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What if linux came first?

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munky

Registered
Joined
Dec 9, 2002
Location
New York
The Story: Since 1973, the big OS around was UNIX. It was a tedious OS that required a great deal of knowledge, patience and passion! At the time, since UNIX was closed-source, it was expensive and only available for certain high-end systems. A new OS was needed, a OS that could be for the user not the company. DOS was born in 1981 as version 1.0. From this start, Gates had made DOS for IBM, only to eventualy form his own company. With that, Micro-soft (as it was origionally called) now known as Microsoft was created. Version 1.0 was released in 1985, only a few years before Linus's project.

Linus's inspiration came from two main things, the GNU project and MINIX. MINIX was created by Andrew S. Tanenbaum. He wrote a book and made an OS in an attempt to teach how an OS worked. From this, Linus began his project. Origionally with no true intentions just a small taks, Linus began Linux!

At the beginning of 1990's, here was the computer market: almost all DOS, the few graphic artists on Mac, and all large companies on Unix. The normal user stayed away from Mac because of its high price. Unix, was even more expensive then Mac, eventhough it was worth it. Do to lack of options, people chose to use Dos and eventually Windows. With that in mind, companies began to release their programs for the Windows OS. Games began on Dos and then Windows. Major companies were setting up their networks with the new Windows 3.11 with workgroups. The problem is, that people weren't thinking about what was truly the best tool for their purpose. Because computers started to come with Windows pre-installed, the average user accepted it and left it. They often complained of the dreaded Blue Screen of Death, but overall dealt with it. Not Linus, he was different, the father of the modern day "Geeks". Following the GNU project started by Richard Stallman, Linus believed in open-source. He released his origional kernel for Linux in mid September of 1991. That was around six years since the origional release of Windows 1.0. Windows had a great advantage, it was already old and people were beginning to get comfortable with pressing CTRL + ALT + DEL every ten seconds. As most of the world, change was not going to be easy. The true thing stopping users from switching over to Linux, was the lack of software. Linus was able to port (transfer) apps (applications) from Unix and MINIX over like the popular Pine (for email) and the GCC compiler. If the software distributors weren't making the apps for Linux, then people weren't going to use it.

That's the start of Linux, but there could be so much more. Imagine this if you willl; The GNU project and MINIX happened ten years earlier. Linus made his first version of Linux in 1981, ahead of Gates by four years.

At that point, Linux would be the "chosen" OS, not Windows. In my opinion, the world would've been better off! The world would not revolve around one OS as it does now. Very few large companies have any interest in producing products for Unix/Linux. I'm not asking them to make all their products open-source, I'm asking them to make bin versions, or versions that are pre-compiled and ready to run on Linux. The Linux and BSD OS's are so powerful, that they can emulate programs to run on it. Though, because the programs were initially written for Windows, they are no where nearly as stable on Windows. Saying "stable" and "Windows" in a sentence is just awkword!

The sad thing is, that my entire dream is just that, a dream. There is no way to revert back in time and tell Linus to make Linux before Windows comes out. Though, there are things one can do. If you are still reading this, either you are interested in the subject, or bored enough to read it. For either reason you still can help. It is important to remember that using a computer is more then just playing games, and more thne just word processing. People spend lifetime perfecting OS's. As it looks, Microsoft need more then a few lifetimes for perfection :). Linux is no where near perfect, but it's idea is. Because Linux is open-source, users can get the source at their request. A large advantage to Linux over other OS's, is that if you find a problem, or have a request; if you write it up it will most likely be put in the OS. Linux receives so many bugs and comments etc..that Linux has to announce a cut-off date for versions. There are many other advantages to Linux and BSD other then stability. When a programmer make an app, he/she may need to use environmental variables; such as calling up the OS's print dialog, or rebooting the computer. The problem with closed-source is that the programmers are not given the "how" and "where" these parts of the OS are. In Linux, a programmer knows every part of the source they want, making apps more efficent and easier for the programmer. All in all, the open-source community has so much more power over the closed-source community. There is NO reason as to why the world would use Windows over a Linux distro. Some say that Linux/BSD are too difficult, they think that Linux/BSD is just a command line OS. Many have no idea that XFree86 (The Linux/BSD/UNIX GUI) exists! Personally, I find KDE, or Window Maker a lot easier then that of the Windows GUI. The fact that you have complete control over the GUI makes it better. The funny thing, is that a Windows user can only come up with a few reasons why they wont switch. I'm going to list the reasons, then list a response to give them.

