Upgrading !! Just not sure when, and a few Qs

[TerranBrackiatt]

Earth is my current rig, a phenom II 965 BE, and i'm noticing that my SLI setup is barely equalling the performance of a 3570k or 3770k SINGLE gtx 670 build. so i'm thinking it's time to upgrade that CPU /MOBO combo.

my primary usage: mostly gaming and BLURAY playback.
EDIT: i'm also considering folding, now too, since one of my coworkers recently died of cancer.
EDIT: just to make it perfectly clear, this is an (entry level?) Enthusiast Build... not a value build. i've read all about the recommended i5 3750 + extreme 4, and that's not what i want. i AM going to overclock, i just don't know how much yet. not enough to need extreme cooling and not enough to join the bench teams. i want a stable system.

i do happen to mod skyrim heavily, with some "punish your machine" style mods. a couple MMO's. modded skyrim and witcher 2 are my most machine punishing titles, but there's also Crysis and metro 2033. still waiting an a great deal on a 30" monitor. (IE earth will run vanilla skyrim at 180 fps @ 1080p... with all the xtreme HD textures and advanced AI + physics + new spells and effects, and big battle mods i've added, Earth can only run skyrim at 40-60fps, and i'm wanting to add more but my CPU can't handle them all.)

now, the features i'm looking for:

~ full x16 bandwidth for 2 slots for SLI (no PLX tricks please)
~ 1 slot for my X-Fi titanium soundcard (TrueHD, DTS:ES, DD:EX playback) i suppose this could simply use the backward compatability in a spare 16x slot. onboard audio is NOT an option.
~ 8 USB slots rear for peripherals. the cosmos 2 case will have more USB ports up front. Earth currently uses rear case expansion slots to obtain 4 USB slots
~ i'm curious if dual LAN could improve my MMO experience
~ longevity of MOBO (you can see i'll be re-using MOST of Earth's components...)

i'm considering the x79 big bang + either the 3820 or 3930X and a future upgrade to a CPU w/pcie 3.0 controller... or possibly a e5 1650 for the extra pcie 3.0 bandwidth now. these will go into a COSMOS 2 case.

now, i'm looking at the LGA2011 platform mainly because the z77s only offer x8/x8 3.o SLI support. and i plan on keeping the board as long as possible. x8/x8 3.o SLI = same bandwidth as x16/x16 2.0 SLI so that's not an upgrade, and frankly will never be able to utilize full 3.o bandwidth, so what's the point? eventually there'll be CPUs on the 2011 platform with 3.o controllers. and when they come out i'll get one. (EDIT: to clarify, LGA2011 boards with the x79 chip offer pcie 3.0 x16/x16/x8 tri-SLI)

now, the use of a separate sound card PLUS SLI is what makes my board selection most difficult, as most of the cheaper boards locate their pcie 1x slots directly below the graphics card slot, knowing full well that the dual slot cards will block the 1x slot, so even the z77 boards would cost me over 300$US, which, if i have to spend that much money, might as well get the newer platform.

some Qs...

1) for EPS 2.91+ PSUs... like my toughpower 1200W, there is a 4+4 pin CPU connector and a 8 pin CPU connector. that x79 big bang has 2 8pin CPU power ports. will the 4+4 pin connector work in the second port? might make OCing the 3930 easier, but i don't think i'll actually NEED that power. (i ask because Earth's motherboard rejected the 4+4 connector, but the 8 pin fits just fine. don't wanna have to replace the PSU if i don't have to. but if i DO have to, i'll be tempted to use a spare GTX 480 as a dedicated physX card just because.) no problems. the 4+4 fits the 8 pin just fine

2) anyone have experience plugging a pcie 1x soundcard into a 16x 2.o slot? and it works just fine?

