Ideas for New Format for the CC!

[unolocogringo]

That is very common. That's why we have icons like these smiling bumpers:

Really like the smileys. Might have to snag a few for personal use. If that is acceptable.

 

[Adak]

What infrastructure do we need for the race?
I can offer a website domain. Give the log in/password over to whoever is chosen.
It would be hosted on Pair.com. Fast reliable and supports any software need for the race. I already have account so it would cost like $20.
It would take the stress and load off of your servers.
I also have a friend who can build the site at little to no cost.
I will ask EXT64 to hold off for now.

A lot of us would like to help. If you need ANYTHING to make this happen just post what you need and you might be amazed at all of the volunteers you get.

Thanks. The web master we had last year, (the OCN race Captain), has not been around.

It's pretty much divided into thirds:

1) Get the format and points system chosen. Carefully!

2) Set the servers up to get the data and process it, every hour, 24/7, for the duration of the race (usually 10 days). Data files need to be kept, because Stanford only gives out current data files - not old ones. The file needs to be d/l'd at 10 minutes or so AFTER the hour, so the data will have the update for the previous hour. If you get the data right ON the hour, you'll get old data, still.

3) Keep the race Captains on schedule with their decision making. They will DISCUSS several topics, but only a few will probably be passed as RULES that need to be implemented into the format, point system, and/or the servers.


I don't know if those icons are in the public domain, or not. The guy to ask would be I.M.O.G., the OCF fearless leader.

 

[lilcinw]

to the forum, lilcinw!

The format I'm proposing, DOES encourage a lot more teams to compete. I expect to double the number of teams in the race this year. I'm FOR a race, not FOR a promotional support event challenge.

OK, your first job is to sell your teammates on this EVGA planned race:

[size=4][color="Orange"]
EVGA pulls in  51 Million points per day.
Tom's pulls in  4 Million points per day.
[/size][/color]

You have to fold an EXTRA 47 Million more points per day of the race, to get even with EVGA - and they're not even racing yet. That 51 Million will be 65 Million by race day, EASY.

Without a handicap of any kind, you can get your team interested in being humiliated by a 50 or 60 Million points per day loss, in a race?

Does that strike you as a fair or fun race? ​

The biggest source of ringers, by far, is [H]ardOCP. They have already declined my offer to enter the race, even though every complaint they ever had about it would be gone.

Their team was badly tore up by it, several years ago, and they have a VERY real fear that they will be badly beaten by the crazy strong Tom's Hardware team!

So the "ringers" will be 100% available, and several EVGA'ers have been folding for [H] now, for months. "Supporting" them. Like the #1 in the world by a huge margin, needs support?

I think you missed the following which is what I posted on our thread:
I kind of like the idea of racing classes. You could break it up into 1-5mil, 5-10mil, 10-20mil and 20mil plus. You could then handicap within the classes without creating such large discrepancies.

The main problem here is that if [H] doesn't race then EVGA has no one to compete with. If the classes worked out closely enough then you could have the classes race each other collectively.

Of course it would be ridiculous to pit Tom's against EVGA. That is why I advocate the use of classes to match the teams more evenly. That way the handicapping is kept to a minimum.

 

[pcmaster00]

to the forum, lilcinw!

The format I'm proposing, DOES encourage a lot more teams to compete. I expect to double the number of teams in the race this year. I'm FOR a race, not FOR a promotional support event challenge.

