Any *REAL* use in wcooling chipset?

[squeakygeek]

Perhaps he uses the heatercores to raise the temps to help stop condensation or even freezing?

Who knows

Then he shouldn't be using a chiller.

Edit: and also, he stated that he uses the cores to cool the water to nearly ambient before entering the chillers. If he would even bother to measure the temperature of the coolant before and after the cores instead of just assuming how thermodynamics works, he would see the folly in his ways.

 

[MoonWolf]

Why has he disappeared?

 

[HiProfile]

I wish I had more time to post, I don't, so please go easy on ripping the fleash from my bones.

Please be constructive in finding a solution, rather than just point out the problem.

How can the second situation be better?

A)
After leaving the last 'heating element' (pump/block), it sheds a few deg. C (close to an ambient of around 25C) going through heater cores, then dropping more going though a chiller, then to the first block.

B)
After leaving the last 'heating element' (pump/block), it sheds a few deg. C going though a chiller, then to the first block.

How can situation A reduce temps less than situation B, or am I just reading everything too fast in myu haste to get to work?

 

[vonkaar]

Why has he disappeared?

Because it's the weekend and I don't live and die by OC forums...

I can't believe it... I leave for 4 or 5 months and suddenly people forget about all of my posts, research, contributions etc... I've always posted in this manner... do some research of your own and 'recall' what I've done for my system. I guess I'll explain anyway...

Back when I was testing things, I had 31 temperature probes throughout my test bench... multiple water-probes... pre-core, post-core... pre-chiller, post-chiller... pre/post pump etc. There were probes on the CPU, Ram, GPU&RAM, NB, PSU, 4 different ambient spots to find hotspots. My thermometer has datalogging capability (with a built-in printer) and I had the system running for 48 hour tests, logging data for each probe every 30 minutes. The resulting system was based on 5 different 48 hour tests to find the best possible cooling scenario.

I'll find the links if ya'll really want me to... a lot of the synopsis can be read in my 'chrome goat' link (that I'm oh so good at updating).

Cliff notes of the threads (by memory):

1. The chiller can cool room temperature water to about -5°. This is a mean temperature between multiple pump tests in both a closed and open loop. It draws approximately 550 watts of power. By itself (cascade->pump->chiller) I was not able to get a very high overclock. It was loud, my room was really really hot after a few hours. The chiller did not handle 'hot' water as easily as it handled the earlier test of ambient-temperature water in an open loop.

2. The heatercores went through the biggest changes.. I went with Chevette to Caprice to a pair of VW heatercores and finally ended up with a custom pair that Uberblue made for me. 5/8" inlet / outlet single-pass heatercores in a parallel setup. By themselves, they allowed for a superior overclock than the chiller alone. Without the chiller, I simply had a fairly high-end water-cooling loop. Cascade-SS, Iwaki 30rzt, 2-highflow-single-pass heatercores. I then started the tests to see how much help the chiller would be.

If you really really want me to go find the rolls of thermal-printer tape... scan them in... find pictures of the old test bench... I guess I can. I just wish that some of you would freaking remember me and my posts from yesteryear.

For now... ficticious numbers...

Heatload1: Cascade on a high heatsource, either my thermo-probe (fake CPU) or the actual motherboard. It raised the water temperatures to... uh... +3°. (obviously less on the MB) Each additional heatsource added a bit of heat to the water. This 'hot' water goes to the heatercores where it is cooled to 'almost' ambient room temperature. Standard water-cooling loop...

dangit, I don't want to dumb all of this down again... this is freaking frustrating...

Basically... the chiller isn't on all of the time. In fact, it wasn't on much at all towards the end, only on the "let's see how high I can get this..." days. For the most part, it was a standard loop. Initially, the water simply ran through the chiller block with the TECs turned off. I worried about flow, so I put a pair of valves on each side of the chiller (bleeding this was FUN). Don't think of the system as a 'chilled' system. I guess I can see why the colored-post my have been a bit confusing. Think of it as an every-day water-cooling loop, with the option of dropping an ice-cube in the water every ten minutes. Not a big deal... but it added enough cooling potential to justify using it... plus it was 'different'.

Well, sort of... if you bring up power-consumption and then talk about the phase-change crowd, I look rather stupid... but it was a fun experiment... something that I've not seen anyone do (besides Cathar with his original tec-chilling experiments)... most of the components were chromed, so it looked pretty...

alright... that's it.

Seriously, 6 months ago.. I was giving 'omg, how horrible -misinformation' in a competely facetious manner... and nobody whined. There were the seemingly 'weekly' threads about T-Line capping and I ALWAYS answered, "Capping your t-line is for pansies. I fill mine to the brim and live life on the edge." Anyone with common sense knew I was kidding... especially when I ended the post talking about a highly-mobile PC.. I got a few 'lols' and life continued. My VW 80hp to 450hp because of the gas-pedal analogy stands. NOT A BIG DEAL people.