3) i'm guessing that OCing a 3820/3930X will offer better short term performance than the extra bandwidth from the locked xeon chip? since the big bang has 1push 4.0GHz Ocing, even a OC noob like me should be able to have a stable system. edit: found some info regarding pcie 3.0 and sandy bridge E, posted later in thread. no longer an issue

4) will a 3930X run at 4 GHz cool enough on air? say a CM212 or a Zalman 12x? or should i consider Water Cooling for the CPU? getting a swiftech h20 220 elite water cooler to be sure

5) i couldn't find CPU or RAM support lists on MSI's website (it appears the pages were removed for some reason, as i tried using links from various google fu sessions to the tune of error 404 repeating over and over again) does anyone happen to have a RAM list for the x79 big bang anywhere? edit: nevermind, the links magickly started working again

my 4x2g dominators have a xmp1600 profile at 1.65v (yeah i didn't realize i bought the wrong RAM til it was too late) so i'm also thinking of getting a 4x4g quad channel kit for the new build. maybe even a 4x8g kit. edit: answered by Knu below, not a problem

now, i've heard a few o' y'all say that going faster than DDR3 1600 is really only useful for benching... but i'll ask this anywho:

6) is it worth buying 1866, 2133, or 2400 RAM for the x79 BIG BANG, and does anyone know if the XMP profiles or the 1push 4.0GHz OC genie automatically set the faster speed and proper timings? or would i have to set up the RAM speeds and timing manually in the BIOS for the faster RAM?
edit: answered: no noticable difference with faster RAM. ALSO duh, reread the big bang review here on OCreviews, and yes, XMP profiles at higher speeds are supposed to ato OC with the one push OC

7) does faster RAM improve folding?
8) does PCIE 3.0 bandwidth improve folding on GPU's?

so basicly my new setup would look like:

cosmos 2 case, 3930k w/Swoftech h20 220 elite, x79 big bang, G Skill Ripjaws Z 4x4g ddr3 2400 RAM, 2x GTX 670 SLI, 600g velociRaptor, 240G intel 520 SSD, 2t caviar, LG Bluray, memorex DVD, toughpower 1200W PSU. win 7 64b

oh, and thanks for all the best bang for the buck advice, unfortunately i have those obstacles above (dedicated sound card, better SLI bandwidth) that add to the cost of my system. i've also been blessed with quite a bit of OT lately... so i've got a little cash to burn and i'm trying to upgrade the core of my system before i burn it on a couple Titans and a 30" monitor.

i am also debating waiting for q3 to see if those new Ivy E chips are worth it or not, but like i said, i got some overtime burning a hole in my pocket...

i also forgot to mention that i have 7 silenX iXtrema 120mm case fans... they move 90cfm @1400rpm @ 18db (120mmx120mmx38mm) i'll be moving 4 or 5 of them into cosmos 2 for case cooling. 2 side intakes over the GPUs, 2-3 as exhaust at the top of the case. maybe 1 on the backplate as exhaust, but i was thinking that the default CM fans in their default locations wouldn't need to be replaced. (200mm intake, front. 140mm exhaust, back. 2x120mm side intake for HDD cage, blows straight through the case out the other side) so this might affect answers for CPU cooling

edit: i found out i'm about 3hr drive from a microcenter in either houston or D/FW areas. there's also a Fry's around the corner from me, but they're sold out of the big bang and cosmos 2 atm...

 

[Knufire]

Frankly, by the time 3.0 x8 is an issue on video cards, you'd want to change platforms. 2.0 x8/3.0 x4, from what I know, only have extremely small bottlenecking on latest gen cards.

Just because you have cash to burn doesn't mean you should burn it.

Besides, I'd suspect that with the release of Ivy Bridge-E, there would be a new chipset for 2011 anyway for PCIe 3.0. By the time those are out, faster CPUs are already going to be out for Haswell/LGA1150 anyway. If you want that much bandwidth and longevity, you want to go 990FX and an 8320.

I've seen 1.65V RAM run fine on Sandy and Ivy, long term.

 

[Kylesims]

^ I can't confirm nor deny Knu's stuff on Intel, as I'm not an Intel guy. Never looked into their stuff, and have no idea what's coming out.. But I'm running an 8320 with a Gigabyte 990fx-ud5 board, and I -love- it. Running an ATI HD7950, and so far, I haven't found something it can't do. I run three monitors, with two seperate games running on two of them, and the computer doesn't even stutter.

 

[wetlayed]

Since were on the topic on this, Whats the difference between PCI E 2.0 and 3.0?

 

[wetlayed]

^ I can't confirm nor deny Knu's stuff on Intel, as I'm not an Intel guy. Never looked into their stuff, and have no idea what's coming out.. But I'm running an 8320 with a Gigabyte 990fx-ud5 board, and I -love- it. Running an ATI HD7950, and so far, I haven't found something it can't do. I run three monitors, with two seperate games running on two of them, and the computer doesn't even stutter.

