Another interesting pump 12V dc

[UberBlue]

Hmmm, I'm really only interested in the power draw vs pumping power (water wattage) ratio. I find it pretty hard to trust shaft power ratings for most pumps. Give me something that I can actually measure, and that's the motor power input.

Good points.

get the .xls?

 

[Cathar]

Good points.

get the .xls?

Yes - thanks. I tip my hat to your Excel skillz.

Been playing with Gnuplot of late using Perl to munge the data around and feed it in, which seems to work out well. Halfway to having an interactive web page that allows you to pick bits and pieces and see what they will do.

 

[UberBlue]

Yes - thanks. I tip my hat to your Excel skillz.

Been playing with Gnuplot of late using Perl to munge the data around and feed it in, which seems to work out well. Halfway to having an interactive web page that allows you to pick bits and pieces and see what they will do.

Gnuplot and Perl are way over my head, but be careful how you present the web page your working on. I remember bringing up a similar idea, and others have to, at Procooling. I pretty much came away with a new orifice in my rear from a few of the heavy hitters over there.

I'm sure you don't need to hear it from me, but you've got enough clout to pull it off.

 

[Cathar]

Gnuplot and Perl are way over my head, but be careful how you present the web page your working on. I remember bringing up a similar idea, and others have to, at Procooling. I pretty much came away with a new orifice in my rear from a few of the heavy hitters over there.

I'm sure you don't need to hear it from me, but you've got enough clout to pull it off.

No, I don't intend to give a one place for all answers sort of thing. I'm more interested in plugging in well documented blocks, radiators and pumps and figuring out what the flow rate would be, and how close you are to a pump's BEP, and then provide links to the various flow/performance curves and let the users work it out from there. I don't want to get into the nasty situation of attempting to claim that the utility will give a one-size-fits number for performance.

 

[MoreGooder]

Hey Cathar, thanks for the great data.

By the way, what pump head did you choose for your D4? What criteria did you use to choose it?

Thanks!

 

[Cathar]

By the way, what pump head did you choose for your D4? What criteria did you use to choose it?

I chose the 3/4" OD fittings on the basis that pumps of this nature need to have as little restriction placed on the pump inlet as possible. The easier the wate can get in, the less noisy the pump and the better it will flow. I must say that the noise level will be of concern for 1/2" fitting buyers.

I was able to fit the 1/2" ID Clearflex/60 tubing over the 3/4" fittings by dipping the tubing ends in boiling water and using a pair of needle nose pliers to drag the tubing over the lip of the fittings. It was a very tight fit. The ID of the 3/4" fittings is about 13mm, so a pretty good match really for 1/2" ID tubing.

Pump performance will be reduced with 1/2" OD fittings on the pump, along with added noise.

 

[UberBlue]

I noticed you said the D4 had a 60mm fan type whine to it. I'm thinking a D4 with the bronze housing would reduce impeller noise because of the increased mass of the housing lowering the resonant frequency. Glue some heavy copper sinks to the motor and the noise might come under control.

Gah! Can't remember what bronze is an alloy of. Need to find the galvanic potential of it to see how it would fare in a copper/silver system.

 

[Cathar]

I noticed you said the D4 had a 60mm fan type whine to it. I'm thinking a D4 with the bronze housing would reduce impeller noise because of the increased mass of the housing lowering the resonant frequency. Glue some heavy copper sinks to the motor and the noise might come under control.

Gah! Can't remember what bronze is an alloy of. Need to find the galvanic potential of it to see how it would fare in a copper/silver system.

Indeed, that was pretty much my feedback to Laing - that they need some added mass around the pump to dampen the noise.

Bronze is a mix of copper (most significant), tin (next most significant), and maybe some zinc or lead. Like all alloys, there are a number of different sub-alloys, such as aluminium bronze, and so on. Bronze is almost completely galvanically unreactive with pure copper, sitting at about the same level as the 316 Stainless Steel that's used inside the D4 pumps.