Aaaand... thanks to the few of you who PMd me with, "I got it... " I appreciate the support in this l33t storm of adversity =p.

 

[vonkaar]

And, re-reading that I think I should add in that chiller on=HC fan off. HC-fans on = Chiller off. It's like a hybrid engine. Well sort of... the TECs took some time to start cooling... if I popped the fan off as soon as the chiller went on, I'd overheat... so there was a bit of a delay between it all...

Also...

Between my supposed abrasive comments (eh?) and Greenman's... I'm surprised that I've been labeled the bad guy by a few statements. "Wallow in ignorance?" Hell, I've not said that even in my old F@H taunting threads.

3rd edit:

And... now... re-re-reading the whole thread... it's sort of pissing me off. I really don't know why I came back to OC... I don't remember this sort of 'attack' being present in the old days. It's *very* disconcerting. I initially built this system to be different. I know what it takes to build a good 'standard' water-cooling loop. I've built many in the past. The chiller thing doesn't make sense on many levels, but it was a fun experiment. FUN. Hobby. Pastime. Experiment.

Sure, I called myself a demi-god. You folders should remember that I've been calling myself such things since day one. I'm 14th on the team... and my calling myself "Lo-Pan" and photoshopping Niks' dog in a finger-lazer beam never angered anyone. What the hell is wrong all of the sudden? I've never been 'attacked' like this and it's really making me reconsider returning. If this is the 'new' [H] then I don't want a part of it.

 

[rogerdugans]

Thank you for the further information vonkaar- and for the good example of how situations where controversy crop should be handled.
- with information and not by attacking personalities.

To tell the truth, I haven't looked at the chrome goat in a looooong time.
And with the faulty brain cells I have, I had forgotten any and all details of your system. At least I DID remember that you had done all kinds of stuff trying to figure it all out.

You have piqued my interest all over again, so I expect I will be going back to your project thread....

 

[squeakygeek]

Sure, I called myself a demi-god. You folders should remember that I've been calling myself such things since day one. I'm 14th on the team... and my calling myself "Lo-Pan" and photoshopping Niks' dog in a finger-lazer beam never angered anyone. What the hell is wrong all of the sudden? I've never been 'attacked' like this and it's really making me reconsider returning. If this is the 'new' [H] then I don't want a part of it.

That's an arrogant thing to say. If you've been saying arrogant things from day one, it doesn't make saying more arrogant things any less arrogant. Any 'attacks' you've received have been pretty mild so I wouldn't start a tantrum. If you're too good for ocforums then so be it.

 

[vonkaar]

I haven't been saying arrogant things since day one... I've been playing a 'god' persona when I taunt the other folders. I don't post answers to simple water-cooling equipment questions in that frame of mind. The whole 'demi-god' comment was to a 'friend' that *did* remember me.

This whole thread is freaking blown out of proportion by a bunch of touchy people. I've always been helpful... I've always had a sense of humor. I simply have not seen this type of arrogant attitude in my tenure at OC. I'll continue answering questions in the "3" forums that I hang out in (wc, alternative-modding and F@H)... I'll continue joking with people... I just hope I don't run into more of 'his' type.

I didn't say I'm too good for OC. I'm saying OC 'was' (and should still be) better than this. That's the reason why the adults play here and the kids play on [H]. We are supposed to respect each other. The attitudes in this thread are very reminiscent of what we find on [H]. As I said, if that's the norm - I don't want to be a part of it.

Aaaand, again... to you seniors that PM'd me with support... I'm going to stick it out. I just sincerely hope that we don't have this abrasive attitude in a majority of the posts. This whole thread has an incredibly negative feel... and nothing I said should justify that type of response.

 

[It_The_Cow]

This whole thread is freaking blown out of proportion...

I agree wholeheartedly agree with that. The fact of the matter is that this is the Internet. No one can tell if someone is being sarcastic or not unless they use the emoticons to designate some sort of humor. I personally haven't been around lately, and had no idea of your mannerisms on the forums. Considering you substatiated your claim that cooling your NB gained 620 MHz two times with no hint of sarcasm, I felt that you were intentionally trying to misinform people. I obviously misinterpreted your post. It happens.

 

[vonkaar]

Aaand, I take full blame for that. 6 months ago, people were familiar enough with my style of posting that smilies weren't necessary. I should have ended the post with at least a . SO... my fault.

 

[greenman100]

look

you said the water would be cooler, by your text and colors

if .57C is what you meant, so be it

the fact is, with those heatercores out of your loop, by all laws of physics, your loop WILL run cooler

just tired of the mis information spread by people with 500+ posts,

 

[greenman100]

vonkaar

this is the question

if you ran CPU-->NB--->GPU--->pump-->chiller-> pump---CPU

do you think loop temps would be higher or lower than

CPU-->NB--->GPU--->pump-->HC--->chiller-> pump---CPU

make sure you know what I'm asking

 

[vonkaar]

I've already covered the 'colored' post. I understand why it can be confusing. I was not trying to describe a cooling system in which the chiller constantly runs post heater-core. Heater-cores *would* be pointless in that manner. Misinformation != clarity. I've had enough with you insulting my intelligence. I worked hard to build a solid reputation on these forums and I've helped a lot of people in the process. I feel that I've given you a proper explanation in the previous posts. The second loop that you describe would gain no benefit from the chiller. As I said, the 'colored' post was mis-drawn. This supposed 'misinformation' would only be inferred by people looking to prove others wrong. The average user wouldn't take my post and think to spend $1000 on a TEC chiller to gain an additional overclock.