My programs won't work on it.
Response: As long as its not a game, you tell me the program, I will find you the Linux/BSD alternative. If I can't, I bet I could get it to work on Wine.

Its too hard to install.
Response: Really? I never had a problem. I popped in the Mandrake disc, and well...I can read so it wasn't that hard. Was that stopping you?

Other people use the computer, I don't want to screw everything up.
Response: Ah...you really don't know? When you turn the computer, a little midgit sits in there and tells the computer to boot Windows. If you pay him off, when you start the computer he'll give you options whether to boot Windows or Linux. This is called Dual-Booting :)


Well, to sum this up. I am saddened by the outcome of the computer age. In my humble opinion, any Geek could have accomplished what Gates did. If you ask them, they won't. He was a thief, and advertiser. He didn't care about what he was doing, or who he stepped on, as long as there was money. As you now know, Linus had NO intentions of making a profit. In fact, he is not living in fame and forture, just an average guy (that happens to be a G-d for Geeks). In the end, I ask you to think about one thing when you are about to buy a computer, or the new version of Windows: Is this really better, just because it's more expensive?! The answer is no, It's more expensive because it was there first, Windows is against the open-source community and Gates even feels that the open-source community can be considered a serious threat to Windows. We the open-source community, do our best to make Gates feel as unpleasent as possible!
 
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munky said:
DOS was born in 1981 as version 1.0. From this start, Gates had made DOS for IBM,


Gates never made DOS for IBM in fact Microsoft only bought the original 86-DOS code that became PC-DOS for the IBM-PC. DOS was not developed originally by the Microsoft group. Bill Gates (in his book The Road Ahead, 1995) recognizes Tim Paterson as the father of DOS. Paterson's version is called 86-DOS which was designed for the 8086 Intel processor, for the Seattle Computer Products. 86-DOS is referred to as QDOS (Quick and Dirty Operating System), which contained about 4,000 lines of assembler language code.

DOS was first marketed by IBM as PC-DOS with the original IBM Personal Computer on August 1981. IBM originally used the acronym DOS in the early 1960’s for their disk operating system for the 360 series computers
 
munky said:
Well, to sum this up. I am saddened by the outcome of the computer age. In my humble opinion, any Geek could have accomplished what Gates did. If you ask them, they won't. He was a thief, and advertiser. He didn't care about what he was doing, or who he stepped on, as long as there was money. As you now know, Linus had NO intentions of making a profit. In fact, he is not living in fame and forture, just an average guy (that happens to be a G-d for Geeks). In the end, I ask you to think about one thing when you are about to buy a computer, or the new version of Windows: Is this really better, just because it's more expensive?! The answer is no, It's more expensive because it was there first, Windows is against the open-source community and Gates even feels that the open-source community can be considered a serious threat to Windows. We the open-source community, do our best to make Gates feel as unpleasent as possible!

Even if Linux had been developed a few years previously I personally doubt that the outcome would be any different an example of this is the failed IBM Operating Systems.. OS2 and OS2Warp which anyone old enough to remember will gladly tell you was a great deal more stable and faster than what Microsoft had to offer at that time.
Windows did not beat OS2warp because it was more stable, because it was cheaper, because it was faster or for that matter because it was released earlier. Windows won because it was marketed with total brillance, which continues to this very day.
Microsoft continue to sell by the box load Operating Systems and applications which do nothing more for the user than the previous version.. who knows what Office XP does more than Office2000 ???..In real terms is there anything that XP does which can not be achieved with Win2000 and a few applications ? .. yet we continue to buy it.. WHY ??? ...consumer need does not drive this, it is marketing and mis-information.. in simple terms making us need and want the latest MS offering and this is why MS wins !!

[X-Files Type Thought]
Perhaps it is marketing which prevents MS from getting any software right, could bugs and insecuritys be built in so that the latest release can have these fixed allowing a hyped up press release with comments like "this is the most secure, most stable yet".. ??? :rolleyes:
[/X-Files Type Thought]
 
Thanks for the fact corrections...I love looking like I don't know what I'm talking about :(. Yes, yes I know Gates didn't write DOS, but the fact is I don't care :). I wrote that article just to give people something to think about, instead of giving back any positive contribution, all you do is correct me. If you are going to do so, remark about the initial though of the article like UnseenMenace did.
 
