Trouble Overclocking with MSI Z170A Gaming M5 + Intel 6600K Processor

[Laz322]

I'm not trying to insult you, I know how LLC and VRM Buck converter work. So when I read what your are saying about LLC and Adaptive + Offset Vcore, also your motherboard, I can't figure out what you know.

I'm not contradicting my self, all Z170 motherboards are made for overclocking and capable of mid overclocking just fine, It is the processors that are not able to overclock the same or use the same voltages.


The problem with overclocking a lot folks don't actually know what the settings in Bios do, so the is a lot of misunderstanding and false information.



Silicon Lottery is 1.392V CPU VCORE (Or less) for 4.6GHz. I know you can use offsets, however do you know what they are doing?


I will go over this again. Adaptive + Offset, means VID=(Adaptive), the VID is communicated by the microprocessor to the VRM + the offset voltage you set.

Separate CPU's in the same class have varying VID, so every CPU has it's own VID.

Override Mode = fixed voltage so it does not use the Dynamic VID.
Adaptive + Offset = VID + offset.
Override + Offset = Fixed voltage and Fixed voltage.

LLC (Load Line Calibration) is a Intel specification to prevent over shoot with voltage when there is a varying load.

Read this



What problems are some people having with the MSI Z170A Gaming M5?

Hey wingman, yeah man, I'm sorry. I took it the wrong way. I felt like you were taking a jab at my understanding. I get what the offsets do, at least the ones I have tried thus far, I was just asking for more clarification on Adaptive because I only used it once and moved along quickly afterward because it didn't do what I wanted at the time. I was trying a lot of different things, using different settings, etc. when I probably should have kept things as simple as possible.

I agree with you, it's important to know what settings you're changing and why. If you don't you can get yourself in a lot trouble, at worst you could fry your chip or burn up your motherboard. One of the reasons I created this thread was to speak with people like yourself, who have more experience then I do. Don't get me wrong, I used to overclock often (experimenting) many years ago, with the older, non-UEFI BIOS on a Gigabyte board (Intel e8400 Wolfdale chip) so I'm just getting back into the game and my understanding of the newer technology is growing but probably not at your level yet.

As for your offset question, yes I believe I do know what they do and right now I'm using Override Offset+ at 0.030mv-0.040mv (I haven't been in my Bios for a few days so the offset voltage could be off by a few millivolts. As for Adaptive offset, it's just as you described, it allows the processor to idle lower, and combat Vdroop at load, raising the voltage according the offset I manually set in the Bios. Another guy on another forum (Tom's Hardware) explained all of these things to me about two weeks ago. Honestly, I had no idea what the settings did until I spoke with him. But that's how we all learn, either from other people, our direct experiences, or by reading.

And a few posts back I did agree with you and said there was a good chance I lost the lottery. I just thought it was premature for you to say I lost the lottery (who wants to hear that?) when I still haven't tried everything possible and I still have some things to learn about Skylake processors and the Z170 chip-set, not to mention my specific board and how they label all of the different Bios settings.


Okay, Adaptive=VID and VRM means Voltage Regulator Module, correct?

Currently I'm at 4.0GHz with a Vcore of 1.280v and I'm using Offset Override+. I've had a busy week so I haven't had time to change any settings or experiment with different voltages. I used Adaptive offset only once so far and I did that at least a week ago. I don't recall why I changed it to Override, possibly because I didn't have a proper understanding of Adaptive Offset? I'm not sure, to be honest.

As for your last question (about my specific motherboard) - Well, people aren't having great luck with their 6600K and the M5, due to feeling that our voltages should be much lower in order to get to 80% 4.6GHz speeds. Silicon lottery gives averages and this board in combination with this chip just doesn't seem to be delivering. I doubt that we've all lost the silicon lottery, that just seems too unlucky and unlikely. Anything is possible though.

LLC (Load Line Calibration) is a Intel specification to prevent over shoot with voltage when there is a varying load.

Yeah, Vdroop, right? Different motherboard makers label their LLC in different ways, though I suspect (since Intel sets the specification) the values, though labeled differently, meet the Intel spec?

I have a question for you wingman: Can LLC be added to a board after the board is manufactured, by way coding it into the Bios? And if yes then that means MSI could provide a Bios update that includes LLC, correct?

Thanks for all of your help, I definitely appreciate it.

-laz.

