with an intel mount, put me top of the order list!

Thanks for the kind words! It's been a long road, but worth it in a lot of ways. My big issue right now is lack of access to the machines to continue producing, but that will come here soon. The Intel mount (LGA 115X) is done actually, and I have one cut and tested, but again, I can't make more blocks until this rush at work dies down. All of my machine are packed full of giant aluminum billet...

Once I get to producing again, there will be a website where one can go to reserve an early production unit. As mentioned previously, the first ones will be at cost, but I will ask for a little review from you. This is all after the full betas go out of course... so it's still a good month or two away.

Still looking forward to getting an N3 block prototype cut. I think you guys will like it.
 
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thenrz

Member
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Feb 26, 2020
Location
Northeast Ohio
Good morning everyone. The first batch of data has been collected. Once I am able to format the cell data the way I want from the XML output, I will post what I have. So far, everything is essentially as it was before with the addition of a ton of measurement data. There are some really interesting correlations that I am sure there are those here who would be really interested in plotting and seeing for themselves. I won't be returning home until probably after 6, as I ran into a bad accident this morning on my way to work and ended up almost 40 minutes late. Working a 10+ anyway, so an additional 40 minutes is annoying.
 

BugFreak

Joined
Apr 29, 2010
Location
Central FL
Thanks for all the effort. It's been fun watching this unfold and reminds me of the old Little river "whitewater" block in creation years ago.
 
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thenrz

Member
Joined
Feb 26, 2020
Location
Northeast Ohio
Thanks for all the effort. It's been fun watching this unfold and reminds me of the old Little river "whitewater" block in creation years ago.

I really wish I could have manufactured more physical blocks by now. I'm well over a month behind at this point... During this time I have engineered another CPU block, a GPU block, distro plates, reservoirs, "plate tubing" of my own design, and recently have put together an aluminum+acrylic case. I'm really excited about the case, but it's not going to be cheap to produce or sell at all. 1/4" aluminum plate, 3/4"+1/2" acrylic, and some aluminum extrusion.

The CPU blocks require the smallest amount of raw material, so those will come first - at least as a public product design. This N2 block and the upcoming N3 block will be my CPU line. GPU blocks are a much larger investment of capital due to the different boards out there. One can design for reference, but that immediately ostracizes a chunk of possible customers. The initial cost is higher, too, due to the large amount of copper required. The distro plates seem to be getting popular, and I have some pretty cool ideas for those. I could come in under a lot of the sky high prices, too. My material cost for my favorite design so far is ~$21. The machine time isn't much since acrylic cuts like butter with the right cutters and ample RPMs. It's really just recesses in one half, and the second half might have a feature or two, but mostly it just seals in the first half. Chamfer the back side, drill & tap, and that's it. What I wouldn't give to be able to buy up a couple of second hand VMCs with a small shop. With the economy right now, I could get two really nice second hand machines or one new one with plenty of cutting envelope for this industry for $25,000. I would be able to get so many products out and designed, and build from there. A dream I hope to make a reality within 18 months.
 
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thenrz

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Feb 26, 2020
Location
Northeast Ohio
Well guys, some things were delivered today for the GPU loop. The system was built as things arrived, and there's just a lot about it that's disorganized and it's really bothering me. Over the next couple of days, I am going to tear the whole thing apart and build anew. There are 90s where there doesn't need to be 90s, the aquaero is kind of just floating around in the 5.25" bay, and the sheer volume of wires with all the sensors and three different fan/led controllers... I don't like the flow meter being suspended, either. I have a cool mount drawn up to 3D print, but where it needs to go sits wires and various nonsense that shouldn't be there. I'm going to print some wire clips and other organizational odds and ends. Really... I need a bigger case... but I don't really feel like spending $200-$250 for something that has the feature set I want when what I have works just fine for now. Maybe if I come across something locally second hand I'll jump on it. The current case was new in box and I got it for $60 or $70, I forget at this point. Hopefully something else like that will turn up.