OK, your first job is to sell your teammates on this EVGA planned race:

[size=4][color="Orange"]
EVGA pulls in  51 Million points per day.
Tom's pulls in  4 Million points per day.
[/size][/color]

Why do you keep pointing out EVGA's team PPD difference to other smaller teams? We are not proposing that the only race be an individual points race but we see a points race as being important because the whole whole go of F@H is to add more points to the board. Why shouldn't a small team like Tom's have the goal of trouncing our PPD. Tom's is a HUGH forum and HUGH community. If they can rally troops into a larger team, they can easily squash EVGA and [H]. This is the potential for growth in F@H that the EVGA team sees in a team by team points race. Its 1, count it, 1 goal out of FIVE. Yes it is a lofty goal, but why is it so scary? Do I suspect that EVGA will take the individual team category in a multi-goal/multi-award format, if [H] doesn't participate, yes. But we not just looking at this year and this CC. We are looking at years to come. We want to see if the rest of the teams can agree on a multiple awards for different categories just like the Olympics. The individual points race is just like the Olympics. No one gets a handicap, but upsets are still possible. Why can't we have another 2004 Puerto Rico trouncing a USA basketball team? Why can't we all be inspired by the hard work of a Jamaican bobsled team? Why can't we root for the underdog on the same stage everyone else plays on the other 51 weeks of the year?

This being said, we know that growth of a team is not easy and something that needs to be strived for. We know that moral in a smaller team is harder to build when the goal in insurmountable. That is why we want the other categories to help the smaller teams build on success and make CC something that they all want to look forward to because they have been building their team and "training" for the next year.

You have to fold an EXTRA 47 Million more points per day of the race, to get even with EVGA - and they're not even racing yet. That 51 Million will be 65 Million by race day, EASY.

Without a handicap of any kind, you can get your team interested in being humiliated by a 50 or 60 Million points per day loss, in a race?

Does that strike you as a fair or fun race? ​

Again, focusing on 1 catagory out of 5 proposed. Will this refrain ever stop?

The biggest source of ringers, by far, is [H]ardOCP. They have already declined my offer to enter the race, even though every complaint they ever had about it would be gone.

Their team was badly tore up by it, several years ago, and they have a VERY real fear that they will be badly beaten by the crazy strong Tom's Hardware team!

Who has been talking to [H]? You Adak? Look I know you have the best intentions in trying to expand CC and bringing [H] back into CC would be awesome, but I fear your drive and exuberance is too overwhelming especially when approaching a team that is still licking its wounds from its own internal divisions about CC. Why not have someone who just wants to talk rather than someone who wants to convince work with them? I would be glad to do it, but if I do, I would like to see the discussion be all them proposing a format that they would like with 0 and I mean ZERO outside intervention. Let them tell us what kind of format they want to participate. Wasn't that your goal anyway Adak by going to all these different teams and trying to strike up discussions about CC. Unfortunately I fear your exuberance might have made them worry so much about reopening an old wound in their team.

So the "ringers" will be 100% available, and several EVGA'ers have been folding for [H] now, for months. "Supporting" them. Like the #1 in the world by a huge margin, needs support?

What are you referring to here? Folding@EVGA does have members that will throw some PPD [H]'s way as a thank you for their communities tireless drive to help everyone fold more. They have created special bios versions for 4P motherboards to allow for better PPD output. They have created easy to use Linux images that are prepared for BigAdv folding. They are a true inspiration to our team and if acknowledging that with adding some PDD to their score board is disturbing to you, I'm sorry to see that you feel that way.

 

[pcmaster00]

One of our members at Toms is part of the internal testing team for folding. I ask if he would see about contacting other teams to join.
Reasoning for this is if we can get enough other smaller teams to join, we could pair EVGA with overclockers. This would be a close match as teams to run against Hard. Add a few other smaller teams to group C.
Or maybe pit overclockers Australia against Toms and a few other teams.
then a few smaller teams against a few other smaller teams.
This would achieve a couple of things.

It would eliminate handicapping.
It would allow more teams to win in their category. More winning teams makes more people happy.
The more teams we have competing helps eliminate "Ringer Recruiting". If you switch teams during the race ALL of you points during the race are forfeited towards race totals.
It may entice Hard and EVGA to compete.
Yes a race IS a magnet. But we need to have a format everyone can get behind and promote. The better promoted the more members we attract to folding. Some will only join for the race. Others will become casual folders ,and others will become hard core folders. So regardless of the outcome F@H WINS.