P.S.,

I went back to review your post, specifically the "READ THIS" part. I should have read it before responding. So far it seems to be an accurate statement, i.e., I thought my motherboard might be the limiting factor in the problems I'm experiencing. I'm going to read the entire article/post. - Thanks.

Edit:

During periods of high CPU demand, the VRM circuit works hard to supply the current required by the processor. However, as soon as that load is gone, the VRM circuit must act quickly in order to reduce the current supply to the level needed to match the new demand. Because it's impossible for the VRM circuit to respond instantaneously, the larger the load change the greater the maximum potential peak overshoot voltage. Controlling the magnitude of these peak values is critical for maintaining system stability. By positioning the processor's no-load (idle) voltage level higher during periods of light loading, it's possible to sustain a larger negative voltage dip without crossing the processor's lower specified voltage limit. In addition, "drooping" the load voltage as a function of supply current allows the VRM to effectively limit the maximum positive peak overshoot voltage (experienced during a heavy to light load transient) to a value below the maximum allowable CPU voltage. This resulting control system ensures the processor supply voltage, regardless of CPU load, never violates a specified limit. The following figure should help to illustrate these concepts.

This is really good information, thank you. It raises some new questions.

If you determine that 1.17V, as in the case above, is not sufficient for maintaining CPU stability under load, simply increasing the CPU VID does correct the problem. Let's now examine how the system responds if we remove Voffset.

Does it, really? Does this apply to Skylake?

My VID is currently 1.220v according to AIDA64 Extreme (AIDA allows the user to add offsets to its monitoring software and I bring this up because AIDA seems to give different results then other monitoring programs, like slightly higher core temps if I compare AIDA to the Core Temp program. That means (I think) that I can go into AIDA and adjust the offsets to match what I believe to be the more accurate reading, depending which monitoring program is truly the most accurate).

I like AIDA, it has a lot of really useful tools and information, so if I can set AIDA up using AIDA offsets I can tailor AIDA to display more accurate readings then what its own sensors are picking up.

UPDATE*

Wingman/Trents please read this entire page so we're all on the same page and I can ask you guys for advice.

Thanks -laz.

 

[wingman99]

Okay, Adaptive=VID and VRM means Voltage Regulator Module, correct?

Yes. VID is (Voltage identification) from the CPU=Adaptive.

I went back to review your post, specifically the "READ THIS" part. I should have read it before responding. So far it seems to be an accurate statement, i.e., I thought my motherboard might be the limiting factor in the problems I'm experiencing. I'm going to read the entire article/post. - Thanks.

All Intel boards including yours have load line Calibration that is what Intel calls the function of there specification, however you said you can't disable LLC or set yours to a lower factor on your board, however that does not mater for 24/7 clock.

If you determine that 1.17V, as in the case above, is not sufficient for maintaining CPU stability under load, simply increasing the CPU VID does correct the problem. Let's now examine how the system responds if we remove Voffset.

Does it, really? Does this apply to Skylake?

This is what I have been trying to explain to you in my posts

Yes from 2007 since I read the article on http://www.anandtech.com/show/2404/5 till now it is all the same, except now folks can pick levels of LLC in Bios, not just disable LLC.
So all you need to do is not disable LLC then use Adptive+Offset to the peak voltage you want. The voltage will not over shoot with varying load, also the power saving features should to be at default settings, otherwise the IDLE Vcore will be higher than a light load because the CPU VID will lower with a light load.

Also the VID does not change in the CPU however it is dynamic, the Offset does the changing in voltage.

My VID is currently 1.220v according to AIDA64 Extreme

My VID with Realbench stress test running at 4.2Ghz is 1.192v so you have a Ok VID. The VID is set by Intel inside the CPU and will rise and fall with load.

I like AIDA, it has a lot of really useful tools and information, so if I can set AIDA up using AIDA offsets I can tailor AIDA to display more accurate readings then what its own sensors are picking up.

AIDA is a software utility. All software utilities read fom the CPU and motherboard sensors.

Sandy bridge to skylake 24/7 overclocking is easy. Set multiplier up a little, up the Adaptive+Offset, max temp, and max voltage, then minimum voltage.
I read the entire page. http://techreport.com/ so ask away.

 

[Laz322]

Hey wingman,

All Intel boards including yours have load line Calibration that is what Intel calls the function of there specification, however you said you can't disable LLC or set yours to a lower factor on your board, however that does not mater for 24/7 clock.

