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Trying to run CR1 on G.Skill TridentZ

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Zantal

Member
Joined
Mar 19, 2009
I have been running with a 32GB G.Skill kit 4000MT at 15-15-15-30 Gear 1 and everything else as tight as I can run it without any errors.
Currently testing on an Asus z690-P D4 and 12900k

The only thing that is left for me to improve on is the Command Rate which defaults at 2T and whenever I set it at 1T it just won't train, not even at xmp settings (16-16-16-36 and everything else on auto)

Should I just give up? I am already getting a very "low" latency of 41ns (measured with intel's mlc)

Or is there a way to even attempt running it at CR1?
 

Woomack

Benching Team Leader
Joined
Jan 2, 2005
It's not guaranteed it will work and often depends on the motherboard. I can't run 4000 CR1 on ASRock Z690 Extreme too while I could on MSI Z590I Unify with the same RAM. Maybe future BIOS updates will help but hard to say.
 

RGE

Senior Member
Joined
Feb 16, 2008
Location
East Coast
Need a 2 dimm board with shorter path to cpu/higher signal integrity, like Asus ROG apex or MSI unify-x, both run CR1 easily. Most 4 dimm boards wont train CR1, let alone run it stable.
 

Woomack

Benching Team Leader
Joined
Jan 2, 2005
You are giving examples of high OC series motherboards with top BIOS support ;) but it also works on cheaper 4-slot mobos ... if they're done right and have good BIOS. I had no problems with that on some 4-slot Z490/Z590 mobos while it doesn't really work on popular Z690 and DDR4-3733+. The only problem with Z690 is that most mobos have below-average BIOS support and manufacturers still solve various issues, not focusing on the RAM tuning.
With DDR5, I couldn't make CR1 boot on Strix Z690i-Gaming and older BIOS while it works on the latest BIOS ... but gives almost nothing.
 

RGE

Senior Member
Joined
Feb 16, 2008
Location
East Coast
fake CR1 or real CR1? my unify x has both options. CR1 (fake) follow intel code N:1 but mode set 3 in register, this gives +1000mb read/copy speed, +1500 mb write and drops latency 1-2ns. CR1 (real) direct set 1N mode in register, adds 1400mb/s read/copy, 1700write, and drops latency 2-3ns. both require higher volts and both allow higher scores in multiple benchmarks. Real CR1 much more difficult to get stable. There are some motherboards that allow "CR1" that questionably follow intel code so not sure if even qualifies as fake CR1, if you dont see signficant increase in speeds...

Raja (works for Asus) has stated mostly due to signal integrity on 2 dimm boards which allows true CR1 ( common knowledge), but yes bios support important agreed. Apex 2 dimm ($800+ mobo) and one of the asus strix 2 dimm mobo ($500 mobo) easily boot/stable true CR1 and yes both have good bios support. Asus z690 hero (4 dimm) $700 mobo will not boot/train CR1, and Rog maximus extreme ($1100 4 dimm board). only 1 person out of maybe 6 on forum got CR1 booted on 1 good hynix kit, rest couldnt get it booted. All high end, all with good bios support.

Point is 2 dimm boards can almost always do real CR1 and run stable, also more money put in signal integrity maximizing on 2 dimm, as the only reason to buy them is mem overclocking. And agreed some 4 boards manage with right ram/bios but is it really CR1 and is it stable, probably rarely.
 

Woomack

Benching Team Leader
Joined
Jan 2, 2005
I know how CR works. I tested enough all these years to realize that ;) On ASUS I have only N1/2/3 options. This is also a 2-slot mobo. On other boards, it was a bit different like N:1, Real 1N etc. On Gigabyte Z690 Master it works at CR1 too but this mobo has problems with stability at 6000+ in general so I can only confirm it boots. On ASUS I see ~0.5-1GB/s better results and average of about 1ns latency. This is when I already have ~95-100GB/s and ~57ns. When you rerun AIDA64 a couple of times, then it gives +/- 2GB/s and up to 3-5ns latency so really 0.5-1GB/s and 1ns feel like an error margin ;) When it works then great, if it doesn't then I wouldn't cry ;)

I generally try to stick with 2-slot mobos for RAM tests but some 4-slot are not bad too (matter of PCB, traces, and other things). Usually, on good 4-slot DDR4 mobos from last generations, you could set CR1 up to about 4000-4133, sometimes a bit higher. On Z690 I couldn't boot with CR1 and RAM at 3800+ on any mobo so far. Hard to call any Z690 DDR4 high-end and they clearly lack Samsung IC optimization.
Right now I'm using Strix Z690I-Gaming for DDR5 tests (not going to spend money on anything else) and I wait on any updates for Gigabyte Z690 Master which even after 4 BIOS updates in the last month is acting weird and fails to work at XMP/6000 without errors.

I was counting on Hynix DDR5 for tests but the latest ADATA 6000 kit that arrived is Samsung too (the same PN can be Samsung or Hynix and main timings are the same too). One G.Skill 6000 C36 kit died, the new one OC about the same. Except for one Kingston kit which is Micron-based, everything else that I got is Samsung. At least this ADATA kit is a bit better than G.Skill.
 

RGE

Senior Member
Joined
Feb 16, 2008
Location
East Coast
agreed, have seen your posts for long time (was RGE blue member here years ago before change which wiped out my account) and wasnt questioning anything you said as you spend more time with ram then me, just hate to see people like OP spending hours trying to run CR1 on 4 dimm boards by judging others doing it easily on 2 dimm mobos built for CR1 including as you say with bios.

