What UPS (battery backup) do you use and what is hooked to it?

I'm rolling a DIY setup; Rack-mount APC Smart-UPS 3000 (3kVA, 2.25kW) connected to 4x sealed deep-cycle marine batteries @ 105Ah each.

Xaeryan said:

On the topic of UPS, what about for simple power flashes or short outages? I get these frequently, and I really only need enough time to turn my computer off in case the power stays off longer than a few minutes. Would the cheaper units work for this (possible more frequent battery replacement aside)?

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A less expensive unit would suffice, as long as it's rated to hold the power load of your equipment. I'd suggest obtaining a slightly larger and/or more expensive one than necessary, so that the UPS rectifier ("charger") can keep the batteries topped off from the constant outages.

Xaeryan said:

Also, do UPS have any effect in increasing stability, or is the PSU entirely responsible for storing and stabilizing electricity to all components?

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Generally speaking, yes, a UPS has an effect on increasing stability as far as power is concerned. However a UPS is *not* a replacement for a surge suppressor, as that's not what they're designed for. You'll still want to put a high-quality surge suppressor in front of your UPS.
The PSU should be fed the most clean, stable power that you can provide it. It's job is definitely *not* to stabilize sags/surges in power; instead, it's primary function is to convert (rectify) AC power to DC power.

Hope that answers you question,
-JT

Jmtyra said:

Hope that answers you question,
-JT

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Very much so, but also leads to more questions. ;-)

So if I was more interested in stability, I'd be better off looking at a Surge Suppresor? I thought UPS offer that functionality, or is that not synonymous with "surge protection" they offer? (And I can't remember from my last one, does the battery side of most UPS also offer said surge protection). I guess I always had the vision in my head that the UPS can act as a sort of Line Conditioner - i.e. if the outlet voltage drops below or raises above what is being drawn from the devices, the UPS and its battery can keep it stable.

Also, it looks like some UPS might not handle flickers like I sometimes get!? From the Newegg reviews of the CyberPower CPS1500AVR:

Cons: During t-storms (in FL), the utility service has a tendency to 'flicker' - where it's not completely out, but not at full 120V either. When the power drops off instantly, the UPS works great. But during the flickering, the batteries don't kick in fast enough, and PC's all turn off.

Other Thoughts: I contacted CyberPower asking if there was a way to increase the switching sensitivity, so the batteries would kick in immediately, and here is their comment:

"There isn't a way to adjust the sensitivity. Flickers can be a problem because the ups is in the process of switching to battery when the flickers. If this is a persistent power condition the best solution is to switch to an online type UPS that has no switchover time when a power loss occurs. The OL models we make are online type. "

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Xaeryan said:

Very much so, but also leads to more questions. ;-)

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That's what the forums are for!

Xaeryan said:

So if I was more interested in stability, I'd be better off looking at a Surge Suppresor? I thought UPS offer that functionality, or is that not synonymous with "surge protection" they offer? (And I can't remember from my last one, does the battery side of most UPS also offer said surge protection). I guess I always had the vision in my head that the UPS can act as a sort of Line Conditioner - i.e. if the outlet voltage drops below or raises above what is being drawn from the devices, the UPS and its battery can keep it stable.

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Disclaimer: Just to keep me honest, I'm continuing with the presumption that we're speaking about stability in terms of power, not in terms of computer stability. While the former can directly affect the latter, they are two very different conversations.

Unfortunately, it's not a simple Yes/No question. I'll elaborate.
The primary function of a UPS (Uninterruptible Power Supply) is to provide constant power, not necessarily clean power. Line Conditioners are built to provide clean power, whether the voltage goes up or down. However, they have no battery like a UPS, thus they cannot provide uninterrupted power. Similar to their name, Surge Suppressors do one thing and one thing only: suppress surges. They don't provide protection against power sags or complete power outages.

Whew! OK -- so, going back to your question; yes, a UPS will provide some surge suppression, but not much. Look on Newegg at the joule rating of a random $20 surge suppressor, and compare it to that of a random $200 (yes, two-hundred) UPS. Post a reply with your findings and your surprise.