Okay, but according to MSI the Z170A Gaming M5 does not have LLC, at least that is what their tech support guys keep telling me? Could you mean all Intel boards have LLC but some motherboard makers label it differently, i.e,, call it something other then LLC?

To be clear, MSI says the M5 doesn't have LLC and in order to get that feature I would have to buy the M7 motherboard. They told me that LLC cannot be added to the M5 because it is done through hardware/circuitry, so a Bios revision is out of the question. That comes from MSI, not me.

Hopefully we can get to the bottom of this tiny mystery.

-laz.

 

[trents]

Laz, I think what he was saying is that LLC is built into the Intel spec for the CPU but it is dynamic so he amount is dependent on load. It is not manually adjustable. Some bioses have an LLC option that allows you to override that which is built into the CPU function.

 

[Laz322]

Ahh, got it. I was checking out HWmonitor and noticed something I hadn't seen before, under VID it had a LLC/Ring Offset.

Questions for wingman and trents and whomever else has something to add:

I got 4.2GHz stable with Adaptive (Passed Burn Test & lasted an easy hour using AIDA stress test, also used Cinebench). I set the Ring ratio to 41. After I felt the 4.2GHz was stable I saved it (all settings in the Bios for 4.2GHz stable)...

...then raised the multiplier to 43 with a Ring Ratio of 42. I had to up the voltage (thus far) to a Vcore of 1.300v and it is set to Adaptive. It's on Adaptive Offset +0.060 and I can't get through the "Standard" IBT test. My VID is rather high at 1.325v and inside the Bios my Vcore is showing higher then I set it (I imagine this is my added offset value showing, even though it is higher then my offset?).

XMP has been on during most of the testing and I've been keeping the Ring Ratio one step below the multiplier. I'm wondering if I should pump up the voltage some more or lower the Ring Ratio? I'm also thinking about those other settings, in that article I asked you guys to read. I forget what they are called right now but had "long" and "short" values and were related either to amperage, current, or wattage?

I also read something recently (on Reddit) that upping the PCH Voltage can help stabilize an overclock. I don't want to get too ahead of myself though. I feel like I might be doing something wrong with it set to Adaptive +. Should I ditch my own offset and allow Adaptive auto to do it for me?

Thanks,

-laz.

 

[Laz322]

Hey wingman99,

This is what I have been trying to explain to you in my posts

Haha! No doubt, sorry for being hard-headed.

Yes from 2007 since I read the article on http://www.anandtech.com/show/2404/5 till now it is all the same, except now folks can pick levels of LLC in Bios, not just disable LLC. So all you need to do is not disable LLC then use Adaptive+Offset to the peak voltage you want. The voltage will not over shoot with varying load, also the power saving features should to be at default settings, otherwise the IDLE Vcore will be higher than a light load because the CPU VID will lower with a light load.

I'd like to get this out of the way, I have no LLC setting in my Bios. Like your article mentioned, because of people misunderstanding what LLC does, some motherboard manufacturers have removed LLC from their Bios because end users thought it was bad.

It isn't bad and I thought it was an important setting for overclocking, so important that if my motherboard didn't have it then I thought I would be limited in my overclocks, hence the reason that I was talking about returning my motherboard earlier in this thread.

Again, though, I don't have any LLC settings so explain what that means for me and how I overclock?

Okay, the article also mentions the VRM and how current is supplied to the VRM, and that less is better. At some point, if I cannot get stable at 4.3GHz or 4.4GHz wouldn't that be the time to start thinking about changing some of the more advanced features in my Bios? (I understand that great care needs to be taken because if set wrong, I could do irreparable damage to my processor and motherboard)

Thank you,

-laz.

 

[wingman99]

I'd like to get this out of the way, I have no LLC setting in my Bios. Like your article mentioned, because of people misunderstanding what LLC does, some motherboard manufacturers have removed LLC from their Bios because end users thought it was bad.

It isn't bad and I thought it was an important setting for overclocking, so important that if my motherboard didn't have it then I thought I would be limited in my overclocks, hence the reason that I was talking about returning my motherboard earlier in this thread.

Again, though, I don't have any LLC settings so explain what that means for me and how I overclock?

Disabling LLC is not good because the voltage overshoots when the load is varied. If you determine that 1.33V, is not sufficient for maintaining CPU stability under load, simply increasing the CPU (Adaptive + offset) does correct the problem, with low voltage. To explain in simple terms (Adaptive + offset) makes up for not disabling LLC and (Adaptive + offset) protects the CPU for longevity.