Im going to be building my system similar to this except with a 6300 in a GB 990FXA UD3 with a GB HD 7950 when the mobo is PCI E 2.0 x 16 but the gpu is 3.0 x 16? will this card be compatible with my mobo?

Sorry for hijacking your thread OP!

 

[Knufire]

PCIe is backwards and forwards compatible.

 

[TerranBrackiatt]

Since were on the topic on this, Whats the difference between PCI E 2.0 and 3.0?

pcie 3.0 is double the bandwidth of pcie 2.0. so pcie 3.0 8x is the same bandwidth as pcie 2.0 16x. to get the full bandwidth, you need the CPU controller at 3.0, the motherboard at 3.0 and the vid card to be 3.0. if any of the three is 2.0, you'll be limited to 2.0 bandwidth. now, it's been argued that so far, no real performance is gained going to 3.0, unless you're running very high resolutions.

and for the record... any hijackers owe me 3 pounds of thick sliced, applewood smoked bacon.

Knu, it's good to hear the higher volt RAM works fine with sandy and ivy builds. one less thing i'll need to upgrade right away. i might just wait for the ivy-E chips anyway, as i've been mullin' this upgrade path over for a month or two as it is anyway. i usually start gettin the upgrade itch a good 6-8 months before i actually should, and as a result i sometimes end up buying just before new tech hits the market... take for example my phenom 2 965... less than 6 months after i bought it, the sata iii 6gb/s tech went mainstream...

 

[Knufire]

I mean, the main thing I really don't like about Ivy Bridge-E is the timing that it's coming out. The reason being that Haswell is coming out before then, so, unless you do something that actually takes advantage take of all 12 threads, you're paying a lot more for a slower CPU. That's basically how it is with the current 2011 and 1155 CPUs as well. There isn't a way yet to get multiple 3.0 x16 slots without PLX, and it's because that's because we're so car away from actually needing such bandwidth.

 

[TerranBrackiatt]

hmmmm my google-fu skills must be improvin', or i'm no longer bacon deficient.

apparently, sandy bridge E processors ARE capable of pcie 3.0, but are not certified due to lack of 3.0 video cards at time of launch. Nvidia actually released a patch for their drivers back in june 2012 to force 3.0 bandwidth on lga2011 platforms.

the patch on nvidia's site:
http://nvidia.custhelp.com/app/answ...sion/L3RpbWUvMTM0MDIyMzU2OC9zaWQvaDEzbE45X2s=

about the patch:
http://www.techpowerup.com/168027/N...g-Patch-for-Sandy-Bridge-E-HEDT-Platform.html

someone testing the patch: (the difference between pcie 2.0 vs pcie 3.0 in SLI setups at high res)
http://www.overclock.net/t/1220962/...y-and-computer-edition-2012/370#post_16915399

more reading: including links to official nvidia specs and official intel datasheets
http://www.techpowerup.com/162942/G...-Express-to-Gen-2.0-on-X79-SNB-E-Systems.html

edit: conclusion
sandy bridge E is CAPABLE of running pcie 3.0, but pcie 3.0 NOT supported by intel or nVidia for the CPUs

 

[Knufire]

The question is where the not capability comes from. If it's the CPU, then when Ivy Bridge-E comes out, you should be able to drop it in a X79 board and get PCIe 3.0. If it's the chipset that can't do 3.0, then you'll need a new motherboard for 3.0 with IB-E.

 

[TerranBrackiatt]

x79 chipset is built from the ground up for the pcie 3.0 and is supported. all the lga2011 mobo manufaturers list pcie 3.0 as a feature on every box.

it's the sandy bridge E specifically that is capable, but not supported. ie use at my own risk because intel won't help me out on the phone or replace the chip if i do something wrong. gonna OC it anyway, so that's non-issue. basicly, since the CPU CAN run pcie 3.0, (but it's not officially validated) i won't need to upgrade to ivy-E to get pcie 3.0. granted ivy E will probably run a lot cooler, being 22nm and all. but everything i've found so far still says 130W TDP.

 

[Knufire]

One thing...I still fail to see why you would need 3.0 x16? Hell, 1.0 x16 barely bottlenecks modern video cards.

 

[Conumdrum]

One thing...I still fail to see why you would need 3.0 x16? Hell, 1.0 x16 barely bottlenecks modern video cards.