And yes on repeatable benchmarks real 1N on my unify x equivalent to 70-100mz speed, ie my samsung 6000C32 CR1 tests slightly less than halfway between 6000C32 CR2 and 6200C32 CR2. So even though I can run CR1, I use 6200C32 CR2 (cr1 not stable with 6200 and cant do 6400). So agree, CR1 isnt a big deal just adds an in between speed.

And yeah, i tried for hynix as well, now have 2 samsung kits, one bought on purpose.
 
OP
Zantal

Zantal

Member
Joined
Mar 19, 2009
just hate to see people like OP spending hours trying to run CR1 on 4 dimm boards by judging others doing it easily on 2 dimm mobos built for CR1 including as you say with bios.

nah man, didn't even bother to, I am just here since my previous kit could do 4k cr1 but would spit out an error every once in a while so I just bought a "bargain" b-die that worked at my max imc speed of 4000
I am waiting for a possible miracle bios update but I guess all the ddr5 kits just not working even at stock speeds have priority over ddr4 discontinued ICs :p
 

Woomack

Benching Team Leader
Joined
Jan 2, 2005
The only thing I hate on various forums is when people never test anything on their own but repost theories of other people who are often clueless (not saying about anyone here right now). On the web it works like when something is repeated enough times then it becomes a rule. Somehow, it's not always true but later you can fight with people on the forums trying to prove you are right. If you start a battle on, for example, OCN then the stupidity of other people will win anyway. This is why I'm not posting on most other forums, as it's waste of time. This is also why many people send me direct messages or emails asking for help and skip forums. I ask them why they are not posting on the forums, and I get a reply similar to what I said before.

I just tested Biostar B660 GTA and it somehow works at 4000 CR1 without issues (passed ~10h+ various tests), but can't boot at Gear 1 above ~3733. Funny thing is that I couldn't make Biostar Z690A Valkyrie (2 or 3x more expensive mobo) work at 4000 CR1/Gear1 ... or even boot past 3733 with my Samsung kits.

Re DDR5, I'm returning my G.Skill 6000 C36 kit today. It's my 2nd G.Skill kit as the first one died and I got my money back. I compared the 2nd kit to ADATA 6000 C40 (both Samsung) and G.Skill OC worse and has problems with compatibility on Gigabyte where ADATA works without issues. ADATA also acts better at higher voltages. G.Skill works fine on ASUS but still OC worse than ADATA.
I will try to get something Hynix-based and the cheapest seems Kingston Fury 5600/6000. ADATA/Team Group and some others have mixed IC under the same PN so you never know what you get.
 
OP
Zantal

Zantal

Member
Joined
Mar 19, 2009
I just tested Biostar B660 GTA and it somehow works at 4000 CR1 without issues (passed ~10h+ various tests), but can't boot at Gear 1 above ~3733. Funny thing is that I couldn't make Biostar Z690A Valkyrie (2 or 3x more expensive mobo) work at 4000 CR1/Gear1 ... or even boot past 3733 with my Samsung kits.
I hope 13xxx will have better motherboards, I already have a buyer for my current system and I want to go DDR5 now since I am suspecting my go to game is memory bound at this point

Keep up the good work, when time comes I'll need to know which kits perform the better on which motherboard brand.

Right now it's just a mess, and I should've known better.

I have read online samsung b-die is notoriously more difficult to run at CR1, has this any validity or it just depends on the motherboard?
 

Woomack

Benching Team Leader
Joined
Jan 2, 2005
In most cases, it depends on some more factors but generally, it's a matter of motherboard. Lower capacity RAM also runs easier at tight timings and CR1. For me, 16GB RAM is not enough and from higher capacities, Micron/Hynix DDR4 are easier to OC. Samsung is an older IC, which runs great at tighter timings but also lower frequencies (lower for me is already 4600 and less). For some reason, the latest motherboards are not optimized for Samsung and I really don't get it as Samsung is advertised as the best gaming IC while new gaming motherboards run better with Hynix/Micron (especially everything designed for Intel),
There are some variables that affect RAM OC, CR, and other things. If you are after OC then just focus on 2 RAM slot motherboards as they're usually optimized for higher clocks and there is a higher chance on tighter timings and higher frequencies. It's not a rule but most highest OC mobos have 2 memory slots like ASUS Apex, EVGA Dark, MSI Unify-X, Gigabyte Tachyon, ... and everything ITX/DTX that is as good if not better. I'm usually buying higher ITX motherboards which are great for RAM OC and still significantly cheaper than the highest OC series.

I'm not happy about constant changes and new chipsets and ridiculous prices of new motherboards. Z490 was made in a hurry to cover the things that were missing in Z390 and gave us bugged LAN and other issues. When Z590 appeared then most manufacturers only released required updates and moved their teams to work on Z690. Somehow Z690 is a premiere fail. Almost 3 months after the release, and there are many bugs and at least DDR4 OC worse than on older mobos. Z790 is in plans for the next months but why do we even need it when the next CPU series suppose to work on Z690? Some higher Z590 models didn't even hit the stores and Z690 replaced them.

For gaming/daily work I don't really care to have the latest PC as it barely changes anything. I'm usually using something 1-2 generations back and change when I see a chance to sell older stuff at a reasonable price so I can use something newer after tests that isn't worth selling.