I'll close with this: you get what you pay for when it comes to power equipment. Personally, I use this device in conjunction with my DIY UPS, and I have zero problems. However, it wasn't cheap...but it's a hell of a lot cheaper than replacing all of the hardware attached to it. Plus, I can rest easy knowing that all of my equipment is protected.

Xaeryan said:

Also, it looks like some UPS might not handle flickers like I sometimes get!?

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The very low-end/cheap UPS units don't. As in, those that are offline/standby only. At minimum, you'll want a line-interactive UPS, and at best, you'll want an online UPS. Good ol' wikipedia has a decent overview of the different types of UPS(es).

Jmtyra beat me to the punch with the same essential answers...

hafa said:

Jmtyra beat me to the punch with the same essential answers...

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Only this time, my friend...you're usually pretty quick on the reply.

Xaeryan said:

On the topic of UPS, what about for simple power flashes or short outages? I get these frequently, and I really only need enough time to turn my computer off in case the power stays off longer than a few minutes. Would the cheaper units work for this (possible more frequent battery replacement aside)?

Also, do UPS have any effect in increasing stability, or is the PSU entirely responsible for storing and stabilizing electricity to all components?

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You need a full UPS IMHO. "Quick breaks" also include spikes. So you need a surge protector. You need a 'Interactive' UPS that never disconnects the batteries. So even a mini dropoff is auto controlled by the UPS. You have poor power in your area, spikes, dropoff, and I'm sure the line voltage isn't that good either.

I'm not an expert, but this one has everything you need. I have it, you need to go up the thread and read more, figure your full wattage you pull, oversize the UPS by 20% over that in WATTAGE, forget the VA number.
A UPS that I use has line conditioning, pretty high joule rating, and battery back up. You need batteries to keep the voltage correct, and olny the stored energy in the batteries can do that with your 'breaks'.


Cyberpower

http://www.cyberpowersystems.com/products/ups-systems/adaptive-sinewave-series/CP1500PFCLCD.html



Maybe a 900VA will do. You got dirty power, you need something if you value your PC.

Jmtyra can verify. He's wayy more qualified at this than I am.

Conumdrum said:

You got dirty power, you need something if you value your PC.

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Conumdrum just hit the nail on the head, and I totally agree.

I'd still recommend placing a surge suppressor between your power source (wall socket) and the UPS, regardless of which UPS you choose to purchase. The one Conumdrum recommended has a surge rating of ~1k joules, while a $25 surge suppressor will give you ~4k joules of protection. Bump up to a $40 surge suppressor, and you can get ~7k joules of protection.

The question isn't about how 'good' or 'bad' the surge rating is on the UPS, since that's not what their primary function is. Instead, think about how much it would cost to replace all of your connected computer equipment. Is it worth skimping out on a $25 or $40 surge suppressor? Especially considering you'll be spending $150 ~ $250 for a decent UPS anyway?

Xaeryan said:

So if I was more interested in stability, I'd be better off looking at a Surge Suppresor? I thought UPS offer that functionality, or is that not synonymous with "surge protection" they offer?

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They always include surge protection, but the quality varies, as it does with regular surge protectors. Better protection includes a choke-capacitor line filter in addition to the usual MOV crowbars, which will block surges too low in voltage to trigger the MOVs and will prevent some computer crashes. For example, I have a laser printer and computer plugged into the same AC wall outlet. When the computer is connected directly to the outlet or through a Belkin 375VA backup, which has no line filter, it crashes whenever the laser printer turns on, but that doesn't happen if I instead use an APC backup, which does have a line filter. The Belkin backup itself crashes from the surge.

Conumdrum said:

The issue is, what wattage does your system pull from the wall? Are you heavily overclocked?

Looking at your sig your about 500 watts I'd say.

My rig below, with testing loads on the CPU and GPU at the same time is 750 watts or so. You want to be at 80% max. So mine is good for 900 watts, I run at 750, which is okay. I rarely run at full load, only for a few hours at a time for testing after a build etc.