Because he was told on the 'Internets' he had to have it.

 

[TerranBrackiatt]

"if you haven't figured it out by now, there's no sense in me trying to explain it to you." now name the movie from which that general quote comes. it was paraphrased twice by different characters in response to questions asked by a third character.

and to partially answer your Q: that's a feature that could easily add a year or two to the life of my rig in the future. do i need it right now? not necesarily. but 4 years from now it might make the difference in simply replacing the CPU or having to rebuild the whole rig from scratch. did i need 8G DDR3 ram when i built earth 4 years ago? no i certainly did not. but today, that's 200$ less i have to spend in upgrades that i can apply toward a better CPU, or towards a 2560x1600 monitor.

do i need 2x gtx 670 4G in SLI? not really, but i can't play skyrim with all my mods without them. and upgrading to a i7 on either z77 or x79 platforms will double my performance. between the two, x79 gives the better bandwidth.

and FYI... i've upgraded my video cards on earth twice already. started with the gtx 285 from my previous build. a year later bought 2 gtx 480. 2 years later bought 2 gtx 670 4G because i found a game the 480s couldn't run (MODDED skyrim) now my CPU is the noticable bottle neck. and i can finally afford that monitor.

pcie 3.0 tech is available and a year old. why should i bottleneck a NEW rig with OLD technology? especially one i plan on keeping awhile? especially when i only have to replace the CPU and mobo this time around?

 

[Knufire]

You're missing a lot of important details.

One, technology gets cheaper over time. 8GB DDR3 kits are dirt cheap now. You would have spent less money over time with 4GB of memory then and 8GB of memory now.

What you've been completely ignoring is the fact that, based on the trends that PCIe has gone through, it WON'T extend the life of your computer. By the time PCIe 3.0 x8 becomes a bottleneck, you would want to replace your CPU and motherboard anyway because of lack of performance. Given that fact, and considering the Z77 CPUs are BETTER at gaming than the X79 CPUs, I see no reason why you should go X79. Z77 has sufficient bandwidth for several years into the future.

 

[Conumdrum]

"if you haven't figured it out by now, there's no sense in me trying to explain it to you." now name the movie from which that general quote comes. it was paraphrased twice by different characters in response to questions asked by a third character.

Good for you. I think I saw that movie. It had a lot to do with PC's.

QUOTE]

 

[Conumdrum]

"if you haven't figured it out by now, there's no sense in me trying to explain it to you." now name the movie from which that general quote comes. it was paraphrased twice by different characters in response to questions asked by a third character.

I saw that movie, it had a lot to do with PC building.

 

[TerranBrackiatt]

something else i found out about ivy E is that they'll support 1866 RAM in their controllers. so again i ask, is 1866 or faster worth getting over 1600 speed RAM. or is it just for benching teams and bragging rights? (this will partially help me decide if it's worth it to me to wait for ivy E)

and considering rising costs of CPU coolers, (i know the CM 212 is still 35$US, but stuff like the zalman 12x is getting up there at 80-90$ range) i'm actually considering water cooling. 100-130$ gets a corsair h100 kit. i live in central texas, where 100-110 F temps are common in the summer, and the ambient room temperature where the PC sleeps easily reaches 85-90F without an additional AC unit (second floor apartments kinda suck... electric bills skyrocket in the summer)

and Knu... thanks for trying to save me some money, but please stop harping on about not needing pcie 3.0. i don't need SLI either. but i enjoy pushing my rig to the limits by modding skyrim with ultra high res textures and trying to recreate the equivalent of Helm's Deep or Battle of Pelannor Fields in the middle of crazy thunderstorm blizzards.

[removed]

 

[Knufire]

If you don't have a good reason to buy something, then you don't have a good reason. And if you buy it anyway, then you're just irresponsible with your money, which is your own problem. Hopefully it works out for you when all that money is suddenly gone.

Credit to Anandtech for the graphs.

 

[TerranBrackiatt]

well, now i understand why this comment was made... and i agree with it:

-Please keep the subsequent discussion civil. Nobody wants to hear about how its a waste of $'s etc. Whining destroys the purpose of this thread, which is to have some clean fun

i am also very much considering folding, too... since one of my co-workers recently died of cancer. so yes, every single advantage i can possibly build into my rig that might help the cause is worth it to me.