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BING BUSTED! Copying Google Results.

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bigben6 said:
I'm not claiming it was malicous, but yes there was alot overlap:

I posted this quote once already...


My impression is that bing produced a software with good intentions of making their product better without breaking any laws, but the result is that they have crossed a line, and it should stop, I by no means am implying that bing set out to just use google and regurgitate their results... and remember bing's process would apply to MSN, Yahoo, Ask jeeves, ANY search query on a browser with their toolbar...
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Glad we agree on the good intentions part at least :)

I do disagree that this somehow crossed the line though. To be clear about what Bing is NOT doing: They are NOT scouring google and grabbing their top links and saying "ah ha. These are google's top links, they should be our top links too".
What Bing IS doing: They are letting the users of their toolbar "vote" for links in a manner like "ok 40% of users like to click on pizzahut when searching for pizza so it will be #1, 25% like wikipedia/pizza so it will be #2, 10% like dominos so it will be #3" At least as I understand it. So if there is only 1 user vote for RIM when searching for mbzrxpgjys then so be it, that will be the only page listed -- just like googles results but not as a result of copying them.

I don't think there is anything wrong with this method ending up producing results similar to google. After all wouldn't you expect almost any algorithm to rank pizzahut, dominos, and wikipedia in its top links? I mean any search algorithm that is at least half way doing its job will produce results like that as their top 10 and its not a coincidence. Those websites are the most popular so they get the top spots. Wether a search engine uses "The google algorithm" or letting users vote, both methods, both seperate/different approaches are going to give similar popularity results.
I could go out and poll my friends about different search terms and what websites they think should go with them and make a search engine based on it -- I would probably get similar but less good (due to small sample size) results. Thats really all MS is doing, just on a large scale. And don't forget OPT IN basis.

So as I stated before: for me it really just boils down to a story about how much data MS is collecting about its users. And I'll leave it at that.
 
Like I said, they are effectively taking that data and hiding behind the cloak of user opt in data collection... making the user the scape goat or using them as a shield to say the least...
 
I feel that the chances of Bing returning 12% of a made-up search by Google to be more than enough to consider it more than a coincidence.

That being said, I feel that the algorithm that both search engines use to return results to the end-user is a proprietary entity because it is what separates the company from the competition. Bing influences their searches through user inputs. This is completely different than Bing only using user inputs. Bing has an algorithm that they utilize for bringing the best results to the end-user. This algorithm is appended by influences of user inputs. For Microsoft's Bing search engine to run as a proprietary entity and yet return more than 1-2% similar results of Google's search engine via a specifically rare search request is a cause for concern.

For the two proprietary entities such as Google's search algorithm and Bing's search algorithm to be proprietary is to say that they are overall unique. Sure, programmers will incorporate best practices into their code and have similar sections within the algorithm, but that is about the extent of the similarities that should occur.

Why would Bing do this you ask? Google has been and still is the top dog when it comes to search engines. To be better than the best you have to understand why the best is the best. After that comes the task of becoming better than the best. Some attempt to find their own path and some attempt to cur tale on the success of the leader-of-the-pack. This is all generally known and not an accusation toward Bing, but if they are doing this then I can understand why even though I do not agree with it.
 
So it sounds like Google actually framed Bing. Here's the Bing response: http://www.bing.com/community/site_...e/2011/02/02/setting-the-record-straight.aspx

It actually makes alot of sense and clears up some of those questions like "How crazy unlikely is it that people randomly searched for and clicked on terms like mbzrxpgjys?" Turns out pretty darn likely if Google purposefully spams searches for mbzrxpgjys in Bing Toolbar or however a "click fraud" attack works.

Google’s “experiment” was rigged to manipulate Bing search results through a type of attack also known as “click fraud.” That’s right, the same type of attack employed by spammers on the web to trick consumers and produce bogus search results.
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That didn't clear anything up. All I got from that article was "Nuh uh, they did it". Pointless.
 
DaveHCYJ said:
So it sounds like Google actually framed Bing. Here's the Bing response: http://www.bing.com/community/site_...e/2011/02/02/setting-the-record-straight.aspx

It actually makes alot of sense and clears up some of those questions like "How crazy unlikely is it that people randomly searched for and clicked on terms like mbzrxpgjys?" Turns out pretty darn likely if Google purposefully spams searches for mbzrxpgjys in Bing Toolbar or however a "click fraud" attack works.
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I do not say this to be rude, but it seems like your understanding of the concepts is lagging behind every one elses, you infered we might be conspiracy theorists, perhaps its the opposite and your entierly too truting of major corporations.....


yes google set up a sting, and yes bing got caught in it, but yahoo didnt, msn didnt, alta vista didnt, ask.com didnt.... ONLY BING DID and they are a small player.... IF yahoo had been caught, then certainly they are a bigger target for google than bing, but yahoo DIDNT GET CAUGHT did they?