My I have my monitors and PC plugged into the battery backup portion, rest on the surge only connectors.

So, look at the wattage the PC uses, go a bit bigger than that. The VA reading is all nice and that, but what matters is the wattage it can handle.

I have this one, you'd be fine with one a bit less wattage.

http://www.cyberpowersystems.com/products/ups-systems/adaptive-sinewave-series/CP1500PFCLCD.html

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Sorry for taking so long to reply, but yes that is exactly the issue. I just got them so cheap that I was hoping my rig didn't pull too much, but after testing for about 5 min I found that it did. I'm going to get a higher capacity apc or cyberpower when I've got the money. What I really need is a decen rack mount ups that doesn't cost an arm and a leg.

Any other good brands other than cyberpower and apc? I've read all over the place that those seem to be the best. I've always used apc in home and when I was an admin many years ago.

EDIT: Since I need a rackmount for the server I'm going to need a kill-a-watt to find out what capacity I'll need. Anyone know where to get one cheap?

PanteraGSTK said:

What I really need is a decen rack mount ups that doesn't cost an arm and a leg.

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Try Craig's List for your area. Many businesses will list their older hardware when they update their equipment. You could get a good deal on a UPS with dead batteries, and then retrofit or purchase batteries for it.

PanteraGSTK said:

Any other good brands other than cyberpower and apc? I've read all over the place that those seem to be the best. I've always used apc in home and when I was an admin many years ago.

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Depends more on the quality/price of the UPS. A cheap, low-end UPS of any brand will still suck. Having said that, I'd go with an enterprise 'class' UPS from Emerson (Liebert) or APC.

PanteraGSTK said:

EDIT: Since I need a rackmount for the server I'm going to need a kill-a-watt to find out what capacity I'll need. Anyone know where to get one cheap?

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OT, but I wouldn't bother with a kill-a-watt at all, instead I'd use a DMM and a little math to obtain an exact measurement. IMO, they suck. Having said that, Newegg and Amazon usually have them for cheap.

Jmtyra said:

Try Craig's List for your area. Many businesses will list their older hardware when they update their equipment. You could get a good deal on a UPS with dead batteries, and then retrofit or purchase batteries for it.


Depends more on the quality/price of the UPS. A cheap, low-end UPS of any brand will still suck. Having said that, I'd go with an enterprise 'class' UPS from Emerson (Liebert) or APC.


OT, but I wouldn't bother with a kill-a-watt at all, instead I'd use a DMM and a little math to obtain an exact measurement. IMO, they suck. Having said that, Newegg and Amazon usually have them for cheap.

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I just wanted a new gadget. I guess I'll have to bust out the DMM.

I'm looking at some of the Smart-Ups series. They look pretty good for the money. Have any experience with that series?

EDIT: That is an entry level UPS. I think this one would be more along the lines of what I'll need.

PanteraGSTK said:

I think this one would be more along the lines of what I'll need.

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That's the same product line that I use at home, although the one you linked is newer. Solid, very heavy, and uses a sine wave for it's waveform type instead of a 'simulated' sine wave like the cheap/crappy UPSs do.

Drop a solid surge suppressor in front of that and you're good to go.

Jmtyra said:

That's the same product line that I use at home, although the one you linked is newer. Solid, very heavy, and uses a sine wave for it's waveform type instead of a 'simulated' sine wave like the cheap/crappy UPSs do.

Drop a solid surge suppressor in front of that and you're good to go.

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What do you think a solid surge suppressor is? Tripp-lite? All the ones I want cost too much. I'd love to get a high end Furman, but 2k is a bit much. I'd use it for my audio system anyway.

PanteraGSTK said:

What do you think a solid surge suppressor is?

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Jmtyra said:

I'd still recommend placing a surge suppressor between your power source (wall socket) and the UPS, regardless of which UPS you choose to purchase. The one Conumdrum recommended has a surge rating of ~1k joules, while a $25 surge suppressor will give you ~4k joules of protection. Bump up to a $40 surge suppressor, and you can get ~7k joules of protection.

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Jmtyra said:

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That's what I figured. Thanks.