I can keep going back to try and figure out why I phrased the post in the manner I did; it wouldn't matter. I didn't know you and I guess I was trying to give you a dumb answer so as to avoid getting into a lengthy technical discussion. Your quest for intellectual elitism clearly wouldn't allow that.

My thermometer is accurate to the tenths. It was calibrated by engineers at the test & measurements company that I work for, Tucker Electronics. I use K-type thermocouples and custom 'shaved' T-line water-probes. The thermometer itself is a Omega 6600 on a 4000 series datalogger. I can take pictures if you would like. The 'fake CPU' is a Micro-Technical thermo-probe (model 1905) that can sustain temperatures of 250°. I rigged a simple copper / fiberglass (ghetto-insulation) mounting plate and used the mounting springs that Cathar provided to simulate adequate block pressure. It's not perfect and I couldn't create a completely enclosed environment, but I was ble to 'lap' the probe down to a pretty freaking smooth surface... creating a much better surface than an AMD die would allow. I was able to use this 'fake cpu' method, along with my huge temperature-logging setup to create a heatsource that would simulate potentially anything I would want to water-cool in my system, often in excess of 500w.

I shouldn't have to prove anything to you but your attitude would suggest otherwise. Post-count doesn't mean anything. Cathar and BillA probably have less than a thousand posts but nobody second guesses them based on their (affectionately-tabbed) nerd-celebrity. I may not have enjoyed as lofty a respectability as those two, but I would have considered myself with the more 'power' water-coolers on the forum. I'm not sure what you hope to prove in these posts... would you fill me in on that? It seems that outside your callous locution, we are in agreement. What else do you want?

 

[fafnir]

yeah, i have to stand by vonkaar on this one

a year ago he's helped me and a bunch of other people people quite a bit, and everyone back then was blind, save for the few select individuals




it was a community




i have to say he *does* post like this, one liners and all,

goes a long way back

way back then with me on a island of truth trying to ward off all the people and misinformation telling me that my direct-die watercooling was going to fail because water will "eat" the die

and then 3 month later it was still fine and then i got a maze 4 and a better cpu

ask thorilan

and where is he anyways?


_

 

[crimedog]

greenman I don't think you know what kind of chiller vonkaar has. I remeber the looong classified threads for these puppies, they're (if i remember correctly) 10 80w tecs wired up for 120v. It's a well insulated passaged cooled by the 10 tecs, and their hot sides are cooled by aluminum heatsinks and fans. If they were going full bore that would be 1000w+ of heat (800w of tec + the system). The room would heat up, and the temps would rise. If it were a phase change system, or if the tecs were water cooled (with rad outside) your points would be valid but it is not so.

Without knowing the history of this your posts are understandable, the color coded one is really silly. The flow rate must be huge with that pump further reducing the immediete temperature raises. People who believe that really hot water comes out of the cpu block and cool water comes out of the rad obviously aren't very serious watercoolers.

Project: Chrome Goat

I don't think your two personalities mesh very well, so hopefull this has been dropped?

OT: I watercool my NB because I can (and can put an 80w tec on it)

 

[MoonWolf]

vonkaar, I feel I owe you an apology for my comments, albeit I was just trying to figure out exactly what you meant by your posts. Nevertheless, sorry.

 

[greenman100]

As I said, the 'colored' post was mis-drawn.

that's what I wanted

This supposed 'misinformation' would only be inferred by people looking to prove others wrong. The average user wouldn't take my post and think to spend $1000 on a TEC chiller to gain an additional overclock.

so misinformation is ok as long as the average reader is ignorant?

I didn't know you and I guess I was trying to give you a dumb answer so as to avoid getting into a lengthy technical discussion.

see my response above; "dumb answers" are not ok

Your quest for intellectual elitism clearly wouldn't allow that.

I'm not sure what you hope to prove in these posts... would you fill me in on that? It seems that outside your callous locution, we are in agreement. What else do you want?

Vonkaar, I have a lot for respect for you, what you've done, and the skill to which you've done it with. What I iwsh to prove in these posts is that "dumb answers" are not ok just because the average reader is ignorant....in fact, dumb answers are never okay. What if at the university level, professors just gave dumb answers to the students so technical discussions could be avoided? Not much learning would happen, for sure.

feed a man a fish, he eats for a day
TEACH a man to fish, he eats for a lifetime

it is obvious many have learned from the physics, you included.