Brass is primarily a mix of copper (>50%) and zinc (>35%).

 

[Cathar]

That's freakin AWSOME!

Okay, here's my take on a comparison of the Laing D4 @ 16V vs the Iwaki MD30-RZ (50Hz), and the Iwaki MD20-RZ (60Hz). Both the Iwaki's are considerably quieter though, and would have a longer life-span.

 

[UberBlue]

Not to shabby for such a tiny pump.

I've already got a 20RZ, so I personaly see no reason to run out and get one. Yet. Still wanna get a 12V motor for my 20 and what she can do.

 

[BillA]

. . . . . the Iwaki MD30-RZ (50Hz), and the Iwaki MD20-RZ (60Hz). Both the Iwaki's . . . . would have a longer life-span.
. . . . .

longer life-span based on what ?

be cool

 

[nikhsub1]

longer life-span based on what ?

be cool

I would assume Cathar meant that running the pump at 16v as opposed to 12V would shorten the lifespan over the Iwakis. Not a fair assumption?

 

[UberBlue]

I would assume Cathar meant that running the pump at 16v as opposed to 12V would shorten the lifespan over the Iwakis. Not a fair assumption?

The motors are rated for up to 24V.

 

[nikhsub1]

The motors are rated for up to 24V.

I did not know that. I guess the old saying about assumptions holds true

 

[felinusz]

My goodness, this pump hits pretty hard at 16V!

Is Danger Den is selling these fitted with Molex plugs, and aiming to compete with Swiftech? Not too mportant whether or not they're fitting them or not, but it would give insight into their 'plans' for the pump, which I'm interested in.

I'm wonderig if the noise can be dealt with in the manner you outlined UberBlue - wouldn't such weights interfere with the pump motor's operation?

Maybe I'm not getting your idea completely.

 

[BillA]

and this info is coming from . . . .
suggest using the vendor as this 24V stuff is wrong

be cool

 

[UberBlue]

and this info is coming from . . . .
suggest using the vendor as this 24V stuff is wrong

be cool

Liand D4 .pdf @ Liang.de It's in german, but the important parts can be picked out. On page 4 is the technical data. "Max voltage: 30V (applies to 12V and 24V pumps."

I belive they were designed to be used with solar cells, which would explain the wide voltage tolerance.

 

[Cathar]

The motors are rated for up to 24V.

I've communicated with Laing about my findings and this is a summary of the response.

The performance I am seeing is the result of a motor revision which affected the windings. Laing have verified that, within tolerable variances (+/- 3%), very similar results to my 12V based PQ curve that I forwarded to them.

I've gotten feedback from Laing about the 24V thing. They also sell 24V models, hence the stated 6-24V range on the web page, but the 12V specced pumps are actually rated for 6-12V. I've been over-volting it at 16V apparantly. The Laing engineer reckoned it would be okay to run it at 16V but this may cause the pump to eventually trip the thermal protection within the pump, but it is not going to cause immediate death or anything, and that life-span would possibly be affected. It would seem that the web-site doesn't go out of its way to clarify the volatge ranges for the 12 & 24V models.

I've since found that the officially stated MTBF is 10000hrs, but like most of these things when I spoke to the engineer I was told that life-span would typically be 40-50K hours (5-6yrs) in ideal environments.

They stated that one of the reasons for the noise is the brushless micro-controller in that it generates a square-wave rather than a sine-wave. They are revising the micro-controller for sine-wave operation which should eliminate some of the whine. They are also looking at added noise dampening material around the motor body.

Hope that answers some of the questions.

 

[geoffman]

They stated that one of the reasons for the noise is the brushless micro-controller in that it generates a square-wave rather than a sine-wave. They are revising the micro-controller for sine-wave operation which should eliminate some of the whine.

Users should realise if Laing do this it will result in a less powerful pump however.

 

[BeerHunter]

They are also looking at added noise dampening material around the motor body.

Good! I was worried about this on page 2-3... it's loud as fusk.


Selling outside the Classifieds is a BIG nono.