Saying "stable" and "Windows" in a sentence is just awkword!

I would like to add "inexperienced user " into that sentance - used properly Windows is realiable. I personally run 2 machines with Windows (2000 and 2003 Enterprise Server, both under continuous heavy load). 2000 will occasionally "crash" due to my impatience (I can't be bothered waiting for it to complete a complex task so I'll reset instead), while the only reason the 2003 machine crashed (or any of the software) was that once a memory module worked it's way loose - if anyone want's to blame that on Microsoft they're welcome to.

I'm not saying that Windows is perfect, or that linux is rubbish - my third machine is running linux and I'm very happy with it. What I am saying is "horses for courses" - if in 1990 my dad had brought home that PC with a linux operating system on it, I'm sure I wouldn't be involved in computers to the same extent I am now. DOS was incredibly simple, denying access to the heart of the operating system. That mean I had free reign in terms of what I could do when it came to catering for the peculiar memory requirements of my latest game. Once I had become confident with that I played with Windows (3.1 at the time) and learnt problem solving skills - not how to fix problems exactly, but how to get it to behave the way I wanted. Step my step, I've leant how a PC works. Linux is less of a step by step OS. You can't give it to an ignorant user and let them get on with it. It doesn't make is any the worse an operating system, just one suited for different tasks.

I will admit I have only started using Linux recently, and am still fairly new at it, but I'm learning. I'm certain that learning would be many times more difficult than if I didn't have the experience of using MS products all these years.

Personally, I find KDE, or Window Maker a lot easier then that of the Windows GUI. The fact that you have complete control over the GUI makes it better.

The myths about OS's goes both ways - there is nothing in the Windows GUI that isn't modifiable. The difference is that because there are far more 'casual' Windows users, people don't think to ask. Because of that GUI's aren't changed very often, and the myth persists. Personally I find the Windows GUI very easy to use, with small modifications to suit the way I work. Even the gripe about MS being money-hungry I can live with. BG is an prime example of what someone can achieve in your American Dream - your culture is as much to blame as ol' Bill.

In short I think things have worked out pretty well - we have the ease of use of Windows, and the power of UNIX based systems. Use them appropriately and your on to a winner.

Oh, and I have another reason for you to list/answer:
"Everything I want it to do it already does, fast enough and reliably enough, in a way I can understand it."
 
BTW "I personally run 2 machines with Windows (2000 and 2003 Enterprise Server" If that is the same as 2003 .Net, I didn't even know that it was available yet. If thats not it what is it...if it is :) how is it in comparison to the original (2000 Server which I run)
 
I have to be honest I'm confused with the naming of this OS range - MS themselves are quoted as using .Net, 2003, and .Net 2003. But yes it's the Enterprise version of the same OS. I'm not sure if it's released yet either. There version I am using is considered a stable beta, almost a gamma if you will. I got it from a client of mine who was unwilling to spend the time replacing his systems with a new OS so soon after upgrading to 2k Server, especially as it wasn't supported yet. He sold it to me in return for some minor modifications to the work I was doing for him (all quoted and above bored I hasten to add - I have a legal site licence for it.)

There are a few minor changes of note - it uses the XP style GUI, which I immediatly got rid of (XP is my most hated OS after the Macs). IIS6 is now included, as is the latest version of remote desktop connection (previously refered to as terminal services I believe). The wizard system is actually useful, more directing you in the right place to look for a component, rather than telling you how you want it set up or doing it for you. There are a few other tools that have been updated or make a new appearance. It's better than 2k Server, but not so much that I wouldn't have got it if it hadn't been for £20 worth of work.
 