I like your idea on the different brackets for competition. I think it would help remove the necessity of a handicap. Granted I would still like to see someone be able to compete with EVGA if [H] wouldn't partake.

We all like winning. And we all want to be on the winning team. But when it comes to F@H WIN LOSE OR DRAW, if we recruit more folders, in the long run we all win.
I have been passed by a few members on our team lately. I happily congratulate them, because F@H wins in the end.

These are the kinds of things I love to read. This is the kind of discussion that I had hoped to see in these threads across the web. It should be a discussion to come up with something everyone can get behind and not a campaign for a specific format.

 

[pcmaster00]

One of our members at Toms is part of the internal testing team for folding. I ask if he would see about contacting other teams to join.
Reasoning for this is if we can get enough other smaller teams to join, we could pair EVGA with overclockers.

WHAT?​

Oh, you ARE a comedian!

Why are you so against this idea? If it makes a format that everyone likes and can agree on, why not?

 

[Adak]

I think you missed the following which is what I posted on our thread:
I kind of like the idea of racing classes. You could break it up into 1-5mil, 5-10mil, 10-20mil and 20mil plus. You could then handicap within the classes without creating such large discrepancies.

The main problem here is that if [H] doesn't race then EVGA has no one to compete with. If the classes worked out closely enough then you could have the classes race each other collectively.

Of course it would be ridiculous to pit Tom's against EVGA. That is why I advocate the use of classes to match the teams more evenly. That way the handicapping is kept to a minimum.

Here's a quick example of how it might work if [H] doesn't race, and a few teams want to race, together, as a separate team. Note that there is no need to have 3 teams, any number > 1 is fine.



The spreadsheet or program changes the handicap number, and instantly we're good to race.

There is NO "ridiculous" team vs. team pitting. We adjust the handicap, and the race is good to start.

 

[Adak]

These are the kinds of things I love to read. This is the kind of discussion that I had hoped to see in these threads across the web. It should be a discussion to come up with something everyone can get behind and not a campaign for a specific format.

And what would that "discussion for something everyone can get behind", be about?

Oh, a race format!

And what race format would that be?

That would be the EVGA race format, which has no way to control ringers and sandbaggers.

And why is that important for EVGA? Because they have ringers and sandbaggers already in mind, from their Crunching (BOINC) team, and friends in [H]. With no control, a large BOINC team, and now lots of friends in [H] who you have been "supporting" for several months, the win would be in your pocket, before the race ever started.

It's easy to see, if you've been around the CC for a long time. And have a fair memory of CC races. EVGA has made a few (OK, every single one), race proposals, which all result in a definite win for EVGA.

Things you learn from experience with the CC and EVGA.

 

[Adak]

Why are you so against this idea? If it makes a format that everyone likes and can agree on, why not?

They're novice CC racers. They don't see what I see. There's an easy way to exploit the EVGA format.

Do I believe that EVGA will exploit that weakness in the format? Absolutely they will.

Let me ask you: "Why do you think EVGA is proposing a race format that was rejected just last year? And has no way to control "ringers" and "sandbaggers"?

Just a happy co-incidence??

[size=3][b][color="Yellow"]
Viper97 	Vietnam Global Team 	   253,289
Viper97 	[H]ardOCP	 	 6,615,694

texinga7 	[H]ardOCP	 	13,465,513 [/color][/size][/b]

Why is the #2 team "supporting" their rivals [H]ardOCP? 20 Million points is not chicken feed, is it?

Why did Viper97 fold for the Vietnam Global Team during the CC race this year?

Because [H] has a HUGE number of VERY STRONG folders that they can recruit easily now, as "payback" or just "friendship", as "ringers" in the CC. So although EVGA complains bitterly ABOUT "ringers", they are preparing several of them, it appears.

And Viper97 folded for Vietnam Global Team, because they were close enough to beat us, last year, (almost did), and EVGA wasn't.