I'm not the biggest fan of messing with my testing loop, but there's not much to it, and it will definitely be worth it in the end. The plan is, once I get a GPU block machined, I will add a second flow meter, nab two of the inline liquid probes from the CPU loop that are around the radiator, and then have two complete and isolated testing loops in one case. Once complete, it will be a somewhat silly looking case filled with an absolute ton of stuff. Trying to shoehorn a second loop in there as is would be just asking for issues, when having a blank slate from which to start is a lot more labor intensive, but very beneficial in the long run. Plan on printing some sort of PSU area shroud as well, but it's going to take days to print it all considering how much surface area in panels are required. Good thing I am installing an automatic bed leveler for my 3D printer... the new control board and LCD screen come early next week, so my ability to flash firmwares from SD or modify a lot more of the parameters on-device will go way up. I will trust the thing to print a bed full of parts all day and night once that happens. Thermal runaway control is iffy from what I've heard on the OEM boards, and that's worrisome even if there haven't been any reported incidents.

OK, ramble over. The final block of giant billet month 2020 is done tomorrow at work. Here's hoping I'll be allowed to come in Saturday and go at it for a good 4-6 hours or more even. Blaylock's block will be first, and I just need the updated coldplate and bottom frame. The beta hardware and packaging kits are essentially complete, and the little shipping boxes along with some good foam I've been saving up should make the thing look quite legit. Really reaaaallllyyy looking forward to someone else getting a chance to use a shiny new N2 block!



EDIT: Hey!!!! Guys, I need some help here. Does anyone have a Touchaqua S1 pump? It's the one that's attached to the XYZ reservoir/pump system. I bought one used from PPCS down in Florida (ordered from them for years, super highly recommended) and it didn't come with the cable. I got a fantastic deal on it, but Bitspower doesn't seem to understand my question about the pinout or how much to buy just the pump cable. There's a 6-conductor male end on the pump... 6 conductors?? For what?? It's a PWM pump, but that implies 4 wires, not 6. If anyone has one and could post a photo of how it hooks up to the motherboard or whatever, I'd be seriously grateful!!!
 
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thenrz

Member
Joined
Feb 26, 2020
Location
Northeast Ohio
I don't understand the point of two flow meters in one loop, I guess, is my question. :)

Two separate loops. It is all in my post above. The GPU loop will be as the CPU loop is. Isolated for testing. A separate pump, res, rad, and sensor array. Even it's own tubing. :D
 

EarthDog

Gulper Nozzle Co-Owner
Joined
Dec 15, 2008
Location
Buckeyes!
Two separate loops. It is all in my post above. The GPU loop will be as the CPU loop is. Isolated for testing. A separate pump, res, rad, and sensor array. Even it's own tubing. :D
That's what I thought, but you said......

A second flow meter to the GPU loop which will be it's own isolated system.
...which threw me. I thought you meant a 2nd flow meter in the GPU loop. :)
 
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thenrz

Member
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Feb 26, 2020
Location
Northeast Ohio
Hahaha guys.... So the radiator I purchased off eBay. Got a great deal, brand new, alphacool 3x 180 rad. I read it the whole time as a 3*140mm... I guess I saw "80" and thought 280. I got it shipped to my door for just over $50 because the dude didn't label it correctly. No alphacool, no radiator in the title. Well...the thing is massive. A triple 180. Not only an odd size, but absolutely massive. Definitely not going to fit in the case in any possible orientation.

So, I'm going to print an adapter mount to attach to the 140 mounting holes on top of the case, and then print some shrouds to adapt some 200mm fans to it. I have some good black and green filament that should look fantastic.

Moral of the story. Don't buy giant radiators that won't fit in your case. Or better yet, be cognizant of things one spends $50 on :D

Edit: pictures of my idiocy added.

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BugFreak

Joined
Apr 29, 2010
Location
Central FL
Moral of the story. Don't buy giant radiators that won't fit in your case. Or better yet, be cognizant of things one spends $50 on
$50 is a steal for that radiator. Even with the weird size it is still a good deal imo.