If you've ever overclocked a system, chances are that at some point or another you've had opportunity to become upset with your Vdroop "problem." Some users, confused as to why their system refuses to exactly match actual processor supply voltage to the value specified in BIOS, are quick to blame the quality their motherboard; still others find fault with the difference noted between their board's idle and full-load processor supply voltages. Actually, load line droop (Vdroop) is an inherent part of any Intel power delivery design specification and serves an important role in maintaining system stability. In most cases, comments regarding unacceptable power delivery performance are completely unfounded. To make matters worse, unjustified negative consumer perception surrounding this often misunderstood design feature eventually forced a few motherboard manufacturers to respond to enthusiasts' demands for action by adding an option in their BIOS that effectively disables this important function. http://www.anandtech.com/show/2404/5

Anandtech is a very well respected site, they pay there writers and some have electrical engineering degrees.

When People are going for overclocking records with LN2 there is no need for any precautions to protect the CPU, so there on the EDGE of overclocking a skylake at 7025.66MHz they don't deal with vdroop or Adaptive voltage because there not looking for longevity.

I got 4.2GHz stable with Adaptive (Passed Burn Test & lasted an easy hour using AIDA stress test, also used Cinebench). I set the Ring ratio to 41. After I felt the 4.2GHz was stable I saved it (all settings in the Bios for 4.2GHz stable)...

...then raised the multiplier to 43 with a Ring Ratio of 42. I had to up the voltage (thus far) to a Vcore of 1.300v and it is set to Adaptive. It's on Adaptive Offset +0.060 and I can't get through the "Standard" IBT test. My VID is rather high at 1.325v and inside the Bios my Vcore is showing higher then I set it (I imagine this is my added offset value showing, even though it is higher then my offset?).

VID is Adaptive, so + offset is increasing voltage off the starting point of the dynamic Vid.
(Adaptive + Offset)= Adaptive=VID 1.325v + Offset 0.060v=1.385v

Leave Ring ratio on Auto there is no improvement with increasing the memory controller ring bus clock, also you could have some stability problems with overclocking the memory controller ring bus.

Okay, the article also mentions the VRM and how current is supplied to the VRM, and that less is better. At some point, if I cannot get stable at 4.3GHz or 4.4GHz wouldn't that be the time to start thinking about changing some of the more advanced features in my Bios? (I understand that great care needs to be taken because if set wrong, I could do irreparable damage to my processor and motherboard)

You are going around in circles, take notes on the voltages that is seen with overcloking at the GHz speed with stress testing.. All that needs to be done to have the best mild overclocking for skylake is set your Bios to default and only change the multiplier then (Adaptive + offset). There is no other settings in Bios that effects the skylake CPU cores for mild overclocking, just the Vcore does. Don't over think this, if you wan't to know how things work read articles like Anandtech and wikipedia don't trust the forums for that kind information. like this is for VRM and VID. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voltage_regulator_module

From what I have seen from the Vcore voltage you have been trying the CPU falls below the average. Have you tried Bios default setting + (Adaptive + offset) for a total of 1.339v at 4.3-4.5GHz with stress testing?

 

[Laz322]

Hey Wingman,

Sorry for the late reply,

I'm watching a soccer game right now but will answer and ask some questions in detail later on .

As for your question:

Have you tried Bios default setting + (Adaptive + offset) for a total of 1.339v at 4.3-4.5GHz with stress testing?

It's been so long (weeks ago) that I really can't remember, so I guess that constitutes a no. I'll try it and get back to you. I think you're right, I might be over-complicating things.

-laz.

 

[aeriumM]

Apologies for the necro but this is the most relevant thread which I could find as I'm also using the msi gaming m5.

I'm currently running on override volt @1.34 for a 4.5ghz clock. Do you think this is advisable to run this for long period of time? My temp would hover around 50-60ish on stress test but I doubt that real world gaming would stress it that much.

 

[wingman99]

Apologies for the necro but this is the most relevant thread which I could find as I'm also using the msi gaming m5.

I'm currently running on override volt @1.34 for a 4.5ghz clock. Do you think this is advisable to run this for long period of time? My temp would hover around 50-60ish on stress test but I doubt that real world gaming would stress it that much.

Your plenty safe. The processor safe limits are 90c, 1.44v 24/7.