But you probably can't get away with using your "ringers" if my format is used. Only if some other format is used, with no "ringer" or "sandbagger" controls.

 

[Viper97]

This might explain it.

http://hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1759630&highlight=viper97

and really, 7 mill is chicken feed when doing bigadv as our team is moving slowly into. Here's my record for EVGA:

http://folding.extremeoverclocking.com/user_summary.php?s=&u=560455

The WU I dropped for sbinh team was indeed frustration but it was a single WU... Looks like a big number but if you look at my EOC stats above it really is lower than chicken feed.

Here's the single WU proof:

http://folding.extremeoverclocking.com/search.php

Just plug in my name... it doesn't show my 4th team that I was an accidental part of when I screwed up the team number. Oh well that happens and someone got some points that day. Does that make me a ringer? I don't think so and I don't believe we [EVGA] are in the midst of launching some deep dark conspiracy either.

I will agree with your assessment that EVGA as a team will probably not be part of the CC or what ever it is you call it now, nor will [H] I believe as your post hasn't seen action on their forums since your last message.

'Nuff said.

 

[Adak]

When only 2 members have put in 20 Million points, this isn't just "thanks", and it isn't just "chicken feed", either.

The WU I dropped for sbinh team was indeed frustration but it was a single WU... Looks like a big number but if you look at my EOC stats above it really is lower than chicken feed.

And on ANY other CC, it would have immediately disqualified your entire team.

I will agree with your assessment that EVGA as a team will [not] be part of the CC or what ever it is you call it now, nor will [H] I believe as your post hasn't seen action on their forums since your last message.

'Nuff said.

You've already posted several times on at least two forums, that you won't be racing next year. So why are you here? You're a cheater, willing to throw an entire race if you can, just because you're frustrated.

And what are you frustrated about in the race? Oh, I know! OCF was leading the race!

And that's one big reason I have a low opinion of EVGA members, when it comes to the folding race. They cheat.

 

[Viper97]

You brought me into it... I explained.

Your perceptions are your issue not mine. You can promote it as you wish. However, the truth is what it is and that cannot be changed by you or anyone else.

I won't mention the USS Poo Flinger and the payback for all the teams helping you win the CC. I believe by your definition of cheating that you too would be disqualified. Just my take on things.

I'm not for ringers, that is obvious but to accuse me of formenting or nuturing a group of 'Ninja' like ringers is a bit paranoid in my mind.

Good luck with your race or contest. I hope you truly do pull more folders into the F@H cause.

 

[Adak]

You brought me into it... I explained.

Your perceptions are your issue not mine. You can promote it as you wish. However, the truth is what it is and that cannot be changed by you or anyone else.

And you're an unapologetic cheater.

I won't mention the USS Poo Flinger and the payback for all the teams helping you win the CC. I believe by your definition of cheating that you too would be disqualified. Just my take on things.

Which is a lie. Bringing in outside recruits was perfectly legal. So were paybacks. EVGA did exactly the same thing in 2009, (and won that year), except you never paid them back - welchers!)

I'm not for ringers, that is obvious but to accuse me of formenting or nuturing a group of 'Ninja' like ringers is a bit paranoid in my mind.

I didn't say you were the one with the intent to exploit this weakness. I don't believe you are the conniving type, by nature. You're a reacting type, and thus more open, imo.

Why do you think EVGA is pushing so much, for THEIR format, however? Maybe because they know that using their format, they are in a position to exploit it's weakness, and win the race. It's a foregone conclusion.

Good luck with your race or contest. I hope you truly do pull more folders into the F@H cause.

I'm not for "ringers" either, but if they are legal, and other teams are using them (they were), then we need to play by those same rules.

Most of the teams that will be joining us in the race next year, will be teams that we introduced to the CC, as "ringers".