As I say a client on mine was offered a copy and site licence for testing. He said, OK, never being one to look a gift horse in the mouth, but didn't really want to use it. I was just completing some work for him, and he wanted to make some additions to the original quote. I noticed his 2003 licence, basically said "wow", and he suggested it as payment for the extra work. I'm quite happy with the situation really.
 
munky said:
My programs won't work on it.
Response: As long as its not a game, you tell me the program, I will find you the Linux/BSD alternative. If I can't, I bet I could get it to work on Wine.
Heh, yes and no. Most are simply used to using what they have been for years.
munky said:
Its too hard to install.
Response: Really? I never had a problem. I popped in the Mandrake disc, and well...I can read so it wasn't that hard. Was that stopping you?
As for this, sorry man, I am not computer stupid, I know my way around decently. However, nearly every single time I even think of trying out Linux in any of its flavors, I get severely ticked off and just end up formatting and going back to M$.
I have tried RH, Mandrake, SuSe just off the top of my head. Many times in several different machines. There is always something that makes it pretty much worthless for me to continue, so I go back.
I decided once again just the other night to give it another go. I installed Mandrake 9.1 I think it was? I was running it for about 2 hours before I went to bed. Its still there, but if I cant do the things I like to do on it, odds are within the week Itll be gone.
Things inside linux are just not easy to do if your not used to it.

Im so wanting to mess with it and learn it, but I can only do so much before I just loose my temper with it and cant keep going. Then, when trying to get help, and you find none, your screwed even more.
I have been helped a few different times here, but most of the time folks just end up not knowing what to do to help, or cant.

As another reason/note why some have problems using linux. On my computer, when I am at it, I want to run several programs at once, heck, quite a few actually. Some of these, I cant, or havent been able to figure out how to get them going.
My computer is my TV, my Radio, everything.
Now, when I want to listen, but the drivers arent installed, or I cant read that drive where the MP3's are at, what now? Screwed , glued and tattooed. And guess what? M$ here I come.
However unfortunate that is in its own right.
 
Re: Re: What if linux came first?

IFMU said:

As for this, sorry man, I am not computer stupid, I know my way around decently. However, nearly every single time I even think of trying out Linux in any of its flavors, I get severely ticked off and just end up formatting and going back to M$.
I have tried RH, Mandrake, SuSe just off the top of my head. Many times in several different machines. There is always something that makes it pretty much worthless for me to continue, so I go back.
I decided once again just the other night to give it another go. I installed Mandrake 9.1 I think it was? I was running it for about 2 hours before I went to bed. Its still there, but if I cant do the things I like to do on it, odds are within the week Itll be gone.
[/size]

What is it you're looking to do? There is quite a large amount of Open Source Software, and I'm sure you will be able to find a program to satisfy most of your needs. You can start by looking at http://sourceforge.net and www.freshmeat.net . Most programs come with extensive documentation, either right in the package, or on their website. If you still need help after reading the documentation, there are other resources, such as this forum, where you'll be able to get your question answered.

It seems that the average computer user has divorced themselves from the command line, and god forbid their hand should ever leave the trusty mouse. Currently, with Linux you will eventually be forced to use the command prompt, for one thing or another. Installation of drivers comes to mind. At least amoung people that I know, the use of the command line is one of the things that tend to turn people off from Linux. Although this is unforunate, as the command line is a very powerful tool, thats just the way it is.

From my brief experience with Suse, it seems like that makers of that distro had succeed, at least partly, in the creation of a graphical "control panel" that would significantly reduce the number of tasks that would have previously been accomplished via the command line and the editing of config files. Some distros have also attempted to create GUIs of the management of programs installed, as well. I think we can view these are steps forward, towards a Linux thats accessible to the average person.

For those that have problems with Linux, my best advice I can give is to give it time and patience. If you have trouble, its best to leave it alone for a day or so, and come back later. Getting frusterated is OK, but if you wipe your install and go back to MS because of your frusteration, you're wasting your time. Stick with it, and not only will your problems get solved, you might actually learn something.
 
As much as I like linux I dont see that much wrong with windows. Its easy to install programs, and normally these programs work the first time and dont require you to compile them or download other programs (dependencies) for them to work.

One thing I disagree with is the notion that linux is just as good as windows....you just have to stop playing new 3d games. If you like playing games, well I guess youre screwed. Its great otherwise:rolleyes: . That said I have been very impressed with UT, and QuakeIII in Linux also newer games like RTCW, UT2003, and several others have been released. If you want linux games to become more popular then buy linux ports. Show the game companies that there is a market for their games.

As for the command line, I love it. There is just something so manly and efficient about it lol. But for some reason everytime I try linux something messes up. This time for example Wine or Winex would not install. And no matter how much assistance I got the problem remains. I couldnt get xine to work either because I was missing some c++ libraries. I dont think I should have to learn how to use a compiler just so I can watch videos. That is what is stopping Linux from becoming mainstream.