Microsoft's claim that they released new patches:
At the same time, we have been making steady, quiet progress on core search relevance. In October 2010 we released a series of big, noticeable improvements to Bing’s relevance
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....makes me feel better overall, IF it is true of course, but I have no reason to assume they didn't.
 
thideras said:
That didn't clear anything up. All I got from that article was "Nuh uh, they did it". Pointless.
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I don't think it was completely pointless. It does help explain how words like mbzrxpgjys got into Bing's index.

Yes it does read like "Nuh uh, they did it", but then again the original google aligations read somewhat the same way with some of their engineering whining about "it isn't fair for bing to use click streaming data which allows them to know where users go on our page" or similar. But how it reads asside, it does make alot of sense that the way something like mbzrxpgjys got indexed is by Google generating all the click stream data for it and RIM just like a spammer generating clickstream data for their own bogus "male enhancement" website and trying onto the front search page/to the top link.

I don't think we're getting the full story from either side.

bigben6 said:
I do not say this to be rude, but it seems like your understanding of the concepts is lagging behind every one elses, you infered we might be conspiracy theorists, perhaps its the opposite and your entierly too truting of major corporations.....
Click to expand...

Entirely possible I'm too trusting. I didn't mean to suggest you are a conspiracy theorist. I just meant that this story sounds like one -- where facts seem hazy and the conclusions unlikely. If it were some random startup company that were copying Google I would be more apt to believe it, but MS has the resources to compete with Google. To me it just seems so unlikely they would copy Google's work given the amount of money and people they've sunk into Bing.
 
Either way, with them being the new World Leader, I think we should just embrace Google now so they may spare our lives in the future.

*tinfoil hat*
 
thideras said:
Either way, with them being the new World Leader, I think we should just embrace Google now so they may spare our lives in the future.

*tinfoil hat*
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With all of the analytical capabilities out today I don't want to be on Google's bad side when they overrun Microsoft with their OS and they are neck-and-neck with LINUX distros.
 
tom10167 said:
If Bing gets the exact results as Google, but does so faster, I will use Bing.
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Then, by your own logic, you must buy pirated movies/DVDs because you can get them before the official release.

I find it laughable that anyone is still defending Bing at this point.

Faster? Really?? I defy anyone to claim publicly that they can read search results faster than they are returned on their screen. Personally, I have never known any search engine to return a results page slower than it takes me to click a mouse. In fact, with their new predictive algorithm, Google generally has my results ready before I'm even finished typing the search.
 
mbigna said:
Then, by your own logic, you must buy pirated movies/DVDs because you can get them before the official release.
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Really??? Then how do you explain the fact that I don't?

When I run a serach for something I want to wait as little as possible. I don't really care if Google makes less or more money as a result. That's unfortunate for them, not me.
 
mbigna said:
I find it laughable that anyone is still defending Bing at this point.
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Exactly what I was thinking, ((after reading the whole 1st page) I personally refuse to use bing or even IE for that matter. M$ knows its OS's well....but it has lost its "internet connection".
 
tom10167 said:
Really??? Then how do you explain the fact that I don't?

When I run a serach for something I want to wait as little as possible. I don't really care if Google makes less or more money as a result. That's unfortunate for them, not me.
Click to expand...

It is exactly this callous disregard for the overall health and well being of others, and focus on what serves ME now that has led us to the fantastic economy we are in now...

"who cares if bing is stealing googles results if it helps me"
"Who cars if buying drugs in canada hurts the us economy if it helps me save 5 bucks"
"who cares if im stealing music or movies"
"its not my fault they gave me 5 bucks too much in change"

Me. me. me.... get over yourself and look at the bigger picture, you think the help people give you on this forum allows them ti wait as little as possible, not they LIKE helping other people...
end of rant
 
So do I, and really bing/googlegate will not effect me either, but in principal its wrong, tom apparently only has principals when it effects him directly...
 
pwnmachine said:
MBZRXPGJYS = RIM :confused:
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Google is accusing Bing of results stealing. Bing is now accusing Google of engauged in a version of Click Fraud that spammers use to get links to their bogus/fraudulent websites into the top results for popular words. It just so happens the link google used was RIM and the "popular word" was MBZRXPGJYS.

This has turned very much into a he said she said debacle with Gooogle and Bing pointing fingers at each other. I don't think we've heard the full story yet.
 
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