We will NOT be pulling in more folders into the F@H cause. We will have a fun race - and the RACE will be attracting more people, giving them exposure to what FAH is, etc. That's buzz, and over time, it can add more folders than we ever could, without it. Because it's *fun*, and everybody likes fun.

Of course, it's not fun if it's not a fair race.

 

[Viper97]

Generally when one resorts to name calling there is a loss of credibility in your argument.

Last year was my first (and last CC) so I cannot speak to what happened prior to that time. Had I participated in that challenge and had that been the agreement I would have been upset with the team. I would have kept my promise as I did over at [H] for all the help they gave me and the team as well.

I'm not certain there is an answer anymore for the CC... or lack thereof. It seems to me this whole contest generates way to much angst to be worthwhile. This is why I'm doing my best to lobby the team for forgo the challenge this upcoming year.

A fun race would be good... I have no problem with that. However once again I think it is going to be full of 'not fun' for some members.

I'll let the team captain figure it out but I'll definately move my rigs to another team for a bit or switch to BOINC since I do both for our group. Only if the whole of the team stats are factored in without a sign up into the fold-a-thon just so I can avoid the mental drain if you know what I mean.

This whole silliness really needs to end. Good luck.

 

[pcmaster00]

I do not speak for the whole EVGA team here but I am here to help bring some of our opinions about the proposed formats of CC to the forefront and what some of our community sees as deal breakers. Do I fully agree with every opinion that I am going to bring to the table, no, but I am trying to be a civil conduit for the guys that are exceedingly upset with Adak over on our forums.

...

While I have laid out some specifics from our team here, I want to reiterate that I come here in friendship and with the goal of seeing CC and F@H prosper and grow. I hope we can all continue forward in this spirit and continue to help fight for cures to diseases and not with each other.

@OCF team,

I have done my level best to come here in peace and try to have a civilized conversation. Unfortunately your captain appears to not share that goal. At this time I am going to withdrawal from your forums and engage with other teams to try to salvage EVGA's participation in CC. Good by and good luck.

@Adak,

I know you have strong beliefs and you believe you are showing evidence of some kind of EVGA plot to mess with the outcome of CC. We all have tried to assure you so many times that this is not the case. Because of your attacks against one of my team members, I am taking my leave of this thread and community. If you would like to come to an actual negotiation table and be willing to deal civilly, then PM me back on the EVGA forums.

 

[Adak]

Generally when one resorts to name calling there is a loss of credibility in your argument.

In this case, I posted your stats, and there is none.

Last year was my first (and last CC) so I cannot speak to what happened prior to that time. Had I participated in that challenge and had that been the agreement I would have been upset with the team. I would have kept my promise as I did over at [H] for all the help they gave me and the team as well.

I think you would have. It does help to establish two points:

1) EVGA used the same methods I did - so it's VERY hypocritical to say otherwise.

2) EVGA has a pattern of acting in their own best interests, despite their proffered platitudes to the contrary. They're excessively full of themselves, and frequently full of sh*t.

Aside from the Czech National Team, which was a MASSIVE thief of BOINC points, there is no team I distrust more than EVGA. You have some great folders, for sure, but every proposal EVGA has submitted for the race, has either been a landslide win for EVGA (if it was used), or showed it would be, if it was used, when given race data from the previous year. Every one - a perfect record.

You can't just brush it off as a coincidence, Viper.

I'm not certain there is an answer anymore for the CC... or lack thereof. It seems to me this whole contest generates way to much angst to be worthwhile. This is why I'm doing my best to lobby the team for forgo the challenge this upcoming year.

The race doesn't need to cause the drama it has. The drama comes out because EVGA always wants to promote THEIR winning race format. When your team winning comes before creating a good race format - then you will have angst.

Your lobbying is to show "If it's not my rules, I'll take my ball and go home." "My touchdowns are worth 10 points and yours are worth 6."

You don't have much experience in the CC, so why is it impossible for you to support others, who do?