Dont get me wrong though. Progress is being made. RPM packaging is beautiful. Very much like an exe if you can find the required dependencies. The problem is that many programs expect you to compile yourself.

Anyways, the reasons I still dual boot and occasionally format my linux partition:

-I am a gamer. You can take the child out the game, but you cant take the game out the child.

-Difficulty installing programs. I dont mind compiling or using command line. For some reason however eerytime I try to compile something some **** goes wrong. It really ****es me off.

Thats basically it. Other than those two things I like Linux. If I could get wine or winex to work im sure my opinion of linux would be much higher.
 
I totally agree with you, munky, if Linux had been started prior to Window$... Linux would be in the same position Microcrap is in now... and probably waaaay better by now. It certainly wouldn't cost $300 for a decent OS (and you could still DL it for free). If all the programmers who been making junk for Window$ were working on Linux ... Window$ wouldn't compete at all!

The ONLY thing I use Microcrap for is to play games on and surf the net. Linux works much better, in my opinion, doing everything else (even the net part). Anyone try to tell you or me that Window$ is stable and secure should live a week in my life...

For an example:

I was trying to simply format a small harddrive in Window$ 2000 Pro ( seagate 4.3 GB) and it wouldn't allow me to, the pc locked up after a couple attempts (the Harddrive works fine, btw) so I rebooted and it corrupted Window$ to the point of being unable to reboot! That's stability for ya! A $300 OS at it's best! And while I'm talking 'bout it, I don't see any advantage to running NT file system over the FAT32... it's just as crappy.

I love having to reboot my pc every time I change something (window$).

Would you like for me to go on and on about Window$ or do you get the idea?

I have installed about 6 different versions of Linux into 7 different pcs ranging from 120 Mhz pentium to 366 AMD socket 7 (on an Acer Motherboard) to 550 Mhz socket 7(on a PcChips motherboard) to Athlon XP 1800+ (on a Aopen motherboard) to Athlon XP 2000+ on my current system(see sig)... plus a couple other systems I don't remember what boards they had. All with ease and minimal of trouble. Typically everything works fine.

Window$ on the other hand... I have a stack of disks that have to be installed AFTER I install the OS to get it to run right. Got one for my keyboard, my mouse, my AGP card, CD-RW drive, my quick cam, my printer, ethernet card, plus my motherboard drivers... all of this AFTER I just put on the OS!
Linux, everything works and is detected in the installation, granted, I can't play EVO 4X4 on Linux but that's what I have Wincrap for! I only play a few games on Window$ (C&C series, EVO, Starcraft, Driver) but I spent quite a bit of Ca$h on them so I will dualboot... but my main games are on Playstation 2... if prefer my 32" television and my 300 watt theatre sound if I want to do some real gaming... :> })

I don't buy Window$ anymore... had window$ 98 SE for a long time now and got window$ 2000 Pro from a friend... I have no need for an OS that requires a minimum of 256 MB ram to run well (window$ XP)... I can run Mandrake on 64 MB without a problem (kids running it now). The kids love Linux because of the cool games it comes with... snake race, frozen bubble, etc (the list really is long)... what does window$ give ya? solitaire, minesweeper, hearts? Junk... I love playing minesweeper for hours! (ya right)

The excuse... 'it's harder to use' is just because you prefer to reboot and carry 10 disks to get your computer running... You don't want to think back to the days when 3.1 was out and you were trying to figure out where the devil they put everything to use... think about it... if you NEVER used window$... there was no such thing as window$... would linux really be all that difficult? A lot of the commands are very similar to DOS, if you use the command line at all, and some of them are so simple they are like no-brainers... (logout, reboot, exit, halt, etc, etc) tough stuff. Not, to be confuse with compiling and the like, which can be quite the $$%%, but at least you CAN do it... But what end-user uses the command line? KDE does everything window$ wants to and more!

Maaaan, you want a program to burn disks? DL it! It's free, for dernssakes! try that in window$... the $ is there for a reason... you are paying for it!
 
After all that I just said in the previous post...

I don't understand why ya'll having so much trouble with Linux!!! I almost NEVER have any problems with all the pcs I've put it in...