You know as well as I do that my race format protects the racers from outside interference (somewhat), and it's the only one that can. From being over on [H] and EVGA, you know how strong those "ringers" and "sandbaggers", have become. What are they up to, 10 Million ppd or so (Brilong)?

The bad news is that EVGA may not race next year. You have a lot of good people, and good folders, on your team. If you decided to be friendly, instead of insufferably egotistical, you could really have (and add) some fun and sparkle to the race.

The good news is also that EVGA may not race next year.

A fun race would be good... I have no problem with that. However once again I think it is going to be full of 'not fun' for some members.

Fun fact: teams without the EVGA title in their name, know how to have fun.

I'll let the team captain figure it out but I'll definately move my rigs to another team for a bit or switch to BOINC since I do both for our group. Only if the whole of the team stats are factored in without a sign up into the fold-a-thon just so I can avoid the mental drain if you know what I mean.

This whole silliness really needs to end. Good luck.

The wise man knows "To change your fortunes, change your thoughts". You don't have to be an excessively EVGA - centric folder. Folding for other teams (or Crunching) may help give you a new and broader perspective.

 

[sbinh]

At least he and his team didn't want to kick you out -- evga has been trying to do so to him and others (including me)

 

[sbinh]

Here's a quick example of how it might work if [H] doesn't race, and a few teams want to race, together, as a separate team. Note that there is no need to have 3 teams, any number > 1 is fine.

View attachment 134807

The spreadsheet or program changes the handicap number, and instantly we're good to race.

There is NO "ridiculous" team vs. team pitting. We adjust the handicap, and the race is good to start.

I like this. However, instead of using handicap, use something else.

Let say, each BIG team has 48mil PPD. The race is 10 days .. so total each team would earn 480mil/10days.

Now, whichever BIG team reaches 550mil first would win the race, else winner goes to the BIG team with most points /10 days.

BIG team: means combine teams or evga / [H].


About "ringers" ... are allowed, however, ringer(s) MUST fold for the team (he/she) wants to join for at least 6months (1 month prior the race) ... and NO NO to "rented" folders

If folders want to join the race, either becomes "ringers" or convince their forums to join , or gather a group of folders from their forums.


Don't know if it makes any sense at all ( i don't know what I say anyway ). Just a thought.

 

[Adak]

At least he and his team didn't want to kick you out -- evga has been trying to do so to him and others (including me)

WHAT? ​

You didn't kneel and kiss the EVGA logo?



You are VERY welcome here, sbinh!

Please read over the #10 reply in this thread, and take it to Vietnam Global Team, would you?

I'm trying to move the CC race out of the Jurassic Period, and into the 21st Century. Of special note - some protection from "ringers" and "sandbaggers" is included. Details are being currently worked out, and may differ from the proposal. You would be able to race for VGT however. No worries there.

 

[Adak]

I like this. However, instead of using handicap, use something else.

Let say, each BIG team has 48mil PPD. The race is 10 days .. so total each team would earn 480mil/10days.

Now, whichever BIG team reaches 550mil first would win the race, else winner goes to the BIG team with most points /10 days.

BIG team: means combine teams or evga / [H].

[H] isn't racing according to Musky. My post about it has received no positive replies to racing, and is now on the second page of their forum.

EVGA is doubtful.

About "ringers" ... are allowed, however, ringer(s) MUST fold for the team (he/she) wants to join for at least 6months (1 month prior the race) ... and NO NO to "rented" folders

There will be no "rented" folders if it's accepted. All the folders we "rented" last year, will be racing this year, with their own team.

If folders want to join the race, either becomes "ringers" or convince their forums to join , or gather a group of folders from their forums.


Don't know if it makes any sense at all ( i don't know what I say anyway ). Just a thought.

So make up virtual teams from individuals who want to race, but aren't on a racing team, or not on the same team in FAH?

I hadn't thought of that. No reason it couldn't be done, that I can see right now, but it's extra time and work. Let's call it a maybe.