I don't use the command line... probably used it like 4 or 5 times, messing around with it for no particular reason but to learn. I install programs all the time with RPMs... if you use an up to date package (matching your distro) then u shouldn't run into dependency problems too often.

I eqaute Linux to like trying to convert the USA to the metric system... It's actually easier... but we don't want to be bothered to figure it out.
 
I love the M$ Vs. Linux debates.. I was almost banned for spreading the gospel in the debates forum awhile back... People cannot handle the fact that they use a inferior OS,and they don't want to hear it....

It is plain and simple. With the advances that Linux has made in the last year or two, any person that actually knows anything other than M$ Mouse can install and run Linux.

I also use my computer for everything, Radio,TV, game server, email server, host my own web page, etc.....

People are simpy to lazy to learn to use linux. As for everyday computing, you insert the cd and hit "install" thats how hard my mandrake system was to install. Who cannot do that?

Oh and Munky, you binary sig says munkys.com :)
 
clash said:
I love the M$ Vs. Linux debates.. I was almost banned for spreading the gospel in the debates forum awhile back... People cannot handle the fact that they use a inferior OS,and they don't want to hear it....

It is plain and simple. With the advances that Linux has made in the last year or two, any person that actually knows anything other than M$ Mouse can install and run Linux.

I also use my computer for everything, Radio,TV, game server, email server, host my own web page, etc.....

People are simpy to lazy to learn to use linux. As for everyday computing, you insert the cd and hit "install" thats how hard my mandrake system was to install. Who cannot do that?

Oh and Munky, you binary sig says munkys.com :)

Change is scary, even if it's not a difficult change to make. Linux is also defficient in games, which is a significant factor.
Telling people that their OS is inferior will only put them on the defensive. It doesn't matter if their OS is inferior (I'm not saying anything either way), it matters if it's good enough. If it is, then they've got no reason to switch, and Linux zealots will only annoy them and drive them away. If it's not, they'll come to us of their own accord.
As people who want to spread Linux, the best option we have isn't to flame windows users. Our best option is to make sure that they know that Linux is an option. Then when windows becomes unacceptable and recovering windows users come to us, we can show them what Linux is really like.


BTW, please be careful with decoding binary. Last time that happened, we ended up seeing who could post a binary message with the most levels of ascii -> binary conversion. I don't think that anyone wants that. :D
 
I think the beauty of the whole thing is... you can have both! Dual boot... it's the best thing around... feel like playing some games? Boot to Window$... feel like learning something about another OS that is fast becoming the replacement for 'that other OS'... boot Linux!

It will be a long time before I get rid of Window$ completely but I actually would rather it be on it's own HDD or maybe a PC devoted just to games(can't afford another PC, yet)... Window$ corrupts so very easily... especially when overclocking... push it too far and guess what, you gotta install some software again! Or, even worse, you have to reinstall Window$ completely... in which case it usually overtakes the whole HDD (window$ 98) and you lose Linux too (Grrrrr!).

Both OS's have their strengths and weaknesses.. it just so happens Linux is improving fast and is free... while window$ is not improving very much and co$t$ big buck$!
 
funnyperson1 said:
One thing I disagree with is the notion that linux is just as good as windows....you just have to stop playing new 3d games. If you like playing games, well I guess youre screwed. Its great otherwise:rolleyes: .

By your statement it would be fair to suggest that you also consider an X-BOX or PS2 to be better than a PC. However now I expect that you would inform me that these are totally different machines which is true also regarding the differences in Operating Systems...
It seems strange to me that people make statements regarding how good Linux is based on its ability to play games, however If a Linux user made a similar statement regarding the quality of Windows by saying for example.. " One thing I disagree with is the notion that Windows is just as good as Linux... you just have to stop developing applications or buy more expensive software and compilers. If you like developing applications, well I guess you're screwed. Its great otherwise " ...it would be rightfully pointed out that this only points out major differences between the system and not providing facts that show one is better than the other.

The reason that Linux fails at games I believe is simply because the user does not wish to have to compile games and hardware to run, we want to 'plug and play' which is why even in this age of widespread PC ownership game systems like the X-box and PS2 continue to sell by the truck load.. This percieved problem has more to do with the 'construction' of Linux rather than its ability to play games imho
 
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